Debate on banning Niqaab/Burka in Britain

format_quote Originally Posted by squiggle

The same could be said for nuns. Why do they choose to wear that covering over their head and not display their ornaments? this is extreme is it not? Why do they dress this way? and why is the virgin marry all ways depicted with a covering over her head? surely they have gone to an extreme this should be banned also why would got like them to dress this way as nuns? weird

You may well be right but are you agreeing here that indeed in both cases we are dealing with extremes?

I explained to you why Muslim women wear it a few posts back, as an act of submission to God, just like Christian nuns wear a head covering as an act of submission to God. I wonder why you keep raising the same questions over and over do you enjoy going in circles?

I was responding to another post but are you claiming some kind of infallibility here that your explanation is final, absolute the end of the story and I or anyone must accept it as a kind of truth. I might just say I have explained it to you many times so why don't you accept my explanation, why do you go in circles. If we take your line then the thread ends before it begins.

I perfectly understand that there may be good and noble reasons for doing anything but in the case of nuns they don't as far as I know cover the face and again as far as I know they don't cover up so people cannot see their 'adornments' but its I think an act of separation from the world and a kind of total devotion to the work of God. But there is no pressure from society for all women to follow their example and nothing in scripture that commands it other than words that commend modesty for all.

What I asked earlier, rhetorically, how do the women who wear it actually feel about it and does it bring a feeling of humility and submission to God and love for the whole community at one end of the scale or a feeling of self-righteousness and arrogance at the other - only the wearers know and its between them and God.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo

Who can say for sure but the person involved. As an outsider I would say that the burka is an absurdity and why any one would choose to wear it is beyond my understanding and forcing anyone to wear it is oppression - you might think the opposite.

I'd say the same about many items of western clothing; miniskirts, low tops, skintight clothes, by wearing these items you're walking around nude in public but no seems to make an issue out of it

But I might say a Muslim cleric who declares the burka a good and right thing to wear is also nuts. Does it occur to you to ask why would the God who created the Universe want or see any pleasure in woman dressing in that fashion, surely you must be able to see it is extreme? Interestingly a recent BBC documentary was shown on prostitution in Iran - now I don't blame those women involved (estimated to be about 100,000) because they seem to be driven to it largely by poverty. But when they walk from client to client they wear the usual Islamic dress including the burka so wearing it may or may not signify much about the person.

Do you find that suprising in a country where prostitution is legalised and part of their religion? Yes people may have other intentions, its none of our business and who are we to judge?

Hugo, got a huge chip on the ol' shoulder eh?


i cant believe this thread is still actually opened.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo

You may well be right but are you agreeing here that indeed in both cases we are dealing with extremes?



I was responding to another post but are you claiming some kind of infallibility here that your explanation is final, absolute the end of the story and I or anyone must accept it as a kind of truth. I might just say I have explained it to you many times so why don't you accept my explanation, why do you go in circles. If we take your line then the thread ends before it begins.

No, I'm saying you criticize something as being extreme yet your own religion has the very same idea's. Why criticize something that's apart of your own religion and in your bible. Are you really a Christian? Do you think the virgin Mary was extreme for all ways walking around with a head covering? Why is it extreme to you when God mentions it in the bible? it wasn't extreme in past societies and times.

I am not claiming any kind of infallibility, you just ask the same questions over and over, so I give you the same explanation over and over. Hence we go around in circles because you're asking questions you've all ready been given the answer to. If you don't like the answer then tough deal with it. I mean what are you trying to achieve?

This is a simpler version of a convo with Hugo

Hugo "what color is the sky?"


Other person "blue"


A few posts later


Hugo "what colour is the sky?"


other person "blue"


a few posts later


Hugo "what colour is the sky?"


other person answers "I gave you the answer so many times all ready why do you keep asking what is your motive/goal?"


Hugo: Are you claiming some kind of infallibility here that your answer is final? there are many ways to look at it, the sky can be grey also or white depending upon your perception or grey and white it could also be red to a colour blind person. The sky could also be black if you're wearing sun glasses. So you see the issue is not as simple as you make out, the topic requires a thorough analysis.


Other person: Well dude I mean that's MY answer the sky is blue at the moment. SO what else do you want to talk about.


