I have formed the view that Islam is frightened of scrutiny and worried that Muslims will waiver if exposed to anyone or anything that causes them to question.
I joined this site some time back to learn about Islam and to try and understand Muslims. I started knowing nothing and with no preconceptions. I have read and researched the subject extensively. No I haven’t read everything; yes, I am reading translated text; all that and context and interpretation but at the end of the day the volume of material leads me to some undeniable conclusions.
I stopped posting here sometime back because the constant bullying was draining. The bullying takes the form of deleted posts and unfair infractions designed (I believe) to drive away or suppress anyone who questions the doctrine. In many ways this forum is a reflection of the fear built into Islam. . . . . . Do not associate with the kufar, don’t live amongst them, don’t be friends with them, don’t even look like them. You are taught that this is because if you get near them you will become bad like them. I believe the reason is because Muhammed and your Imams fear the possibility of you being exposed to question. Proof of that is the suppression of people like me who would pose those questions – those questions are deleted for fear they may cause you to question.
It seems to me that there are two types of Muslim in the west. Those who have studied Islam and those who have not;
Those who have studied are in a quandary, they know that, by sheer weight, the volume of text demands that they not live amongst the kufar and although they cling on to some skewed interpretation or other that it’s really OK, they know it is not OK and they try to make amends for that sin by over egging on other easier stuff like growing the beard and wearing the clothes and shouting loudly about how much they love Islam and the rightness of killing anyone who says anything nasty about Muhammad.
Those who have not studied live in a warm foggy reality accepting what they are told and comforted in the thought that they are the chosen ones and only they will go to heaven.
I can remember a time when we all feared communism and communists. Looking back it was clearly ridiculous as communism was clearly unsustainable in the long term. Will the same fate befall Islam. As more and more non Muslims ask questions will more and more Muslims ask questions. Does Islam know that the only answer is a total world caliphate that can suppress any form of question? Did communism understand that was their only salvation?
And one more quandary, delete the post and you prove my point.
We have had several non-muslims over the years making critical of Islam, yet constructive posts. I don't believe they would claim they've been bullied by moderators.
The problem Thinker has is his attitude and approach. He has been offensive and despite what he says, does carry preconcieved notions of Islam and muslims upon which he conducts his discussions and tends to read into muslim replies only what he seeks to find to justify his beliefs.
While mods are not perfect, on the whole, they do not delete or edit posts or punish members undeservedly. Some rule or the other must have been contravened.
There is no unfairness against non-muslims either, as sister Skye's post demonstrates.
I agree with that.. there is a difference between posing a questions as such.
1- Why is Islam misogynistic as opposed to is Islam misogynistic?.. I mean if you have already made up your mind then what is the point for discussion. You are only setting out to prove your own points through manipulation and intellectual dishonesty and then come cry about it later..
When I was really young in school, I always thought I knew everything. I'd argue with the teachers because I spent much of my time studying on the side.. then one day ms. Muhra asked me (this was in KSA) if I knew everything why did I needed to attend class? She was really a lovely teacher I loved her very much and I changed my attitude afterward to maybe every subject is familiar since the knowledge of the world is in us, but we need to refine it by seeking knowledge not assuming that we already have it.
I have had many admins write angry words to me and threaten bans, why did I not cry about it publicly? furthermore I'd no desire to share my infractions publicly but certainly no member is exempt and hence I shared it so pls. spare me the clangorous need for public humbug.. or perhaps this too should be classified under bullying?
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
We have had several non-muslims over the years making critical of Islam, yet constructive posts. I don't believe they would claim they've been bullied by moderators.
The problem Thinker has is his attitude and approach. He has been offensive and despite what he says, does carry preconcieved notions of Islam and muslims upon which he conducts his discussions and tends to read into muslim replies only what he seeks to find to justify his beliefs.
While mods are not perfect, on the whole, they do not delete or edit posts or punish members undeservedly. Some rule or the other must have been contravened.
There is no unfairness against non-muslims either, as sister Skye's post demonstrates.
^That basically somes up thinkers attitude
He'd come on here with all his preconceptions and all he wanted to do was enforce those on us.
His 'questions' would start with a paragraph of totally biased preconceptions then at the end he'd 'ask' us all if we agreed with his view, this wasn't just once or twice which is why it took the mick
He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light: and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers. [Quran {33:43}] www.QuranicAudio.com www.Quran.com
I have formed the view that Islam is frightened of scrutiny and worried that Muslims will waiver if exposed to anyone or anything that causes them to question.
I joined this site some time back to learn about Islam and to try and understand Muslims. I started knowing nothing and with no preconceptions. I have read and researched the subject extensively. No I haven’t read everything; yes, I am reading translated text; all that and context and interpretation but at the end of the day the volume of material leads me to some undeniable conclusions.
