Is it considered an act of evil to not believe in the Prophet Muhammad and the one God? Are there any general situations where it would not be considered evil?
You are assuming that with intellect, you arrive to the conclusion that Islam is the truth. Whether that in reality is actually reached is not what I want to ask. But in my post above yours, I've already stated that the situation I am asking about is not the one you addressed. The person is convinced, and they have thought it through. They have knowledge about Islam. They do not, as you say, believe Islam is about a man in the sky. Rejecting Islam does not mean the person is incompetent or misunderstanding what it represents, let this be clear. Some fully understand the philosophies of Islam and reject it because of it not convincing them, due to factors I've stated in my post.
Being guided is the greatest blessing. Being clever in philosophy or any other science, or being rich and famous, does not guarantee that the person will be guided. If Allah doesn't want to guide them because of their deeds/hearts, they will not be guided no matter how clever they are.
Look at what the people of Paradise will say (bolded part):
And We shall remove from their hearts any lurking sense of injury;- beneath them will be rivers flowing;- and they shall say: "Praise be to Allah, who hath guided us to this (felicity): never could we have found guidance, had it not been for the guidance of Allah: indeed it was the truth, that the messengers of our Lord brought unto us." And they shall hear the cry: "Behold! the garden before you! Ye have been made its inheritors, for your deeds (of righteousness)."
“O My servants, all of you are astray except for those I have guided, so seek guidance of Me and I shall guide you,” (Muslim)
Nonetheless, anyone who sincerely asks Allah, the Guider to be guided, will be inshaAllah guided.
As for those who strive in Us, We surely guide them to Our paths, and lo! Allah is with the good. (Surah al-Ankabut, 29:69)[/QUOTE]
Those who believe and obscure not their belief by wrongdoing, theirs is safety; and they are rightly guided. (6:86)
Behold! verily on the friends of Allah there is no fear, nor shall they grieve. (10:62)
Btw, just to make it clear. We don't hate anyone, whether a Christian, Jew or Athiest because of their religion or their faith. We only hate those who oppress the innocent people and make mischief in the lands.
Um, no. The question has not been answered. Not in terms of whether Islam sees them as unjust.
In fact in the previous page I'd already stated:
format_quote Originally Posted by منوة الخيال
Allah SWT didn't set Islam as a judge of character rather as a guidance for mankind.
that should be a clear indication that your very premise is faulty.. or perhaps you just can't fathom what is written in a non-linear way?
You're simply telling me I shouldn't waste my time with this, but I didn't ask for your opinion. Your analogies mean nothing to me until you have a clearly written statement saying what their purpose is. Telling me that "Everyone gets their chance at truth and it is up to them what they do with it" in no way helps to understand what Islam thinks of someone in the situation I've already described. Nor does your first post, which I found rather offensive.
As I have stated. Islam is a way of a life, not a judge of character.. I can't help if you have a difficult time understanding basic things. Also, much of what you write is offensive and apologies before hand don't seem to take the edge of. What exactly are you hoping for?
And about the greatest minds not being religious. I see how it would be a gross interpretation to you. That was my error, I should have said many great minds were not religious, not all. If you thought I was implying that religion and great intellect are not compatible, then you've been mistaken. In fact I'm disappointed most people today don't recognize the contributions Muslims have made to science. I'm also disappointed that you're replying to me with insulting and belittling comments such as "Perhaps it pays to read your own posts, before getting so exasperated on why others perceive them a certain way?" I would appreciate it if this was not the mood we resort to. Like I said before, I don't mean to insult Islam nor its followers. In fact I believe Muslims are some of the most respectable people one can meet.
A 'gross interpretation' for me? Should we also be faulted if you can't crystallize what you want to write? Perhaps you should give us choice answers before hand from which we are to choose the one that best suits your needs?
Other than that what you think is compatible or not compatible is inconsequential- If you find what you personally write offensive, then it is prudent to phrase it differently or not write it all together..
Further, how am I 'alleging' when you don't even wish to acknowledge what you'd written as a source of confusion until you're later quoted on it? I don't see what is so offensive about referencing you back to your own post!
It doesn't aggrieve me what non-Muslims think of Islamic contributions to the world... it becomes their problem not mine!
If you truly believe you've answered my question with a clear statement, void of loosely related analogies or cloudy descriptions, that relates to just actions and the situation I described, then please restate it.
