Why are they so ignorant to this fact...

Asalaamu Alaikum(peace be with you)

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Well, one reason would be because he wasn't the first to denounce racism. Not saying that he didn't denounce racism at a time when it was still rampant. But he simply wasn't the first.

I disagree, I believe he was the first person to ban Racism. Maybe there's a misunderstanding here, sure I agree others before him may have denounced racism, but Muhammad(pbuh) actually made the change, made it a law that racism should not happen.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

For instance the following was written hundreds of years before Muhammad (pbuh) was even born:
"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." --the Apostle Paul in a letter to the church at Galatia (Galatians 3:28).

And before that we have these comments: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right." --the Apostle Peter reflecting on what he learned from a vision with respect to how to receive and make room for non-Jews in his life (Acts 10:34).

The problem with this is that Jesus(pbuh) only peached in a spiritual sense, he(pbuh) never implemented anything, when he was persecuted he had to stop his teachings, so his people never accepted him(pbuh) or his(pbuh) teachings. Jesus(pbuh) was sent to the Jews(children of Isreal), 300 years later, someone decided to make a religion in his(pbuh) name (feel free to correct me if I am wrong here).

This is the same as someone quoting someone from much before Jesus(pbuh) and making a religious teaching out of that person and say he was the first person to "say this and this", yet there's no evidence or proof or anything to show any of their teachings were in actual fact implemented or followed (not Racism atleast).

Now let's look at Muhammad(pbuh). He did the same thing as Jesus(pbuh), except when it came to the point where he was being persecuted, he(pbuh) didn't stop his preaching, it got to the point where God allowed Muhammad(pbuh) to fight back in order to protect his preachings(which btw, is what Jesus(pbuh) will also do, on his return according to your Bible). Thus when victory came to the Muslims, Muhammad(pbuh) set his teachings as the God given Law, 1400 years ago.

When he died, these laws remained in tact and people followed them as if they were the word of God. The Caliphates continue'd using these laws as Shariah and thus Racism was from Arabia starting to be demolished for good.

Forward to to America, Racism was still extremely bad in the recent century, not even the Government gave much support to remove it, I mean "black people had to go to the back of the bus". Furthermore, people like Malcolm X went into the false "Nation of Islam" which only taught them that blacks was superior to white's and that this is Islam's teachings. However, when Malcolm X went on a Hajj trip, this is the enlightenment he found of the true Islam, the Islam that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) brought to Mankind -

Never have I witnessed such sincere hospitality and overwhelming spirit of true brotherhood as is practiced by people of all colors and races here in this ancient Holy Land, the home of Abraham, Muhammad and all the other Prophets of the Holy Scriptures. For the past week, I have been utterly speechless and spellbound by the graciousness I see displayed all around me by people of all colors.
I have been blessed to visit the Holy City of Mecca, I have made my seven circuits around the Ka'ba, led by a young Mutawaf named Muhammad, I drank water from the well of the Zam Zam. I ran seven times back and forth between the hills of Mt. Al-Safa and Al Marwah. I have prayed in the ancient city of Mina, and I have prayed on Mt. Arafat.
There were tens of thousands of pilgrims, from all over the world. They were of all colors, from blue-eyed blondes to black-skinned Africans. But we were all participating in the same ritual, displaying a spirit of unity and brotherhood that my experiences in America had led me to believe never could exist between the white and non-white.
America needs to understand Islam, because this is the one religion that erases from its society the race problem. Throughout my travels in the Muslim world, I have met, talked to, and even eaten with people who in America would have been considered white - but the white attitude was removed from their minds by the religion of Islam. I have never before seen sincere and true brotherhood practiced by all colors together, irrespective of their color.
You may be shocked by these words coming from me. But on this pilgrimage, what I have seen, and experienced, has forced me to rearrange much of my thought-patterns previously held, and to toss aside some of my previous conclusions. This was not too difficult for me. Despite my firm convictions, I have always been a man who tries to face facts, and to accept the reality of life as new experience and new knowledge unfolds it. I have always kept an open mind, which is necessary to the flexibility that must go hand in hand with every form of intelligent search for truth.
During the past eleven days here in the Muslim world, I have eaten from the same plate, drunk from the same glass, and slept on the same rug - while praying to the same God - with fellow Muslims, whose eyes were the bluest of blue, whose hair was the blondest of blond, and whose skin was the whitest of white. And in the words and in the deeds of the white Muslims, I felt the same sincerity that I felt among the black African Muslims of Nigeria, Sudan and Ghana.
We were truly all the same (brothers) - because their belief in one God had removed the white from their minds, the white from their behavior, and the white from their attitude.
I could see from this, that perhaps if white Americans could accept the Oneness of God, then perhaps, too, they could accept in reality the Oneness of Man - and cease to measure, and hinder, and harm others in terms of their 'differences' in color.
With racism plaguing America like an incurable cancer, the so-called 'Christian' white American heart should be more receptive to a proven solution to such a destructive problem. Perhaps it could be in time to save America from imminent disaster - the same destruction brought upon Germany by racism that eventually destroyed the Germans themselves.
Each hour here in the Holy Land enables me to have greater spiritual insights into what is happening in America between black and white. The American Negro never can be blamed for his racial animosities - he is only reacting to four hundred years of the conscious racism of the American whites. But as racism leads America up the suicide path, I do believe, from the experiences that I have had with them, that the whites of the younger generation, in the colleges and universities, will see the handwriting on the walls and many of them will turn to the spiritual path of truth - the only way left to America to ward off the disaster that racism inevitably must lead to.
Never have I been so highly honored. Never have I been made to feel more humble and unworthy. Who would believe the blessings that have been heaped upon an American Negro? A few nights ago, a man who would be called in America a white man, a United Nations diplomat, an ambassador, a companion of kings, gave me his hotel suite, his bed. Never would I have even thought of dreaming that I would ever be a recipient of such honors - honors that in America would be bestowed upon a King - not a Negro.
All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of all the Worlds.
Sincerely,
Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz

