Pakistan approves sharia law in Swat valley

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker

Hijrah - you talk the talk but you don't walk the walk

you are perhaps the rudest frenchman i have known and that is saying something.

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker

Can I know what they are?

they are from the deobandi school mostly so although the rulings they follow are within the allowable differences it is more a difference of style, of mood, of following the more harsh ruling within each allowable difference.

saying that, i would still love to live there as having some shariah you agree with is better than none at all.

format_quote Originally Posted by Cern

I guess it would depend on the Muslim. If you look at several countries from Turkey to Saudi Arabia you have varied interpretations of the law. Which interpretation and implementation is correct? There are even Muslims that don't even support Shariah law because they feel the law needs to reformed for modern day is currently to barbaric.



The reason there has been no law was because of the Taliban. When a group of people come into a country ruled by another set of laws and tries to implement their own policies you are going to have violence. We all know that this area has been a battleground these last few years and because of that there has been no order and only chaos.



Pakistan is not allowing Shariah law nation wide. They are only allowing it in Swat. The only reason they are allowing it is because the Taliban has been terrorizing the area for the last few years. Through violence they forced Pakistan to do things their way and now that they have Shariah law they implemented their violent strict form of it into the region. As I read your post it seems that common sense has been turned off. I don't mean that in a insulting way but people preach Islam is peaceful, Islam is against violence and then you have the Taliban. They do not advocate peace. The advocate violence, oppression, and submission.



:enough!:

cern,

talk to any pakistani, it is almost impossible to get anything through the courts there unless you pay bribes to get your case heard, land is stolen and the land registry changed, this has happened to so many people i know in the uk it is shocking.

there is no justice, this has been the case for decades, hardly can be the talibans fault can it?

also, who told you islam means peace? islam means submission to Allah, when it comes to non-muslims we are peaceful with those who are peaceful with us, but in our own lands things are different.

if people are doing things wrong we stop them, that is part of the shariah the state needs to bring about, others have mentioned some of the open sins and evils on the streets of pakistan so we need to put a stop to that.

regarding 'muslims' who dont support the shariah, they are disbelievers and have negated their imaan. there are differences in interpretation but anyone who says they dont want shariah is a kaffir.

format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow

peace Brother,

As I stated in my post I do not have direct contact with Pakistan. However a large percentage of the immigrants to the Austin area are from Pakistan and many are recent. My last face to face contact with them was back in Dec.



Those that I have spoken with speak in favor of shariah law. But, they do not see the taliban as trying to bring about shariah, rather as attempting to use the name of shariah to bring an end to Pakistan.





From what I gathered in my conversations the people (recent immigrants from Pakistan) I spoke to. Are anti-taliban, not anti Shariah. They see the Taliban as having come from Iraq and were originally supporters of the US in the battles against the Russians. After the Taliban were abandoned by the US they were replaced mostly with hoodlums and gangsters that are only interested in violence and destruction. they are more like organized street gangs using the name of shariah to bring about their own desire for anarchy.

I can only repeat what I heard in Dec. But the people I spoke to do not see the Taliban as enforcing Shariah, but as militant teenagers or gang members.




That is a possibility. But, the other side of the coin is also a possibility and the Taliban are not promoting shariah, but using the name of shariah to justify crimes.

I do also see a need for Shariah in much of Pakistan as there is a very large degree of immorality not only from the past governments, but among the people themselves. the use of alcohol is widespread, immorality between men and women is common place. While most people in Pakistan do appear to be good sincere Muslims there are many enclaves were immorality appears to be the rule. However, from what I have heard the Taliban is not the vessel to spread Shariah. the taliban concept of Shariah does not seem to be Shariah, if what I have been told is true.



I doubt if either of us can say what is the truth about the Taliban as neither of us is living in the SWAT Region. I can understand you have heard a different view of the Taliban, which differs from the view I heard. but, I doubt if either of us can know for certain what is true at this time. If I was certain the truth was what you have heard, I too would support the Taliban. But, from what I have heard the Taliban seems to be a threat to Islam in Pakistan.

i dont want to offend pakistanis but when it comes to international affairs some of them, especially their newspapers columnists and other informers of public opinion are quite often delusional and paranoid, so they see everything that happens as plots and plans against them.

so this is why you get the mumbai attacks, pakistani nationals and most pakistanis still telling you it is an indian plot or the israelis did it.

i am not saying the indians, israelis, iranians etc are not out to get pakistan, just that this theory of the taliban being against shariah would be funny if so many people didnt take it seriously.

