× Register Login What's New! Contact us
A Mormon's Questions Related to Islam!-Sin and Atonement
Results 1 to 13 of 13
  1. #1
    CleansingWater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Gender
    Male
    Religion
    Other
    Posts
    21
    Threads
    4
    Reputation
    230
    Rep Power
    31
    Likes (Given)
    15
    Likes (Received)
    8

    A Mormon's Questions Related to Islam!-Sin and Atonement

    Report bad ads?

    Pasting a question I had in my Intro thread here:

    Question: does anyone know a good resource (article, book, etc) that gives an Islamic perspective on Christianity, or at least specifically the issue of sin and atonement? I feel like in the Old Testament, there is a lot of talk of blood sacrifice for sins, and now Christians claim that Christ came to fulfill all of that with His sacrifice, so I'd be interested in reading how the Muslim view on sin and atonement (or the view that vicarious atonement isn't needed) fits with what the ancient Jews did with blood sacrifice to God. I appreciate the Muslim view on atonement, and that it's derived from the Qur'an, but I guess I'm just trying to understand how it fits with previous Jewish practices (or maybe that just leads to the question of how Islam generally views Judaism and its beliefs and practices, anciently and modern).

    SO, how do Muslims see Islam's understanding of sin and lack of need for blood atonement (which makes sense to me) in the broader Abrahamic religion context, specifically Old Testament practices related to that?

  2. Report bad ads?
  3. #2
    Perseveranze's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Gender
    Male
    Religion
    Islam
    Posts
    1,138
    Threads
    92
    Reputation
    8544
    Rep Power
    52
    Likes (Given)
    48
    Likes (Received)
    500

    Re: A Mormon's Questions Related to Islam!-Sin and Atonement

    Peace,

    Someone will hopefully give you a more detailed answer in the context of Islam and Christianity. But I'll give you the very brief understanding of atonement in Islam;

    In regards to atonement, this is where one of the biggest theological differences between Islam and Christianity occurs, as Muslims do not believe in sacrifice, suffering or blood for the atonement of anyone's sins. Muslims also don't believe that we require a middle-man to communicate with God, or that we need to confess our sins to a priest - both prayer and atonement for sin is done directly between the person and his/her Creator.

    أَلَّا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَىٰ
    That no burdened person (with sins) shall bear the burden (sins) of another. [Qur'an 53:38]

    لَن يَنَالَ اللَّهَ لُحُومُهَا وَلَا دِمَاؤُهَا وَلَٰكِن يَنَالُهُ التَّقْوَىٰ مِنكُمْ
    To God does not reach the flesh or the blood (of animals they sacrifice), but unto Him is acceptable righteousness on your part.
    [Qur'an 22:37]

    مَّنِ اهْتَدَىٰ فَإِنَّمَا يَهْتَدِي لِنَفْسِهِ ۖ وَمَن ضَلَّ فَإِنَّمَا يَضِلُّ عَلَيْهَا ۚ وَلَا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَىٰ ۗ وَمَا كُنَّا مُعَذِّبِينَ حَتَّىٰ نَبْعَثَ رَسُولً
    Whoever is guided is only guided for [the benefit of] his soul. And whoever errs only errs against it. And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And never would We punish until We sent a messenger. [Qur'an 17:15]

    بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ
    Nay, but whosoever surrendereth his purpose to Allah while doing good, his reward is with his Lord; and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. [Qur'an 2:112]
    1 | Likes CleansingWater liked this post
    A Mormon's Questions Related to Islam!-Sin and Atonement

    A Fast Growing Islamic Search Website -

    www.Searching-Islam.com

  4. #3
    Hulk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Gender
    Male
    Religion
    Islam
    Posts
    2,154
    Threads
    107
    Reputation
    20093
    Rep Power
    59
    Likes (Given)
    815
    Likes (Received)
    1455

    Re: A Mormon's Questions Related to Islam!-Sin and Atonement

    I am not an expert on the Bible so there's not much I can say about it but I'd like to share a verse from the Quran in regards to animal sacrifice.

    "It is not their meat nor their blood, that reaches Allah: it is your piety that reaches Him: He has thus made them subject to you, that ye may glorify Allah for His Guidance to you and proclaim the good news to all who do right."
    Quran Sura Al Hajj Verse 37

    The point of an animal sacrifice in the first place may not be that the death/blood of the animal pleases God but that the act itself is a reminder to all of us that God is our Sustainer as the meat of the sacrificed animal is meant to feed the people.

