Muslim "terrorism" Vs. Western "social culture"

**ChOcCi** · 09-25-2009

This was an interesting debate brought up on the other thread and unfortunately, it could not be elaborated since the thread went off topic.

Alright, now the thing is, ALL of us Muslims here DO mind when the western world calls us "terrorists" right? Be it because of their propaganda, or because of our acts (which is not the case) us Muslims HAVE had our reputation go down due to the actions done by the groups such the Taliban who perform sins in the name of OUR religion. Their actions DID make our religion come across as wrong and ever since then, the Western world never stopped calling us terrorists and till today we fight against this injustice as what they say is wrong and we are NOT terrorists although in the modern times (immediate present) only Muslims have had an "islamic group" who performed terror in the name of our religion (Taliban). In this aspect, the other religions come off as clean as they DO have terrorists, but hardly do they perform crime in the name of religion.

But look at us. Everytime we talk about the west, we ALWAYS go on like how shallow they are, how they are like public property, they have no shame and freely go to bed with anyone, they do drugs, etc.

How can we expect them to stop calling us terrorists, if we dont stop calling them these? Fact is, MANY of the muslim population (even the ones who arent living in the west) perform the same act as them sitting here in our "Muslim countries".

What the most of their population does, is not right. But what we do, is not right either. If they do the wrong thing, we must try to correct them, but you can NEVER correct someone if you constantly criticize them without any will to show them the right path. Thats what we do all the time.

So we feel bad when they wrongfully call us terrorists right? What about the people in the west, the ones who DO stay away from these activities, how do they feel when we talk about them in this way?

Islam has taught us to be kind to everyone and to be nice. Not to go about flaming people like that. So why are we still doing this? Instead of badmouthing the western people, we should instead try to make them understand that what they are doing is wrong.

Think of it this way, suppose there are political parties. Now one party is democratic while the other is communist. Now, obvious the democratic party has the advantage due to its features so the democratic party and the communist party, CONSTANTLY badmouths each other but it is the democratic party who wants the communist party to stop bad mouthing about them.

Do you ACTUALLY believe the communist party will stop? No, the communists arent asking the democrats to stop bad mouthing them either so they have no obligations to keep going. But since the democrats want the communists to stop bad mouthing, the democrats should be the FIRST people to stop, and show the communists that they can be good people in order for the communists to stop their wrong doing.

In this case, we are the democrats, they are the communists. Our ideology and form of Government is greatly superior, but we are stooping down in the same level as them in order to badmouth. WE SHOULD STOP.

As long as we associate the western people with things like shallowness, sinful adultery, drugs, etc. The western people are not obligated to call us Muslims - terrorists.

If we want THEM to change, WE OURSELVES have to change first.

This is the point I am trying to make.

**Eliphaz** · 09-25-2009

Originally Posted by ChOcCi

Amani, disregarding western propaganda, havent you heard what the Taliban did to Afganistan after they drove out the russians?

It was far worse than what Russia even did to the country. They murdered in the name of Islam. THAT is terrorism above all else.

Only Allah has the right to take lives. Not us.

Chocci, bro, please read the Qur'an.

“…take not life, which God hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.” [Al-Qur’an 6:151]

It permits killing another in self defense. As Allah says in the Qur'an, many synagogues and churches and mosques glorifying His name would have been destroyed if people did not defend themselves.

This sanctity of life thing is all great and well if humans are saints, but unfortunately the real situation in the world is that there are and will always be wars for many reasons.

If Muslims did not defend themselves, do you think Islam would have survived the 7th century?

**ChOcCi** · 09-25-2009

Omar, try to understand that I am not pulling these out of the air. I heard these stories of Talibans from an Afgan himself about how Talibans KILLED hazarahs in Afganistan for NO reason at all and how they killing people for "supposedly sinning" in order to take over their houses, etc... They probably even killed women for being raped or something. This is terrorism man. The taliban did right when they liberated Afganistan. They ONLY did wrong after that.

Even Bangladesh has a terrorist "Islamic group" called JMB. They bomb all places they consider "unholy" or try to kill people who are stepping in their way in politics.