so the ones who are fighting for shariah are actually secretly against it and working for the kuffar and the ones who are openly allied to the kuffar and are fighting against shariah are the ones who are correct... quite insane reasoning but if you read pakistani newspapers or speak to pakistanis even in the west this is their reasoning and ideas.

could i ask why you think the taliban are not bringing in shariah? i agree that sometimes gangsters and wannabees do bad things in the name of the taliban but the movement itself, why do you feel they are not bringing in shariah? can you point to anything which would suggest they are not to back up that point of view? do you have any concrete proof or just feelings from pakistanis?

i find that almost always it can be shown that the taliban have acted correctly or it can be shown they've acted with the best intention with instances are brought up, or the person objecting has not understand the islamic reasoning behind their action so label it unislamic, and the few times this is not the case are not enough for me to not support them as overall they good, overall they are fighting for Allah and what right do i living in the comfort of the west have to judge them for a few mistakes when i have not been through the circumstances they have.

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker

Do you have some Islamic text which supports that claim?

they are kuffar because they deny Allah's right as sole legislater, as ordered in the Quran and if a muslim denies one ayat then they are a kaffir.

it is like saying they or others are right and Allah is wrong, craziness (at least from a believers point of view)

format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk

they are kuffar because they deny Allah's right as sole legislater, as ordered in the Quran

Do you have the specific ayah for this akhee? Not that I don't believe you, but it is useful knowledge.

format_quote Originally Posted by Osman

Do you have the specific ayah for this akhee? Not that I don't believe you, but it is useful knowledge.

And He associates in His rule no one
18:62

Judgment belongs only to Allah
12:40

“And it is known by necessity in the Deen of the Muslims and by the agreement of all the Muslims that whoever follows a Sharee'ah other than the Sharee'ah of Muhammad then he is a Kaafir and it is like the Kufr of the one who believes in some of the Book and disbelieves in some of the Book. Al-Fataawa, Vol. 28/ 524”
-Sheikh ul Islam ibn Taymiyyah

format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint

How hard can it be to learn 2 languages and besides you only need to know the basics and leanr the rest there and take out a loan.
the only real problem is getting a lgal permit to live there, a resident visa or something.
But anyway, hijra is a hijra not a horse.

i agree normally it easy for people, but you are talking to someone who was in the top classes for every subject but spanish... where i was in the bottom class.

i agree the legal permit thing is a problem, but if you can show you have savings, or an income then it isnt in most places.

format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk

And He associates in His rule no one
18:62

Judgment belongs only to Allah
12:40

“And it is known by necessity in the Deen of the Muslims and by the agreement of all the Muslims that whoever follows a Sharee'ah other than the Sharee'ah of Muhammad then he is a Kaafir and it is like the Kufr of the one who believes in some of the Book and disbelieves in some of the Book. Al-Fataawa, Vol. 28/ 524”
-Sheikh ul Islam ibn Taymiyyah

JazakAllahu Khayran. That makes it crystal clear.

format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk

i dont want to offend pakistanis but when it comes to international affairs some of them, especially their newspapers columnists and other informers of public opinion are quite often delusional and paranoid, so they see everything that happens as plots and plans against them.

so this is why you get the mumbai attacks, pakistani nationals and most pakistanis still telling you it is an indian plot or the israelis did it.

i am not saying the indians, israelis, iranians etc are not out to get pakistan, just that this theory of the taliban being against shariah would be funny if so many people didnt take it seriously.

so the ones who are fighting for shariah are actually secretly against it and working for the kuffar and the ones who are openly allied to the kuffar and are fighting against shariah are the ones who are correct... quite insane reasoning but if you read pakistani newspapers or speak to pakistanis even in the west this is their reasoning and ideas.

could i ask why you think the taliban are not bringing in shariah? i agree that sometimes gangsters and wannabees do bad things in the name of the taliban but the movement itself, why do you feel they are not bringing in shariah? can you point to anything which would suggest they are not to back up that point of view? do you have any concrete proof or just feelings from pakistanis?

i find that almost always it can be shown that the taliban have acted correctly or it can be shown they've acted with the best intention with instances are brought up, or the person objecting has not understand the islamic reasoning behind their action so label it unislamic, and the few times this is not the case are not enough for me to not support them as overall they good, overall they are fighting for Allah and what right do i living in the comfort of the west have to judge them for a few mistakes when i have not been through the circumstances they have.