^This is how Arabian lands and everywhere Islam was dominant has been for nearly 1400 years, the cause of this? Muhammad(pbuh). This is accepted by western intellects today, so I don't really understand why you won't accept it, just like the rest of the west (or should I say notified of this fact).

I can use the same example for religious tolerance -

Muhammad adhered meticulously to the charter he forged for Medina, which - grounded as it was in the Qur’anic injunction, “Let there be no compulsion in religion” (2:256) - is arguably the first mandate for religious tolerance in human history. [Huston Smith]

The proof for this is the 15million or more Christians living peacefully in Muslim lands today, some who's ancestors date right back to the time of the Prophet(pbuh). Muslims on the other hand only recently came to the west and then since 9/11 absolutly multiplied by the numbers through vast conversions.

The number of verses in Qur’an inviting close observation of nature are several times more than those that relate to prayer, fasting, pilgrimage etc. all put together. The Muslim under its influence began to observe nature closely and this gives birth to the scientific spirit of the observation and experiment which was unknown to the Greeks. [Prof. K. S. Ramakrishna Rao]

The Christian World came to wage crusades against Muslims but eventually knelt before them to gain knowledge. They were spellbound to see that Muslims were owners of a culture that was far superior to their own. The Dark Ages of Europe were illuminated by nothing but the beacon of Muslim civilization. [F.J.C. Hearushaw]

Because of Muhammad(pbuh) being the first to engage religious tolerance were the west accepted to gain and share knowledge with the Muslim civilization, through them did the west prosper enormously and come out of the "dark ages".

The teachings of Islam can fail under no circumstances. With all our systems of culture and civilization, we can not go beyond Islam and, as a matter of fact, no human mind can go beyond the Qur’an. [Johann Goethe]

^Only until they acknowledged the Muslims were they able to take vast knowledge from them for their own benefits. Before this they were killing people for suggesting the "Earth was round".

And I can go on and on and on. Give me one Civilization before the time of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) that was revolutionized in such a way, that not only was racism eradicated, but women were given rights, animals had rights - a revolution that not only changed nation's way of governing, but changed the way it's people acted all the way to how it's people "think"; this positive change which even the west benefited from, all happened within a span of 23 years, because of Muhammad(pbuh) through the inspiration of God. It is undisputed that this is the biggest revolution in the whole of history.

Why doesn't the West globally acknowledge or is taught this? I requote -

The lies that we (Christians) have heaped round this man (Muhammad) are disgraceful to ourselves only. [Thomas Carlyle]

Of all the world's greatest men none has been so much maligned as Muhammad. It is easy to see how this has come about. For centuries Islam was the great enemy of Christendom, for Christendom was in direct contact with no other organized states comparable in power to the Muslims. [Montgomery Watt]

If you still after all this for some reason don't agree, then I don't really know what more to say, what more even Non-Muslims can say who attest to all this.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Now it may be that those who followed them in the practice of Christian teachings didn't adopt the same views which these folks had with regard to not looking at a person's race, but these views were expressed and taught long before Muhammad (pbuh). Further, those folks like Martin Luther King who were able to effect a real change with regard to the treatment of people of minority races by the majority referred back to these (and other) Christian teachings and not the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh) when they presented their message.