I stopped posting here sometime back because the constant bullying was draining. The bullying takes the form of deleted posts and unfair infractions designed (I believe) to drive away or suppress anyone who questions the doctrine. In many ways this forum is a reflection of the fear built into Islam. . . . . . Do not associate with the kufar, don’t live amongst them, don’t be friends with them, don’t even look like them. You are taught that this is because if you get near them you will become bad like them. I believe the reason is because Muhammed and your Imams fear the possibility of you being exposed to question. Proof of that is the suppression of people like me who would pose those questions – those questions are deleted for fear they may cause you to question.
It seems to me that there are two types of Muslim in the west. Those who have studied Islam and those who have not;
Those who have studied are in a quandary, they know that, by sheer weight, the volume of text demands that they not live amongst the kufar and although they cling on to some skewed interpretation or other that it’s really OK, they know it is not OK and they try to make amends for that sin by over egging on other easier stuff like growing the beard and wearing the clothes and shouting loudly about how much they love Islam and the rightness of killing anyone who says anything nasty about Muhammad.
Those who have not studied live in a warm foggy reality accepting what they are told and comforted in the thought that they are the chosen ones and only they will go to heaven.
I can remember a time when we all feared communism and communists. Looking back it was clearly ridiculous as communism was clearly unsustainable in the long term. Will the same fate befall Islam. As more and more non Muslims ask questions will more and more Muslims ask questions. Does Islam know that the only answer is a total world caliphate that can suppress any form of question? Did communism understand that was their only salvation?
And one more quandary, delete the post and you prove my point.
delete!!! im scared! hehe i like you
DONT LET THIS GUY LEAVE!
IF HE KEEPS QUESTIONING! HELL EVENTUALLY ACCEPT ISLAM!!! I BELIEVE IT TO BE TRUE!!
keep questioning islam my friend... eventually the love will pour into your heart and inshallah youll help propegate TRUE islam.
Not the ignorance and misconception.
i make dua for you and me inshallah.
GOD HAS ALREADY CHOSEN YOU! SO KEEP FIGHTING!
I agree with what Thinker has said here. Particularly regarding Muslims who know Islam living in the West to be living in a moral and intellectual quandary. Many of the Muslims I know find it hard to reconcile living between two realities, that of the decent people living around them to the way disbelievers are portrayed in the Qur'an as being evil and rebellious.
Yes, the Prophet did tell his followers to go to Abyssinia and to live peacefully among the Christians, but this was when Islam was an endangered religion. Once Islam became dominant in the Hijaz it was a different story.
Going back to the OP, Thinker is not saying Islam is afraid of him as a person, but rather those who question Islam. I have seen countless threads on this and other forums as well as talks and discussions where Muslims (let alone non-Muslims) have asked awkward questions, only to be silenced or patronised, where they are told to "do not speak without knowledge" or "it is better not to speak on matters we do not have knowledge on" or "such-and-such questions are from Shaytaan." When we attribute all doubt in a belief to Shaytaan then we make those who question and cause doubts in Muslims the proponents of Shaytaan and as a result we leave no room for real debate.
I have been "bullied" a zillion times on various message boards, but I simply don't care. I know who I am, I know my intentions and I trust Allah (SWT). Just recently, someone on a Turkish Islamic site told me that I can't be a Muslim, if I don't agree with his views on jihad. He basically argued that we (Muslims) must continuously wage war on non-Muslims regardless if they are hostile or not. I beg to differ and don't care what this person thinks. There are a lot of ignorant and hateful people in this world, regardless of race, ethnicity or religion. What others say can't upset me. Who are they??
Last edited by Argamemnon; 03-18-2010 at 10:50 PM.
or "it is better not to speak on matters we do not have knowledge on" or "such-and-such questions are from Shaytaan."
Theres nothing wrong with that, when it reaches the stage when we end up questioning Allahs will, then thats when we have to shut up, because we simply don't have the knowledge or reasoning behind those matters and knowledge of those matters would not affect us in anyway either otherwise it would have been given to us. Its basically questions like why did Allah create earth or humans etc, the answers to that would benefit us in no way.
He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light: and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers. [Quran {33:43}] www.QuranicAudio.com www.Quran.com
When we attribute all doubt in a belief to Shaytaan then we make those who question and cause doubts in Muslims the proponents of Shaytaan and as a result we leave no room for real debate.
Why would I "debate" with an Islam hater? To him his religion, to me mine. I have better things to do. I only debate if/when I want.
I have been "bullied" a zillion times on various message boards, but I simply don't care. I know who I am, I know my intentions and I trust Allah (SWT). Just recently, someone on a Turkish Islamic site told me that I can't be a Muslim, if I don't agree with his views on jihad. He basically argued that we (Muslims) must continuously wage war on non-Muslims regardless if they are hostile or not. I beg to differ and don't care what this person thinks. There are a lot of ignorant and hateful people in this world, regardless of race, ethnicity or religion. Why would you get so upset about what others say? Who are they?