Terrorism DOES exist in EVERY religion. The problem is, unfortunately these groups commit their crimes in the name of our religion. They are not true Muslims but followers of Shaitan trying to put dirt on our name.

**ieshia** · 09-25-2009

Originally Posted by ChOcCi

hmm, actually, it is natural for everyone to want to live in the western culture, but the thing is, Islam forbids us to do the things a lot of people in the west commonly do so to be honest, although id rather live by the western code, I would do my best to force myself from going into their culture too much because in the absolute end, it will only bring me harm even if its fun and good for me in the short run.

The problem with me is, I like some others, think too much of the short run. Its true, I always go about every now and then about how Islam is TOO strict or how some things should be allowed to be, but in the end, I know that the things I want to be made allowed, are STILL harmful or wrong in some way or the other and Islam makes sure we stay away from these things, even if it is crazily strict.
But in the end, if we make the sacrifice and stay away from forbidden things, we can easily surpass 70 years of pain on earth with an eternity of joy in Heaven.
I actually have to teach this to myself first, but I do my best not to come across as a total hypocrite ^_^

So my point was, the safe way is the Muslim community way, the hard way is the western way as unfortunately, Islam forbids majority of the western culture to us.

For me, i don't feel the rules to be too strict, i think they make sense. The acts we can't do are because they are harmful. You don't even need religion for that. If you take religion out and just do what is good/right and what's bad, you will probably be following Islam(with the exception of salat, hajj, Fasting or any type of worship to show god our gratitude). When religion becomes difficult is when people make it hard on their self, and fall prey to uncivilized behavior. Especially when people start to read the words of the Quran word for word, rather than understanding the point behind why what was said. A lot written in the Quran is there so people of that time could understand it rather than thinking it's all fairytale talk. Words in the Quran obviously helps us set the morals so everyone can understand them, before someone is old enough to gain knowledge to answer the Why about everything god asked us to do.

Coming back to eastern and western culture, again western culture is better in my opinion. The western culture allows us to choose, and make our own decisions. I know most people in the west end up choosing the more harmful path for the long run but there are also those who choose the path that will be better in the long run even if it's not as appealing right now. Just like in Islam, random people have no right to force anything on someone and we are given a brain by god so we can choose. Oppose to the eastern culture where robots are demanded instead of people so they will do as commanded without having options or right to choose.

When it comes to Religion, Islam takes the cake, because it is the most fair and the one that makes sense unlike any other major religion that i have studied. I can't really say the same about the followers though.

**ieshia** · 09-25-2009

Originally Posted by Omar_21:30

Chocci, bro, please read the Qur'an.

“…take not life, which God hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.” [Al-Qur’an 6:151]

It permits killing another in self defense. As Allah says in the Qur'an, many synagogues and churches and mosques glorifying His name would have been destroyed if people did not defend themselves.

This sanctity of life thing is all great and well if humans are saints, but unfortunately the real situation in the world is that there are and will always be wars for many reasons.

If Muslims did not defend themselves, do you think Islam would have survived the 7th century?

When was there ever a war against Islam going on in the past decade? I must have slept through that. The only people hurting Islam are the terrorist groups who are trying to misguide people of Islam into something made up by those uneducated terrorists. The people you're trying to defend right now. All they did was everything against the teaching of the quran and then they tried to pass their acts as justice and tried to manipulate people into believing that is the right way. They committed one of the biggest sin there by misguiding people into some weird religion they made up their selves. They're nothing but huge gangsters who want to spread terror.

I agree that it's okay to defend your self and no country or person who does is wrong by any means, BUT a criminal has no right to that. If someone shoots me in the leg and in self defense i shoot the person back, It doesn't give that person the right to practice self defense by shooting my head off.

**ChOcCi** · 09-25-2009

Originally Posted by ieshia

When was there ever a war against Islam going on in the past decade? I must have slept through that. The only people hurting Islam are the terrorist groups who are trying to misguide people of Islam into something made up by those uneducated terrorists. The people you're trying to defend right now. All they did was everything against the teaching of the quran and then they tried to pass their acts as justice and tried to manipulate people into believing that is the right way. They committed one of the biggest sin there by misguiding people into some weird religion they made up their selves. They're nothing but huge gangsters who want to spread terror.