    "To every people did We appoint rites (of sacrifice), that they might celebrate the name of Allah over the sustenance He gave them from animals (fit for food). But your god is One God: submit then your wills to Him (in Islam): and give thou the good news to those who humble themselves,-"
    Quran Sura Al Hajj Verse 24

    In Islam you are forgiven of your sins through sincere repentance.

    There is more that has to be learned on the matter but I suggest learning about the basics of Islam first. Just know that there is no part of Islam that calls for sacrificing an innocent person to be forgiven of your sins.

    God knows best.
    1 | Likes CleansingWater liked this post
    A Mormon's Questions Related to Islam!-Sin and Atonement


  5. #4
    Hulk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Gender
    Male
    Religion
    Islam
    Posts
    2,154
    Threads
    107
    Reputation
    20093
    Rep Power
    59
    Likes (Given)
    815
    Likes (Received)
    1455

    Re: A Mormon's Questions Related to Islam!-Sin and Atonement

    Quote Originally Posted by Perseveranze View Post
    In regards to atonement, this is where one of the biggest theological differences between Islam and Christianity occurs, as Muslims do not believe in sacrifice, suffering or blood for the atonement of anyone's sins.
    To add,

    There are however many ways in which the sins of a muslim is forgiven. People who fall sick or go through hardship, these are forms of which their sins are expiated. Those who take wudu(ablution), this act will also cause a muslim's sins to be forgiven. Walking to the mosque to perform an obligatory prayer would cause your sins to be forgiven. There are many ways in which our sins are being forgiven, some we know of some we don't even know of. But as you may be able to tell, forgiveness of sins often come alongside one's strive to be a better muslim.

    There is also expiation in the form of punishment and this is for communities that are under sharia(none in the world that I know of right now). There are people during the Prophet(peace be upon him)'s time who insisted in being punished for their sins out of fear of being punished in the hereafter instead, this is because receiving the legal punishment in this world assures expiation of the sin(alongside sincere repentance). If you choose to keep your sin a secret then you may do so and still repent and if God wills it you will also be forgiven.

    That last bit relates to sharia which I think is beyond what I can express and also in my opinion currently beyond what you should be learning about at the moment.
    1 | Likes CleansingWater liked this post
    A Mormon's Questions Related to Islam!-Sin and Atonement


  6. Report bad ads?
  7. #5
    Muhammad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    on a Journey...
    Gender
    Male
    Religion
    Islam
    Posts
    8,816
    Threads
    203
    Reputation
    119793
    Rep Power
    148
    Likes (Given)
    424
    Likes (Received)
    3029

    Re: A Mormon's Questions Related to Islam!-Sin and Atonement

    Greetings CleansingWater,

    Welcome to the forum. Here are some older threads which you might find interesting to browse (there might be some I've missed which others can add):

    Salvation and Sin
    http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...ess-islam.html
    Atonement
    Forgiveness vs Atonement
    A Mormon's Questions Related to Islam!-Sin and Atonement




  8. #6
    جوري's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    من ارض الكنانة
    Gender
    Female
    Religion
    Islam
    Posts
    27,759
    Threads
    1260
    Reputation
    246636
    Rep Power
    223
    Likes (Given)
    5578
    Likes (Received)
    6286

    Re: A Mormon's Questions Related to Islam!-Sin and Atonement

    aboard,

    I wanted to give you this link because I noticed you were asking for a Quran.

    http://quran.com/

    it has more than one translation.

    I think you might be interested in the books by M.M Alazami and also Dr. lawrence as well the Amazing Quran by Gary Miller:

    http://www.islamhouse.com/1407/en/en..._Amazing_Quran

    not sure they'll answer your specific question but they're very compassing and comparative!

    all the best,
    1 | Likes CleansingWater liked this post
    A Mormon's Questions Related to Islam!-Sin and Atonement

    Text without context is pretext
    If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him


  9. #7
    Ali Mujahidin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Thailand
    Gender
    Male
    Religion
    Islam
    Posts
    693
    Threads
    8
    Reputation
    4559
    Rep Power
    47
    Likes (Given)
    17
    Likes (Received)
    204

    Re: A Mormon's Questions Related to Islam!-Sin and Atonement

    The others have given you plenty to links to study and ponder upon. Here's my personal take on sin.