In spite of my posts often being contrary to your, I do hope you know I have the highest respect for your willingness to stand up for what you believe and your sincerity in pursuing what you see as truth.

I do know that the people we have in the US from Pakistan have been received in the US differently then they have been in the UK. Nearly all of the people from Pakistan here were highly successful people in Pakistan and left primarily because of the past governments. They are quite successful here also, most being Doctors or business owners, along with many Imams that have established Masjids here.

My son-in-law has a very successful export business and imports many Pakistani goods here for his US store. Mostly things like traditional Pakistan food and clothing. He returns to Pakistan for a least one month each year. He desires to live under Sharia as do most of the Pakistanis here also do. But they see little chance of Sharia being implemented in Pakistan. In the US at least for civil law sharia law is permitted in most states,provided all parties agree. That is not true for all States, but Texas is one of the states that does permit it for civil cases.

Also local communities do have the right to establish local laws for their own communities. Which is done in the larger Pakistan communities. Local government in the US often differs from State or Federal law and as long as it does not interfere with with any national issues it is permitted. Other examples: The Amish and Mennonites live under their own laws in their own communities. I currently live on a Native American Reservation. The Reservations are governed under Tribal Law and not US law. the rez I live on is under the sioux Nation and the reservation is seen as being the "Lakota Sioux Nation" yet it is still in the USA and the people hold all of the rights of any US citizen. so it can not be said that Shariah can not be implimented in the USA. I believe their will be Shariah local governments in the USA before Shariah is a reality in most of today's predominantly Muslim countries.

format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk

could i ask why you think the taliban are not bringing in shariah? i agree that sometimes gangsters and wannabees do bad things in the name of the taliban but the movement itself, why do you feel they are not bringing in shariah? can you point to anything which would suggest they are not to back up that point of view? do you have any concrete proof or just feelings from pakistanis?

The Taliban movement as it actually was for many years, is very honorable and very good. Many of the Pakistanis, I know, believe the Taliban in Pakistan are Taliban in name only and are not acting for Islam but for political purposes. what they see is:

1. the only people they fight are Muslims

2. They are striking fear into the rural Muslims, leading them to become more supportive of foreign intervention in Pakistan affairs

3. None of the known Taliban in the SWAT region are either Pakistani or Afghanistani, but seem to be foreigners.

Getting to your the last question.

"do you have any concrete proof or just feelings from pakistanis?"

that is all I have to go by. It is virtually impossible to get any unbiased word about Pakistan. There used to be an Urdu TV channal, from Karachi I used to watch in Austin, but that also can not be said to be free from bias.

I know your view of the Taliban in Pakistan is quite the opposite of what I see. Perhaps you can share some of your sources that lead your opinion to be the opposite of what I get told.

format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow

In spite of my posts often being contrary to your, I do hope you know I have the highest respect for your willingness to stand up for what you believe and your sincerity in pursuing what you see as truth.

I do know that the people we have in the US from Pakistan have been received in the US differently then they have been in the UK. Nearly all of the people from Pakistan here were highly successful people in Pakistan and left primarily because of the past governments. They are quite successful here also, most being Doctors or business owners, along with many Imams that have established Masjids here.

My son-in-law has a very successful export business and imports many Pakistani goods here for his US store. Mostly things like traditional Pakistan food and clothing. He returns to Pakistan for a least one month each year. He desires to live under Sharia as do most of the Pakistanis here also do. But they see little chance of Sharia being implemented in Pakistan. In the US at least for civil law sharia law is permitted in most states,provided all parties agree. That is not true for all States, but Texas is one of the states that does permit it for civil cases.

Also local communities do have the right to establish local laws for their own communities. Which is done in the larger Pakistan communities. Local government in the US often differs from State or Federal law and as long as it does not interfere with with any national issues it is permitted. Other examples: The Amish and Mennonites live under their own laws in their own communities. I currently live on a Native American Reservation. The Reservations are governed under Tribal Law and not US law. the rez I live on is under the sioux Nation and the reservation is seen as being the "Lakota Sioux Nation" yet it is still in the USA and the people hold all of the rights of any US citizen. so it can not be said that Shariah can not be implimented in the USA. I believe their will be Shariah local governments in the USA before Shariah is a reality in most of today's predominantly Muslim countries.