I agree that it's okay to defend your self and no country or person who does is wrong by any means, BUT a criminal has no right to that. If someone shoots me in the leg and in self defense i shoot the person back, It doesn't give that person the right to practice self defense by shooting my head off.

haha nice analogy

I completely agree with you ^_^

**ieshia** · 09-25-2009

Originally Posted by ChOcCi

haha nice analogy

I completely agree with you ^_^

haha
I wish there a high five smiley on here

**rpwelton** · 09-25-2009

...............

**Eliphaz** · 09-26-2009

Originally Posted by ChOcCi

Omar, try to understand that I am not pulling these out of the air. I heard these stories of Talibans from an Afgan himself about how Talibans KILLED hazarahs in Afganistan for NO reason at all and how they killing people for "supposedly sinning" in order to take over their houses, etc...

Chocci, please point out where I defended the Taliban. I was simply referring to your statement "Only Allah has the right to take lives, not us" and pointing out to you how, in fact, Allah swt has given Muslims the right to fight, but purely in self-defence. This obviously excludes acts of terrorism, which I think this thread was originally about...

Originally Posted by ieshia

When was there ever a war against Islam going on in the past decade? I must have slept through that. The only people hurting Islam are the terrorist groups who are trying to misguide people of Islam into something made up by those uneducated terrorists. The people you're trying to defend right now.

Again, ieshia, please read my post. Where am I defending terrorists?

Please read before posting. As for the rest of your post, I don't even know where to start!

Originally Posted by rpwelton

...............

My thoughts exactly.

**Eliphaz** · 09-26-2009

Originally Posted by rpwelton

We should always act with good manners and behave well towards others, whether they be Muslims or non-Muslims. However, we should not go to the extent where we seek to appease them and make them like us by submitting to their will.

For instance, most of the Western governments want all Muslims to become secular like the Christians have. Of course they don't mind that we pray 5 times a day, but they'd rather we lose our desire to see Shari'a law implemented and to live by the laws of God.

Many Muslims around the world have already given into this and have left a good part of their deen behind them. This is not the right attitude; we need to be steadfast in our religion and hold true to every aspect, no matter how displeasing it is to the non-Muslims.

The most amazing thing is no matter how hard they bash Islam, call us terrorists or the like, people are still coming to Islam in droves. We need to dispel these false notions of extremism as much as we can and give da'wah, but know that this religion is succeeding because of Allah, not because of us.

exactly...

**S_87** · 09-26-2009

Originally Posted by ChOcCi

Amani, disregarding western propaganda, havent you heard what the Taliban did to Afganistan after they drove out the russians?

Only Allah has the right to take lives. Not us.

yeh but it seems what i heard and you heard is different.

and as for your last comment. in what context? is there such a thing as jihad to you?

Let's see not allowing women to get an education(when in the quran it says we are all to get an education. Prophet Muhammad had said it multiple times how men and women all should be educated). Also killing all innocent people who try to talk against their rule is usually considered a bad thing. All the human right violations..The list could go on for ever, but it's pretty sick that you tried to defend someone like that

where besides from propaganda have you heard they denied women education? they had to build a destroyed country from scratch with not that much money! maybe the west should have also reported how they built women only hospitals..but oh no that might make them sound good

and yes i am well aware of the hadith that states education is a must for both men and women

and killing a person who stands up against shariah and tries to disrupt people who want shariah- well that would be treason against country and war against Allah. so killing such a person? being bad?

human rights also considers the punishment for zina ordered in the Quran to be a violation. would you like to comment on that?

and also, what the taliban di u may find in places like saudi, but no ones complaining because of the $$ and black gold. so its inconsistent

**Najm** · 09-26-2009

Originally Posted by ChOcCi

Yes, what about the people who dont do these?

And trust me, the west is pretty clean with bathroom etiquette compared to what I hear about / see in African and South Asian Muslim countries.

Ive been to USA plenty of times and I didnt see a SINGLE person there not using soap after they finish using the toilet. Yes, in public toilets. And from what is common knowledge, European bathroom etiquette is superior to the Americans so I have no idea where you got that idea from.