    All of us are born pure. Pure as in without sin. Then as we grow up, things change. To keep clear of sin and to do merit is a continous process. In the hereafter, we will be questioned about what we have done with our time on this plane. So we are responsible for our actions here. No one else can answer for us. No one else can take the blame for our actions. Nor can we blame anyone else for our actions.

    Sounds like a pretty fair system to me. What do you think?
    A Mormon's Questions Related to Islam!-Sin and Atonement






    Faith is believing what you cannot see.
    http://areesalaam.com Islam from the viewpoint of a layman

  10. #8
    CleansingWater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Gender
    Male
    Religion
    Other
    Posts
    21
    Threads
    4
    Reputation
    230
    Rep Power
    31
    Likes (Given)
    15
    Likes (Received)
    8

    Re: A Mormon's Questions Related to Islam!-Sin and Atonement

    Quote Originally Posted by Ali Mujahidin View Post
    The others have given you plenty to links to study and ponder upon. Here's my personal take on sin.

    All of us are born pure. Pure as in without sin. Then as we grow up, things change. To keep clear of sin and to do merit is a continous process. In the hereafter, we will be questioned about what we have done with our time on this plane. So we are responsible for our actions here. No one else can answer for us. No one else can take the blame for our actions. Nor can we blame anyone else for our actions.

    Sounds like a pretty fair system to me. What do you think?
    Yes, I definitely agree that it makes sense and sounds like a pretty fair system. I guess that I never really thought much about why a Savior was needed, why we inherit original sin (whether it's believed that we inherit actual sin or guilt, and are to be punished for something we never did), and why blood atonement was needed to atone for our sins and so that we can have forgiveness and eternal life.

  11. #9
    CleansingWater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Gender
    Male
    Religion
    Other
    Posts
    21
    Threads
    4
    Reputation
    230
    Rep Power
    31
    Likes (Given)
    15
    Likes (Received)
    8

    Re: A Mormon's Questions Related to Islam!-Sin and Atonement

    Quote Originally Posted by Muhammad View Post
    Greetings CleansingWater,

    Welcome to the forum. Here are some older threads which you might find interesting to browse (there might be some I've missed which others can add):
    Thank you. I'll slowly make my way through each thread. I already read the Forgiveness vs Atonement thread (suggested by someone else), and found it helpful.

  12. Report bad ads?
  13. #10
    glo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    England
    Gender
    Female
    Religion
    Christianity
    Posts
    8,473
    Threads
    395
    Reputation
    61734
    Rep Power
    113
    Likes (Given)
    1366
    Likes (Received)
    1512

    Re: A Mormon's Questions Related to Islam!-Sin and Atonement

    Welcome to the forum, CleansingWater (I love your name).

    Perhaps you could share the Mormon view on this? I'd be very interested to hear it. Only if you want to, of course. No pressure.
    (It would have to be in the Comparative Religion section though - http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/)
    A Mormon's Questions Related to Islam!-Sin and Atonement

    Peace
    glo

    Here I stand.
    I can do no other.
    May God help me.
    Amen.

    Come, let us worship and bow down •
    and kneel before the Lord our Maker

    [Psalm 95]


  14. #11
    CleansingWater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Gender
    Male
    Religion
    Other
    Posts
    21
    Threads
    4
    Reputation
    230
    Rep Power
    31
    Likes (Given)
    15
    Likes (Received)
    8

    Re: A Mormon's Questions Related to Islam!-Sin and Atonement

    Quote Originally Posted by glo View Post
    Welcome to the forum, CleansingWater (I love your name).

    Perhaps you could share the Mormon view on this? I'd be very interested to hear it. Only if you want to, of course. No pressure.
    (It would have to be in the Comparative Religion section though
    Sure no problem, I started a thread over there on the topic.

  15. #12
    MustafaMc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Mississippi, USA
    Gender
    Male
    Religion
    Islam
    Posts
    3,041
    Threads
    28
    Reputation
    40358
    Rep Power
    100
    Likes (Given)
    956
    Likes (Received)
    1159

    Re: A Mormon's Questions Related to Islam!-Sin and Atonement

    Quote Originally Posted by CleansingWater View Post
    SO, how do Muslims see Islam's understanding of sin and lack of need for blood atonement (which makes sense to me) in the broader Abrahamic religion context, specifically Old Testament practices related to that?
    There is no concept of animal sacrifice or blood atonement in Islam for the remission of sins. We have an animal sacrifice associated with Eid al-Adha and with pilgrimage, but it is a commemoration of Prophet Abraham's (peace be upon him) willingness to sacrifice his son in obedience to Allah (glorified and exalted is He). The central element of hajj is the standing in prayer near Mount Arafat specifically to make supplications for forgiveness and the mercy of Allah (swt). One big difference between Islam and Christianity is the concept of following up a sin with a good deed - extra salah, fasting, charity - in an off-setting manner while at the same time also asking Allah (swt) for forgiveness. Allah (swt) makes many references for mercy and forgiveness to those who believe in Him, do not associate partners with Him and who do good deeds.