See above quote
best,
Last edited by جوري; 07-01-2012 at 06:36 PM.
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
To Hulk
I didn't say someone is claiming that they have an open heart. This is a hypothetical situation that I'm describing. Whether or not you can trust someone when they say they have an open heart is completely irrelevant to what I'm asking. I'm not saying someone told me they have an open heart. I'm saying if they DO have an open heart. There is a difference.
I stated that there is no obvious path to Islam. I am saying this out of my own personal experience with it and through the conversation with others on the subject. I don't see how you can possibly invalidate my claim here without telling me "I know what is going on in your mind better than you do". There is no obvious path to Islam from what I've seen and from what most of the world has seen. If you choose to ignore what people express and----
Again, you didn't read my entire post. This is a hypothetical situation. Stop trying to argue that the situation does not occur in reality or not. The person is not afraid to face humiliation. This was one of the assumptions. What you are doing is changing the situation, and that is not what I am asking you to do. I am asking you to give me an Islamic perspective of the situation I presented, NOT of an altered version of yours that you believe would be more "realistic".
Again, I don't think you understand what I'm trying to do here. I did not claim to be this person. I did not claim anyone personally to be this person. I'm simply giving you a hypothetical situation, and I'm not here to argue whether this situation can or does occur in real life. I have no problem if your opinion is that the situation I'm telling you can never occur. If you believe non-Muslims are incapable of having an opinion that differs from what Islam says without being arrogant or not willing to humiliate themselves, then please keep this view to yourself. Others may find it offensive, including me. This, to me, is just ethnocentric.
If you cannot follow what I've said above then please refrain from replying further to me. I have no interest in what you have to say if it follows the same pattern.
To منوة الخيال
Thank you for sharing this. I think it is clear now what your agenda is. I came here to have an informative conversation/debate with this community, but I've been greeted with hostility and regret because of the clear belittling you are trying to attempt. You show a clear lack of respect for me and my views. You've said upfront that you hold no value in what "non-Muslims" have to say about Islamic civilization.
You are very arrogant in that you dismissed my apology and my desire to show my appreciation for Muslims and their contribution. You obviously don't care what the rest of the world has to say, or what they think of your culture. Maybe this is why you were so quick to speak with a bad tongue. You're giving yourself as well as your brothers and sisters a bad image.
However you've already made it clear that you show no concern for what other cultures or people think of your own. For all I care you can keep uphold this personal flaw all you want. But I am asking you again, politely and respectfully now, do not reply to me, as I have no desire to have a conversation with you.
Again, what I am asking from you is simple. I have no desire to talk to you unless you put effort into responding with respect and concern for my own views. Otherwise, do not reply at all unless you want to make it clear your goals are not good-willed, to say the least.
To Asiyah3
I think I understand what you're saying. God guides those who he wants to guide. But ultimately, does this mean that those people, who Glo has described on the previous page, that find it difficult to reconcile the conflicting conclusions of their intellect and their emotional desire for there to be truth in religion, are not being guided or helped by God?
Or, in other words, are those who sincerely want to believe in God, but cannot get themselves to do so because of their intellect, are being unassisted by God for their own wrong-doing?
I understand what you're saying completely in your last post. I only wish some in this forum would act as though they, Muslims, are not the center of the world.
Thank you for sharing this. I think it is clear now what your agenda is. I came here to have an informative conversation/debate with this community, but I've been greeted with hostility and regret because of the clear belittling you are trying to attempt. You show a clear lack of respect for me and my views. You've said upfront that you hold no value in what "non-Muslims" have to say about Islamic civilization.
I have no agenda. Logic would dictate that if I did, I wouldn't be spending my time on an Islamic forum, while I could be fishing people such as yourself out on your own 'judeo-christian' forums- don't you agree?
and I see absolutely nothing wrong for having no value of what non-Muslims have to say. Why should I concern myself with something so bourgeois?
Our main purpose as Muslims is to please the creator, not ingratiate ourselves for favorable public opinions.
You are very arrogant in that you dismissed my apology and my desire to show my appreciation for Muslims and their contribution. You obviously don't care what the rest of the world has to say, or what they think of your culture. Maybe this is why you were so quick to speak with a bad tongue. You're giving yourself as well as your brothers and sisters a bad image.
However you've already made it clear that you show no concern for what other cultures or people think of your own. For all I care you can keep uphold this personal flaw all you want. But I am asking you again, politely and respectfully now, do not reply to me, as I have no desire to have a conversation with you.