Hugo: Well I don't accept the answer, you see the sky might be blue for you, but for me it's grey so how do we reconcile these two views? what is truly the colour of the sky? after all for a person living in a different country the sky might all ways be blue and for a person living in England the sky might be grey the majority of the time so the question is which is correct? how do we determine which is correct?


Other person Hmm ok, right ..... but that doesn't change the fact you've been given the answer so you don't need to ask again.


Hugo: are you claiming some kind of infallibility here that your answer is final?


Other person: No dude I just gave you the answer on what colour the sky is, I mean what more do you want from me.


Hugo I want the ANSWER!!!! are you claiming some kind of infallibility here that your answer is final?????


Other person SERIOUSLY WHAT IS UR PROBLEM I TOLD YOU THE ANSWER???? WHAT DO U WANT????


Hugo: I WANT YOU TO AGREE THAT THE SKY IS RED


Other person: But it's BLUE!!


Hugo are you claiming some kind of infallibility here that your answer is final?


Other person: ooooooooooook right, eerm I so get where you're coming from. *RUNS OFF*


such a trickery with words otherwise known as chatting crap.

^you like talking crap don't you. you're quite good at it too. ever considered taking it up as a profession? im sure you'd get hired in no time.

I doubt it as I work with Muslim students all the time here and in the Middle East including those who cover up so as usual you cannot accept a point of view for what it is, for you there is always something 'wrong' with those who disagree with you..

couldn't have put it better myself. im glad it came from you.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo

Whether something is extreme or nor perhaps is a to do with ones view point. The Bible says very little about Mary and there is no description of her and what you must be referring to is paintings where invention is involved not fact - so where does God mention something?


I asked the questions once and responded to those who commented just as I am doing now. The point at issues perhaps is you assume you are right, hence your answer and when another factor intrudes as they always will I would say the proper thing is to re-think it - but I guess you can't accept that idea.

Interesting analogy and its a pity that you did not speak of black and white the way you view the world. In University many years ago one professor was demonstrating the principles of light and I like every one else in the lecture was absolutely convinced that he was wearing white gloves but when the lights in the lecture theatre came fully on at the end we were all astounded to see the gloves were in fact black - or were they?

So this is not about a chip on my shoulder its about everyone being able to see that others can and do hold perfectly logical and legitimate points of view and they don't have to be silly or ignorant or hateful to0 do it. The fact that they may be opposites is just a simple fact of the world we live in and no different really than someone liking coffee ice cream and then next person hating it.

Hmm so the people who make paintings of Mary all ways draw a head cover on her this is weird and extreme, why do they do this for? it gives girls the wrong idea that covering your head is a good thing to do like the virgin mary. If invention is involved why do they choose to depict her this way? is it because modesty is better? or maybe they're inspired by the following verses where it's clearly commanded in the bible. Confusing indeed.

format_quote Originally Posted by Insane Insaan

Not sure why it's such a strange issue?

To add to Br squiggle's post:

"But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved.

If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.

For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man."

1 Corinthians 11:5-7

Thankfully the Qur'an doesn't suggest that women should shave their hair off, nor that woman is the glory of man.

Peace.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo

I doubt it as I work with Muslim students all the time here and in the Middle East including those who cover up so as usual you cannot accept a point of view for what it is, for you there is always something 'wrong' with those who disagree with you..

have you tried speaking to them about what they think?

Wow what a discussion
SubhaanAllaah

Anyways i like the Burka and Niqaab, its seen as extreme today but not back then. A load of extremist today who like to think what they say is correct and force it upon others huh and they call it DEMOCRACY

Ps. to those who have no idea who im on bout, am on about the people who wanna bann niqab or burka.

So yeah

format_quote Originally Posted by squiggle

No, I'm saying you criticize something as being extreme yet your own religion has the very same idea's. Why criticize something that's apart of your own religion and in your bible. Are you really a Christian? Do you think the virgin Mary was extreme for all ways walking around with a head covering? Why is it extreme to you when God mentions it in the bible? it wasn't extreme in past societies and times.

I am not claiming any kind of infallibility, you just ask the same questions over and over, so I give you the same explanation over and over. Hence we go around in circles because you're asking questions you've all ready been given the answer to. If you don't like the answer then tough deal with it. I mean what are you trying to achieve?

This is a simpler version of a convo with Hugo

Hugo "what color is the sky?"