    I am unsure about your reference to the OT. Although there are similarities between the Bible and the Qur'an, the Quran was not derived from the Bible nor was Islam a man-made religion from a mix-match of elements in Judaism and Christianity. Any similarities that exist are there as remnants from revelations to the Jews through Moses, Jesus and other prophets that are reflected in the Qur'an and Islam as both were from the same original source - Allah (swt).
    1 | Likes CleansingWater liked this post

  16. #13
    Insaanah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Gender
    Female
    Religion
    Islam
    Posts
    4,449
    Threads
    173
    Reputation
    152324
    Rep Power
    133
    Likes (Given)
    1148
    Likes (Received)
    3304

    Re: A Mormon's Questions Related to Islam!-Sin and Atonement

    Greetings CleansingWater, and a belated welcome to the forum.

    I wonder if I may also touch upon the concept of God in Islam, the main points of which are as follows? The concept is clear, simple, logical, makes sense, and is actually befitting of the Majesty of God:

    • There is only One God. He alone should be worshipped. He is our Creator, Sustainer, Cherisher, and Lord. No being, no object, nothing other than Him, is worthy of prayer/worship.
    • He does not beget, nor is He begotten. He has no sons, daughters, siblings, parents, cousins, or relatives of any sort.
    • He is eternal and does not die.
    • He does not depend on anyone/anything yet we all depend on Him. He is free of all want and need.
    • There is nothing like Him. He is all Hearing, all Seeing, all Knowing, all Powerful, the Creator of the Universe.
    • He did not and does not, dwell in human or animal bodies, nor are there any incarnations of Him. He is not mixed up in His creation in any way.
    • He is not composed of persons, nor a trinity. There are no secondary, lesser, greater, equal, or multiple gods, no intermediaries, and no denying of God's existence either.
    • There are no sharers or associates or parts whatsoever in His exclusive Divinity. Simply, He is One, in every sense.


    Salvation and sin and forgiveness

    With regards to salvation and sin, my understanding is that the whole of Christianity hinges on the fact, that according to Christians, God did not forgive Adam (peace be upon him) for eating from the tree, and that not only Adam but all subsequent generations have to bear a punishment from God, and fell out of grace with God, their relationship with God was severed, and they are born into a state of sin (though I understand this isn't the case in Mormonism). They believe that God expects perfection from humans which humans can never achieve (partly because of the aforementioned sin), thus to atone for our imperfection and inability to meet God's expectation, and to reconcile people to God and repair the severed relationship, and to forgive (but in reality atone) people's sins, the sacrifice of an innocent man (who also happens to be God) and his slow, bloody, and painful death comes into play.

    With Allah forgiving Adam (peace be upon him) and honouring him and guiding him, as per Islam, none of the above is needed. In Islam, there is no concept of original sin, nor of God expecting perfection which cannot be achieved, nor of a broken relationship with God that requires reconciling, nor of ****ation requiring a saviour. No innocent person is made to suffer or die for other's sins.

    In Islam, as Adam and Eve (peace be upon them) asked for forgiveness and were forgiven, so we too ask for Allah's forgiveness for our sins, as He loves for us to turn to Him in repentance, and loves forgiving. This forgiveness comes freely, just by Allah's will, when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent. Forgiveness does not require any type of sacrifice by God, or any purchase price. Both Adam and Eve repented and were forgiven by their Loving, Merciful Lord; and indeed Adam was then chosen to be the first person to receive guidance from Allah, was honoured by Allah, and is counted among all the other Prophets of Islam.

    While guidance and the right way has been shown to us, we, as humans, have the freedom to choose, to err, and to repent sincerely, and should we do so, we will find Allah Kind & Forgiving. For all and any in the posterity of Adam, the door of returning to the right path is always open, prior to death.

    We are required to struggle, and to make effort, and to show our commitment on our part, by believing and doing good deeds, and obeying God, and the teachings he sent His messengers with. Ultimately, salvation is through Allah's mercy.