But yes, one thing they do that I dont agree with is not applying water after they finish erm, releasing their wastes. Other than that, they ALWAYS wash their hands after they urinate AND after they finish releasing waste..

So see? US Muslims have assumed these things of them which are not true through indirect means of propaganda which has spread because we bad mouth them.

If you DO see people not washing hands after using the bathroom, those people are usually the South Asians (unfortunately) from the countries such as India, Bangladesh, etc.

Did you people hear about the story when Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) went 3 weeks (or 1 week, I dont remember which) without having any sweets in order to advise a child that having sweets is wrong?

So in this situation, we MUST do the same. We must stop badmouthing them (even if we are right) in order for them to stop badmouthing us. So lets begin this motion. Let us change ourselves first before we ask them to do the same as THIS would be the right thing to do.

AsSalamOAlaikum WaRehmatuAllah WaBarkatuhu

Again i spoke generally about the "west", not about each and every individual person. And regarding pubilc toilets, i fully stand by my comments. I worked at an international airport as well as service station found on the motoway, and in my time i have got to know the cleaners and all the toilets issues they brought (hence i have stated). And i am more than sure than generally the toilet ettiquettes in the "muslim countries" are better than in the west.

^^ This i speak about common, Further i stated about anti social behaviour, clubbing, pubbing, adultery, drugs etc etc < these are common behaviour in the west. And your saying that these are not "true" but a mere propaganda, and your asking us not to generalize, because there are "some" who dont.

Further it "seems" you are telling us to change "ourselves" to change them. But what you should be saying....

"change ourselves for the sake of Allah!!"

Above everything we should seek the pleasure of Allah, not to change the thinking of the west. You say Islam teach us to be kind and nice, and your correct, but that doesnt mean to submit to their will. If your intention is to change yourself to change the west, then you may end up changing your religion.

I dont really understand, what you mean by bad mouthing. We as a nation speak good and forbid evil. We as a nation fight against injustice. We all want to please Allah and if doing so we are called names and so forth, then so be it.

FiAmaaniAllah

**Najm** · 09-26-2009

Originally Posted by ChOcCi

Well, why not be the better man and show them that we will respond to their harsh with sweeter words. Wouldnt this be the right thing to do?

And lets not forget, it is the Muslim media that perpetuate the image and idea of western culture as filthy.

Although we are right in saying so, and they are wrong, we should still not say something that would increase their hatred against us. We are all pouring fat into fire.

As Muslims, it is our job to show the world that we are the better people so why dont we start doing this first and set an example? This will no doubts aid in clearing our "bad" name.

AsSalamOAlaikum WaRehmatuAllah WaBarkatuhu

Western culture IS filthy. Im glad you recognise, yet you prepared to "defend" this as their way of life. And then your saying we should change oursselves so we can change them.

So how should we go about telling the west the issues i have said is wrong( i.e adultery/alcohol)? Since your suggesting "we dont say anything", since that would increase their hatred towards us. What/How should we do it?

Finally you speak about not insulting etc etc, but you were more than happy to insult one of our sisters on this very forum with the kind of brainless comments we expect from the non-muslims. Am i seeing double standards?

Regarding terrorism, i suggest you watch this very powerful lecture by Dr Zakir Naik in full....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utHBJmQIz7g

FiAmaaniAllah

**Muezzin** · 09-26-2009

I agree that answering hateful generalisations with hateful generalisations doesn't get anyone anywhere.

There's a difference between that and looking at a given culture or religion on balance and essentially saying, 'well, weighing up the pros and cons, something's wrong here, something's not adding up'. That leads to discussion, clarification and improvement.

Saying 'X religion/Y culture is full of EEVIIL' is not exactly conducive to the search for truth, justice and the Islamic way, to say the least.

**ieshia** · 09-26-2009

Originally Posted by Omar_21:30

Chocci, please point out where I defended the Taliban. I was simply referring to your statement "Only Allah has the right to take lives, not us" and pointing out to you how, in fact, Allah swt has given Muslims the right to fight, but purely in self-defence. This obviously excludes acts of terrorism, which I think this thread was originally about...