I have been kicked out of an atheist forum in exactly three days.. and I wasn't using foul language as they do.. the F word is a special part of their meaningless existence and on one anti-Islamic forum I had to make an account 13 times in one day to reply to B.S allegations that they have concocted and wanted desperately to believe.. sob7an Allah.. also been made to feel so unwelcome in one Islamic forum (during the time of the schivo case) one sister there just hounded me, I had one post approved for every one of her 20 and at the end they weren't posting my comments at all.. it is as if she would read it, reply to the part she wanted without posting the whole thing in context.. I was so frustrated I left.
People who protest so much especially this Eliphaz is one of the most ignorant folks on this forum.. ignorant people I have found to always be so belligerent and loud because it is their only means for survival, agreeing with anyone so long as it is the voice of dissent... they have nothing of substance to impart so they ingratiate themselves to anyone who can put a coherent sentence together, pseudo-intellect by proxy..
I wouldn't even bother anymore really explaining.. this forum survived as long as it did with that many forumers because it is a very special place to be in..
I have made incredible friends here, lasting kinships and probably was a haven for me to take me through my most difficult times.. if people had half a brain to be objective they'd notice that everyone is treated with respect and equally so!
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
I have been kicked out of an atheist forum in exactly three days.:
I too was kicked out of an atheist forum, but in just one or two days!! They were so incredibly hostile, unbelievable. And I was basically told that they had the right to insult me, but that I could not respond in a similar way!! (I wasn't even insulting like them)
Last edited by Argamemnon; 03-18-2010 at 11:01 PM.
When we attribute all doubt in a belief to Shaytaan then we make those who question and cause doubts in Muslims the proponents of Shaytaan and as a result we leave no room for real debate.
Iman in islam means 'decisive confirmation'. Once a person has this confirmed belief in Allah and Muhammad Sallalahu Alaihe Wasalam having spoken the truth, then it is incumbent upon them to not go against the commandments. There has to be a point where there is submission.
Of course, by all means, there should be a sincere seeking of answers if there is a doubt in the existence of Allah and the Prophethood of Muhammad, peace be upon him, in the first place, but once those things are there, it is illogical and irrational to question or have doubt over things that have been declared out of bounds (like the issue of qadr, we have been told to not delve too deeply into it) - all these things do is open the door to shaytan (who a person with decisive confirmation in Islam ought to believe exists and ought to treat as an enemy).
Since we have been commanded also to think good of other muslims, we don't assume that they are having doubt over the existence of Allah and the Prophethood of Allah when they ask questions about things that are out of bounds, then the only logical and compassionate alternative is to caution them to the error of their ways.
It seems most of the points have already been mentioned by others. It's interesting to note that we did have a discussion about this issue with Thinker in the Heldesk, so why he decided to return back to square one and try and gain some public sympathy is unclear.
A clarification should be made regarding Thinker's statement, "I joined this site some time back to learn about Islam and to try and understand Muslims." What he really meant to say was, and quoting his own words from our previous discussion:
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
And, contrary to what you appear to believe, I believe that searching for an answer is not simply a matter of asking a question but also about questioning the answer and putting alternative answers forwards for evaluation and examination.
Thinker appears to believe he is in a position to put alternative answers forward for Muslims to follow. He further believes that if his posts on the matter - as authoritative as he believes they are - should happen to be deleted, then he is being "bullied"!
So we see that the matter has nothing to do with asking questions about Islam for the purpose of learning. There are sufficient threads across the forum to prove this. Rather a distinction needs to be made between different types of questions - there can be genuine people asking "difficult questions about Islam" and trolls wasting people's time. Not only this, but there are other types of questions that simply have no use to them whatsoever. And it is out of a respect for our religion and its teachings that we will not allow ignorant people to start spreading nonsense, nor will we lend ourselves to discussions that only serve to create doubt and confusion.
format_quote Originally Posted by Eliphaz
I agree with what Thinker has said here. Particularly regarding Muslims who know Islam living in the West to be living in a moral and intellectual quandary. Many of the Muslims I know find it hard to reconcile living between two realities, that of the decent people living around them to the way disbelievers are portrayed in the Qur'an as being evil and rebellious.
What I find very strange is non-Muslims delving into such issues as though they are Muslim scholars qualified to speak about them. One may have read a verse from the Qur'an (an english translation no doubt) and a hadeeth or two on the topic, but the science of deriving rulings in Islam is very detailed and extensive, and one only demonstrates a lack of intelligence by assuming they have grasped an issue from partial evidences and superficial understanding. Muslims already have plenty of scholars to consult - we do not need non-Muslims coming on the forum to re-interpret our religion for us, giving Islamic verdicts or advice, or as in the case above, "putting alternative answers forwards for evaluation and examination"!
Lastly, we do not allow such threads protesting actions of moderators in public. That is what the Helpdesk is for. I would therefore remind the OP to use it in future.
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