Again, what I am asking from you is simple. I have no desire to talk to you unless you put effort into responding with respect and concern for my own views. Otherwise, do not reply at all unless you want to make it clear your goals are not good-willed, to say the least.
If you had such a desire, should you not show consistency with it, notice I didn't call you 'arrogant', 'disrespectful' or any host of things you've allowed yourself the freedom to use on me. Your behavior here is entirely bipolar heckle and Jeckle if not getting a pre-packaged set of answers -You're welcome not to read what I write.
What I write is so that I can point out the flaw in you premise, not necessarily intending for you to be the primary recipient of my opinion. I have made up my mind a few posts back on your character and first impressions aren't made with attempts..
best,
Last edited by جوري; 07-02-2012 at 03:09 PM.
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
For your information, though it may be that science cannot prove the existence of God (loose definition of God is required), it can certainly prove or disprove religions. And excuse me for asking, but do you have a degree in Quantum Physics? I think not. Do not claim what science can or cannot do without knowing what you're talking about. Tell me, what Do you have a degree in, or significant education in, that makes you think you know enough to tell me what science can or cannot prove? Do you have the slightest clue who you're talking to? No, you do not. I find it incredibly ironic how Muslims claim all other religions are false, and even go to the length of "PROVING" they are false, yet deny the idea that Islam can be proven or disproven. Your religion is not unlike others, even if you want it to be. Your religion is not the center of the world, nor are Muslims.
And why do you make the huge jump between "not being able to disprove God" to "not being able to disprove Islam"? God's existence does NOT equate to Islam's validity. I might as well claim that God's existence is a reason for Christianity's validity.
I did not claim to be this person. I did not claim anyone personally to be this person.
I never said you were.
format_quote Originally Posted by Abraham7
The person is not afraid to face humiliation. This was one of the assumptions.
I see we have a different idea of what humility is. As I said, it is recognising that we are not knowledgable. To you, it seems to mean to be "outwardly humiliated".
You are having a problem here because you are trying to create a situation where the "learner" is perfect and that the issue is within the "subject". If I were to ask you, if someone were to study a math textbook and no matter how hard he tries he just can't accept that 1+1=2. Is the fault in the book or in the learner? You are saying that the learner is "free from error". I am telling you that from the Islamic perspective that is not possible because if the learner had been free from error he would have been able to grasp it. Now you are forcing me to answer "What is Islam's view of a perfect learner who cannot accept Islam?", such a situation is not possible from the Islamic perspective.
That doesn't mean I am saying non-muslims are less intelligent or arrogant. I am saying that those who claim that they have studied Islam may not have really approached it with the proper pre-requisites that they should have.
. Do not claim what science can or cannot do without knowing what you're talking about. Tell me, what Do you have a degree in, or significant education in,
I have a Bachelors in molecular bio, masters and a doctorate.. You're welcome to browse my medical student review in the health and science section as well my frequent 'Question of the month' on the same section.
You're right in that science can prove that Christianity is faulty.. you don't need more than high school math for that though & the core tenet is done for!..
& again, we can't be faulted for simply following your train of thoughts! You're the one who first speaks of how religion views so & so even though by the very definition a religion can only offer you guidance & not judgement, then you jump to speak of the scientists who are mostly not religious, you later eat your words after being quoted on your folly, and somehow we've misunderstood you're meaning? We're not psychics!
best,
Last edited by Insaanah; 07-02-2012 at 05:07 PM.
Reason: Removed last paragraph as unnecessary.
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
To Hulk [...] If you cannot follow what I've said above then please refrain from replying further to me.
format_quote Originally Posted by Abraham7
To منوة الخيال [...] do not reply at all unless you want to make it clear your goals are not good-willed
In that case, nobody will be replying further, seeing as this thread is not going anywhere, and is degenerating into animosity and accusations.
Also, be aware that:
This section is for basic articles explaining Islamic concepts to new Muslims or Non-Muslims, as well as for people to ask questions on the fundamentals of Islam.
Stunningly beautiful adhaan from the Dome of the Rock in Masjid ul Aqsa Download (right click and choose "save target/link as").
This is a clear message for mankind in order that they may be warned thereby, and that they may know that He is only One God, and that those of understanding may take heed (14:52)
Indeed Allah knows, and you know not (16: 74, part)
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