Again, ieshia, please read my post. Where am I defending terrorists?

Please read before posting. As for the rest of your post, I don't even know where to start!

My thoughts exactly.

Well i'm sorry but you should pick your words better before replying. You came in the middle of a conversation and made a comment, and any sane person will know that you're talking about the discussion that was going on, unless you specifically say what your comment is referring to. The OP wasn't talking about the right to self defense in anyway, he was talking about terrorists(who have no right to self defense) but you came in and pointed out something completely irrelevant to his post with a completely absurd topic in hope to prove his point wrong.

**ieshia** · 09-26-2009

Originally Posted by amani

yeh but it seems what i heard and you heard is different.

and as for your last comment. in what context? is there such a thing as jihad to you?

where besides from propaganda have you heard they denied women education? they had to build a destroyed country from scratch with not that much money! maybe the west should have also reported how they built women only hospitals..but oh no that might make them sound good

wow, so besides being presented with evidence you just want to believe that nothing wrong was done there, with no proof. Really because you just don't want to believe it. Now i will advice you to find a person who escaped from Afghanistan to get a real life proof, and please don't argue with someone who has done this. Also do you know what was happening in Pakistan only a few months ago. Those same terrible people tried spreading terror in Pakistan, by beating women out on the street and they had no right to touch that woman. The stopped women from getting education in that area, they tried to say that getting women ID is haram and shouldn't be allowed. They killed many Pakistani cops for no reason at all.

and yes i am well aware of the hadith that states education is a must for both men and women [/QUOTE]
It's not only a hadith but also in the Quran. I just wanted to point it out.

Originally Posted by amani

and killing a person who stands up against shariah and tries to disrupt people who want shariah- well that would be treason against country and war against Allah. so killing such a person? being bad?

No one is trying to fight Shariah. Besides shariah is made up name by people of today's world and those terrible people you're trying to defend added their own crappy rules and laws to it that have nothing to do with islam. No one was trying to fight them for having that law, they were out killing people for no reason. People of Afghanistan and Sawat begged for freedom.[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by amani

human rights also considers the punishment for zina ordered in the Quran to be a violation. would you like to comment on that?

I have no clue what you are referring to.

**ieshia** · 09-26-2009

Originally Posted by Najm

AsSalamOAlaikum WaRehmatuAllah WaBarkatuhu

Western culture IS filthy. Im glad you recognise, yet you prepared to "defend" this as their way of life. And then your saying we should change oursselves so we can change them.

So how should we go about telling the west the issues i have said is wrong( i.e adultery/alcohol)? Since your suggesting "we dont say anything", since that would increase their hatred towards us. What/How should we do it?

Finally you speak about not insulting etc etc, but you were more than happy to insult one of our sisters on this very forum with the kind of brainless comments we expect from the non-muslims. Am i seeing double standards?

Regarding terrorism, i suggest you watch this very powerful lecture by Dr Zakir Naik in full....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utHBJmQIz7g

FiAmaaniAllah

there are many things wrong with what you just said but i don't have the time for a good reply. The only thing i will like to point out to you quick is, the OP and what Islam tells us to do many times is tolerance. He is saying that we need to be patient and have tolerance of what others do.

**Najm** · 09-26-2009

Originally Posted by ieshia

there are many things wrong with what you just said but i don't have the time for a good reply. The only thing i will like to point out to you quick is, the OP and what Islam tells us to do many times is tolerance. He is saying that we need to be patient and have tolerance of what others do.

AsSalamOAlaikum WaRehmatuAllah WaBarkatuhu

Having read my post again, the only thing i probably said "wrong" is.... western culture is filthy. I was generalizing and using the term to describe the examples in the thread.

And in bold, the OP doesnt say that, or i should say i didnt understand like that, not even now. He is saying to change "ourselves" for their sake.

And i do agree with what is written in Bold.

Please do correct me.