The Taliban movement as it actually was for many years, is very honorable and very good. Many of the Pakistanis, I know, believe the Taliban in Pakistan are Taliban in name only and are not acting for Islam but for political purposes. what they see is:

1. the only people they fight are Muslims

2. They are striking fear into the rural Muslims, leading them to become more supportive of foreign intervention in Pakistan affairs

3. None of the known Taliban in the SWAT region are either Pakistani or Afghanistani, but seem to be foreigners.

Getting to your the last question. that is all I have to go by. It is virtually impossible to get any unbiased word about Pakistan. There used to be an Urdu TV channal, from Karachi I used to watch in Austin, but that also can not be said to be free from bias.

I know your view of the Taliban in Pakistan is quite the opposite of what I see. Perhaps you can share some of your sources that lead your opinion to be the opposite of what I get told.

if i deal with your last point first...

most of my friends in the city i used to live in are pakistani or afghan pathans, the masjid i attended mostly and where i said my shahadah was predominately pathan though with about 40-50% other pakistani, arab, somali and revert (in that order) with a few omanis, bengalis, nigerians and others thrown into the mix.

even though it was very pathan in character and so extremely friendly to everyone but before anyone things i have been blinded by pathan nationalism into supporting the taliban, the imam is gujarati and the assistant imam is bengali, the muazzin somali, head of dawah was a revert so hardly nationalistic.

so most of my info is simular to your's in that it is formed from the opinions of others that they have told me about themselves, their own personal experiences and the experiences of their families back in pakistan and afghanistan.

but i also have gone out of my way to inform myself from other sources, speak to those who travel there themselves rather than rely on news sources from the kuffar or secular muslims,

so i have met many people who have lived and travelled under the taliban rule, people who i would trust with my life without a worry.

they are also in many cases like me wanting to make hijrah, some have already gone, some are in the process of making preparations so they keep themselves informed and up to date like i do and we all share information not in passing but actively seeking it and passing it on.

so for a non-pathan, no urdu speaker i think i am about as informed as it is possible to be about the situation.

now dealing with some of your other points...

1. the only people they fight are Muslims

a muslim who opposes the shariah, fights for a government who opposes the shariah or takes their side is by definition a kaffir as he has done kufr known by necessity.

the fataawah of ibn taymiyyah and many of the ulema of the past are clear on this matter when dealing with the tartars, who also claimed islam, he ruled that their blood, their families and property were all halal for the mujahideen to take, as well as this he made the same ruling for all those who supported them.

2. They are striking fear into the rural Muslims, leading them to become more supportive of foreign intervention in Pakistan affairs

this is as hardly true, most against even the kuffar media are saying the people are broadly supportive of their efforts. smacks of pakistani secular elite and their paranoia again to be honest.

because to them the true muslims are the ones who are really and openly siding with the kuffar, and those who oppose them must be in some secret pact with the kuffar.

3. None of the known Taliban in the SWAT region are either Pakistani or Afghanistani, but seem to be foreigners.

yes the pakistani taliban are different, they have a much greater % of tribesman and less of ulema and students of knowledge and so i would agree they can tend to come across a little more OTT and make more mistakes.

but they still respect mullah muhammad omar as amir ul mumineen, follow his instructions and orders so are effectly a different branch of the same organisation.

their goal is to establish islam in the tribal areas and afghanistan but with no intention of stopping there, also taking over the whole of pakistan and other areas also.

so they are not seperate, they are the same. they include foreign fighters, but locals also, indeed predominately locals as even the kuffar news sources report.

there are uzbeks, arabs, chinese, even western reverts in their ranks. but wouldnt it be more worrying if they didnt? wouldnt that make them more nationalistic and less an islamic movement?

were the armies of muhammad (saws) less islamic for having bilal and salman al farsi (ra) as well as many others in their ranks?

finally,
now saying you can have shariah in the US is not really true, what you can have is some aspects of family law in the shariah, but you cant have the whole package.

in just the same way as those who say you can practice islam in the west are not truthful as you cannot perform many acts which are fard nor can you avoid all the matters which are haram.

format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint

How long have you been studying arabic/Urdu?

about a year and a half, but my teacher ended up starting the course again due to lack of attendence from others but feel am starting to get somewhere and have a grasp of basic grammar.

format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint

Basics is all you need, you'll be fluent in a heartbeat once you get there especially if English isn't a second language and you're forced to do with what you got.
I think you're good to go.

thanks for your kind thoughts, well im still in need of about 9k sterling travel and settling money, so have a wip round and tell them its a sure way of getting rid on an islamic radical from the uk.