Other person "blue"


A few posts later


Hugo "what colour is the sky?"


other person "blue"


a few posts later


Hugo "what colour is the sky?"


other person answers "I gave you the answer so many times all ready why do you keep asking what is your motive/goal?"


Hugo: Are you claiming some kind of infallibility here that your answer is final? there are many ways to look at it, the sky can be grey also or white depending upon your perception or grey and white it could also be red to a colour blind person. The sky could also be black if you're wearing sun glasses. So you see the issue is not as simple as you make out, the topic requires a thorough analysis.


Other person: Well dude I mean that's MY answer the sky is blue at the moment. SO what else do you want to talk about.


Hugo: Well I don't accept the answer, you see the sky might be blue for you, but for me it's grey so how do we reconcile these two views? what is truly the colour of the sky? after all for a person living in a different country the sky might all ways be blue and for a person living in England the sky might be grey the majority of the time so the question is which is correct? how do we determine which is correct?


Other person Hmm ok, right ..... but that doesn't change the fact you've been given the answer so you don't need to ask again.


Hugo: are you claiming some kind of infallibility here that your answer is final?


Other person: No dude I just gave you the answer on what colour the sky is, I mean what more do you want from me.


Hugo I want the ANSWER!!!! are you claiming some kind of infallibility here that your answer is final?????


Other person SERIOUSLY WHAT IS UR PROBLEM I TOLD YOU THE ANSWER???? WHAT DO U WANT????


Hugo: I WANT YOU TO AGREE THAT THE SKY IS RED


Other person: But it's BLUE!!


Hugo are you claiming some kind of infallibility here that your answer is final?


Other person: ooooooooooook right, eerm I so get where you're coming from. *RUNS OFF*


such a trickery with words otherwise known as chatting crap.

I'd need to add to that (if I had the time) but how true..
you forgot to include the laundry list of dead philosophers and ISBN numbers to books he hasn't read by authors who in all likelihood negate any form of concordance he may feel he shares of their opinions ..

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo

I doubt it as I work with Muslim students all the time here and in the Middle East including those who cover up so as usual you cannot accept a point of view for what it is, for you there is always something 'wrong' with those who disagree with you..

Does your work with Muslims preclude you from pursuing your true calling? I imagine it pays better to live off Muslim money, but seeing at how apt you are at dispensing with bull and knowing the full market there is for it, you could make a fortune while being true to yourself at the same time..
Further opinions are like a holes, everyone has one, there is no reason to actually be one. I hope you can distinguish the difference for your sake, for it doesn't seem that only Muslims have problems with what you write, and if more people are coming up with the same conclusion I'd reassess your opinion of yourself rather than what you think ails others..

all the best

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo

Interesting you should ask and perhaps a little story will help. In Saudi Arabia after being taken to a class of Woman students who were all fully veiled and the Head of Department left (a man) every single one of those students immediately removed the veil much I must say to my surprise - we then went on with the lecture. As to discussion, yes occasionally they take place but when one works and talks with people face to face the dynamic is different and it is easier to exchange views without rancour. My own experience in the Middle East is that views differ enormously even within the Muslim community and the take a much more open view that one finds here.

There you go, there are some who take the veil seriously and use it for religious reasons and there are others who do not,


What I originally meant was; have you asked them what they think about the burka being banned, the ones who wear veils?

Ramadan is just a few days away and I will not be making further posts after this one until after September the 9th though for those of you who use the education threads I will continue to post there and answer any question on research I get.

Reading through the thread we have seen that wearing the Burka is a sign of submission and devotion to God and also there is merit attached to it. Certainly the idea of submission and devotion is something that Christianity would enjoin but the idea of gaining merit is alien and Christians would typically say when we have done all we can we are still no more than unworthy servants. The Christian view is perhaps best expressed as follows; which applies equally to men and women for unless this kind of 'clothing' is present the burka or nuns habit or any other dress is worthless.

Colossians 3:12-14 (The Message). So, chosen by God for this new life of love, dress in the wardrobe God picked out for you: compassion, kindness, humility, quiet strength, discipline. Be even-tempered, content with second place, quick to forgive an offense. Forgive as quickly and completely as the Master forgave you. And regardless of what else you put on, wear love. It's your basic, all-purpose garment. Never be without it.

format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77

what i originally meant was; have you asked them what they think about the burka being banned, the ones who wear veils?

exactly!. . .