FiAmaaniAllah

**S_87** · 09-26-2009

wow, so besides being presented with evidence you just want to believe that nothing wrong was done there, with no proof. Really because you just don't want to believe it. Now i will advice you to find a person who escaped from Afghanistan to get a real life proof, and please don't argue with someone who has done this. Also do you know what was happening in Pakistan only a few months ago. Those same terrible people tried spreading terror in Pakistan, by beating women out on the street and they had no right to touch that woman. The stopped women from getting education in that area, they tried to say that getting women ID is haram and shouldn't be allowed. They killed many Pakistani cops for no reason at all.

i have no proof as to what wrong was done there or not-true. BUT what 'proof' i have of the wrong done there are from people who are there killing the people on their own soil. so excuse me for not wanting to take was propaganda and believe it.
and as for asking a person who escaped afghanistan, i would prefer to ask a person who lives in afghanistan and woke up in the morning to see air bombs had destroyed their whole village and killed much of their family.

It's not only a hadith but also in the Quran. I just wanted to point it out

.
which ayah in particular are u referring to

No one is trying to fight Shariah. Besides shariah is made up name by people of today's world and those terrible people you're trying to defend added their own crappy rules and laws to it that have nothing to do with islam. No one was trying to fight them for having that law, they were out killing people for no reason. People of Afghanistan and Sawat begged for freedom

they started building the country till amreeka started blitzing it in search of obl.(and before u ask my opinion of him- i dont know who he is/if hes done whats been put to his and whether hes even alive or not so no opinion) yes they were fighting against the warlords and poppy seed trade as well as the northern alliance shias who didnt like their rule.

I have no clue what you are referring to.

you were speaking of human rights violations

**ieshia** · 09-26-2009

Originally Posted by amani

i have no proof as to what wrong was done there or not-true. BUT what 'proof' i have of the wrong done there are from people who are there killing the people on their own soil. so excuse me for not wanting to take was propaganda and believe it.
and as for asking a person who escaped afghanistan, i would prefer to ask a person who lives in afghanistan and woke up in the morning to see air bombs had destroyed their whole village and killed much of their family.

Dude the people of United States were killed brutally as well by people living in Afghanistan. Now war in Iraq is not fair and that is completely wrong but in Afghanistan is justified and better for the world's sake. The person from
Afghanistan is the person who had relatives die but was more upset by the way the talibans had treated them(a husband and wife couple). You haven't spoken to anyone there or from there okay! Most of the civilians there hate Taliban and don't have such hate for the U.S army. Why would Pakistan have a propaganda about this... what do they have to gain? Pakistanis were simply killed by and discriminated against by your beloved Talibans. There is clear proof to that, with videos, people, evidence of their weapons and rules. You just rather look pass that and believe what ever you want to believe. You refuse to believe anything the taliban did wrong and will even believe a simple rumor that goes against the U.S troops to be the truth.

.

Originally Posted by amani

which ayah in particular are u referring to

I will search for it later because my other computer with the quran's translation is turned off at the moment but did do a quick search and found this, sort of similar thing. It was mentioned several times in the quran but i will post it all later..

"This is why the people who truly reverence GOD are those who are knowledgeable. GOD is Almighty, Forgiving." Quran 35:28

Meaning: the people who truly have respect and fear of god are those who are educated/knowledgeable.

Originally Posted by amani

they started building the country till amreeka started blitzing it in search of obl.(and before u ask my opinion of him- i dont know who he is/if hes done whats been put to his and whether hes even alive or not so no opinion) yes they were fighting against the warlords and poppy seed trade as well as the northern alliance shias who didnt like their rule.

Who are you speaking off? Do you think we went to Afghanistan without any reason?

**Thinker** · 09-26-2009

Originally Posted by amani

whatd the taliban do except defend their country? and who are you to say their acts is a sin?

Defending their country – see below - all the dead and injured were Pakistanis?

And the guy that drove the car believes that he will be given the rewards prescribed for martyrs!!

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...wVTmAD9AV38900

PESHAWAR, Pakistan — Two suicide attacks killed 16 people and wounded more than 150 in northwest Pakistan on Saturday, showing Taliban militants are still able to strike despite heightened military operations and the slaying of their leader last month.
A Taliban spokesman called The Associated Press after the first bombing outside a police station to claim responsibility and warn of more blasts. He claimed the militants had been holding back on attacks but that any such "pause" was now over.