    It is actually denigrating to God's Power that He should not be able to forgive or remove sins without begetting a son and then sacrificing the son. It ascribes imperfection to God. Perfection is being able to forgive, freely, abundantly, at will. That is perfection. Islam recognises God's power to forgive with just His Will. Some of the other religions seem to claim that forgiveness requires a purchase price and if we can't pay it, somebody else has to pay it on our behalf. In Islam, forgiveness comes without a purchase price or sacrifice. We do not/cannot: buy, sacrifice for, earn or steal it. It comes freely when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent, accepting God's will.

    We strive with faith and deeds and obedience to God, do our best, and trust in His Promise, and His Justice, and hoping for His Mercy.

    For Christians, this may be hard. They believe that by accepting Jesus (peace be upon him) as their saviour they have an assurance of salvation, and view the Islamic position on salvation as being one of uncertainty. As a rough (not exact) analogy, the Christian position, is like one sitting an exam, but somebody has said they'll take all your bad marks for you, and if you let them do that, you'll pass. In the world, this would be viewed as cheating and as unjust. Injustice cannot be ascribed to God. The Islamic position is that of one sitting an exam, doing their best, and then awaiting their results, based on what they've done, and of course hoping for the mercy of God.

    As to Judaism, we believe that God revealed the Torah to Moses and a book called the Injeel to Jesus (peace be upon them both). Both were God's word, scriptures bestowed on the respective prophets. However, over time, people added to/changed the scriptures, so they are no longer the books revealed by God, although fragments of the truth may still survive within them. This is why the Qur'an was revealed, and Allah has promised to preserve it, which is why there will be no need for a new prophet, because the scripture, is, and will remain, in tact. It supersedes the previous scriptures, while being a continuation, confirmation and culmination of the original message contained within them, in its last and final form.

    Allah has mentioned in the Qur'an that some of the strict regulations Jews have to follow were because of their rebellion, and some were self-imposed. Allah knows best if sacrifices for atonement were an original part of the faith, or added later. Now we have an original and unchanged and preserved scripture from God, we don't need to worry about whats in the current Bible and Torah as authored/changed by humans. As Muslims, part of our articles of faith are to believe in all the scriptures that God revealed, including the Torah and Injeel in their original form as revealed by God, even though we haven't seen them and weren't around when they were revealed. And we believe in and follow as our guide, the current and final scripture, the Qur'an, revealed to Prophet Muhammad (peace and salutations of Allah be upon him) who is the prophet who must be followed now and is the Prophet to be followed for all mankind for all time to come.

    Please note that Islam is not a new faith but is the same Ultimate Truth that God revealed to all prophets, including Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them). Thus Islam is not named after a specific person (like Christianity, Buddhism), nor after a certain race or place (like Judaism, Hinduism), but is named by God Himself, and the meaning loosely translates as 'submission to God', which is what every Prophet and their righteous followers did, from amongst all times, all races and all peoples. That in itself is one fraction of the evidence that it was the way of all the Prophets from the beginning.

    As mentioned above, we have an animal sacrifice on the occasion of Eid al Adha to commemorate Prophet Abraham's readiness to sacrifice his son Ishmael (peace be on them both), and the meat is distributed amongst friends, family, neighbours, the poor, and self. Outside of that, sacrifices are sometimes voluntarily made for charity, so that the poor can enjoy some meat. The other reason for animal sacrifices can be in certain instances, when certain mistakes are made during the Hajj pilgrimage for example, and if committed, an animal sacrifice is offered by the one who has made the mistake, and the meat fed to the poor. In other instances, one can fast a certain number of days, to make up for it, depending on the situation. This has been taught to us by the Prophet (peace be upon him).

    Apologies this was a bit long.
    Last edited by Insaanah; 06-17-2013 at 05:46 PM.
    1 | Likes CleansingWater liked this post
    A Mormon's Questions Related to Islam!-Sin and Atonement


    Stunningly beautiful adhaan from the Dome of the Rock in Masjid ul Aqsa
    Download (right click and choose "save target/link as").


    This is a clear message for mankind in order that they may be warned thereby, and that they may know that He is only One God, and that those of understanding may take heed (14:52)


    Indeed Allah knows, and you know not (16: 74, part)

  17. Hide
Hey there! A Mormon's Questions Related to Islam!-Sin and Atonement Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, we remember exactly what you've read, so you always come right back where you left off. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and share your thoughts. A Mormon's Questions Related to Islam!-Sin and Atonement
Sign Up

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
create