Your clearly very misinformed if you believe the teachings of Muhammad(pbuh), the very fundemantal of his teachings were ignored the moment he died in the same way Jesus(pbuh) or anyone before him's were.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

As a result Muhammad's (pbuh) contributions will be discounted while those others who have provided greater influence to their own life will have their stature enhanced.

Because of early Christian influence, do you not agree? Medevil Christianity if you research it, you'll see what their version of Muhammad(pbuh) was.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Muhammad (pbuh) is a great influence in your life. And that of course enhances your view of him.

Despite this not being the point, I'm pretty sure it's not just the 1.7 billion Muslims that see him as this, there are still many Non-Muslims who aren't particulary Christians that see him the same way.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

But when you report that you've only known three Christians to ever have something good to say about Muhammad (pbuh), it seems to me that your sampling pool must be incredibly small.

Not really, because even (most) of the websites I go to (Christian one's) there's also always something on Islam and Muhammad(pbuh) that's untrue, plenty of adverts of their hero "Robert Spencer" lol.

I think your in a bit of denial if you think Christians as a whole look at him in a positive light, you may be the minority then.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

I'll bet up until 10-20 years ago, 80% of Christians in the west didn't even bother to think about Islam one way or another.

Further attest to the tolerance mentioned above. Or did someone else "say this before Muhammad(pbuh) but never implemented it either"?

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Now, with regard to some of the characterizations of Muhammad (pbuh) that you don't appreciate. I don't think they will ever go away. He did things, things that will be judged and evaluated by people both who have adopted the same faith as he and those who will forever remain outside of it. Those different points of view will quite naturally have an impact on what they see. And some will see that Muhammad (pbuh) took a child as his wife and regardless of the culture of his day, he will be judged by the culture of the reviewer and be dubbed (at least by some) a pedophile. You may call that ignorance. If so, it isn't ignorance of events, but a decision to ignore the role of Muhammad's (pbuh) culture and to judge him by the reviewer's culture instead.

This is ignorance though. You say "child" but we Muslims and other experts in this historical field do not see it as a Child. The ignorance part comes when the following is ignored;

- The Quran explicitly condemns the marraige of a child. Young girls is allowed, but a child is not.
- How does a child consent of a marraige (which is a mandate before any girl being married).
- How does a child "teach nations"? Plenty of Hadiths prove that Aisha(pbuh) not long after her marraige was teaching people of all ages about Islam.
- How does a child go into a battlefield (battle of budr, 1 year after her marraige) and address the injured and hurt? One of the reasons why some people doubt Aisha(pbuh) was even 9 years old, because only 15+ were allowed in the battlefield (Link)
- How does a child get jelous of her husband.
- How does a child fall "in love" with her husband
- Why didn't the enemies of Islam see the Quran recitations about banning the marraige of Children, yet not accuse the Prophet(pbuh) for going against the Quran?
- Aisha(pbuh)'s father asked the Prophet(pbuh) for marraige, it would've been offensive/rejection if the Prophet(pbuh) said no, as at the time he literally had no reason to say no.
- If he was a pedophile, then what about his marraige to the 40 year old Khadija, which was a 1 partner marraige? What about his marraige to the other women who were again, some in their 40's and 50's? Should we just ignore the political influences of these marraiges aswell?
- This list goes on..

Ignoring these is, imo ignorance. There is ofcourse the "ignorance trend", I mean I'm sure you have some sort of gist as to what the early Christians interpretation of Muhammad(pbuh) was? Feel free to go look it up on Wiki if you like, not a single accusation of pedophilia. That, for those that think, tells you something.

Aisha(pbuh) may well have been 9 years old, but she most certainly wasn't a child, she was able to do alot more in her time with the Prophet(pbuh), than what women of today are able to do their whole lives.

Atleast if someone said "the Prophet had 11 wives, I don't like this", sure Muslims would give a valid explanation which people can accept or reject, but this sort of accusation is atleast not based on falsehood.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

The Pope is NOT the 1 leader for all Christians like you report here. He is the leader for the largest group of Christians, but there are many, many more for whom he is no more than a person of interest, and not a leader at all. Indeed, as a pastor I have a bishop who is over me, but it is not the Pope nor any Catholic bishop. I am not Catholic, I am United Methodist. Yes, his words have influence, but they don't carry authority outside of the Catholic Church. And some Imam's do indeed do the same -- that is they don't have authority, but they do have influence -- and not just within their own masjid, but beyond through the media of our day able to influence people all around he world.

Now a quick search will lead me to all sorts of interesting statements that I am told are "supposed" to represent Islam. Here is just one sample:

Your comparing the Pope, who millions of people follow, who's comment's caused a national outrage not by Muslim countries but also by Non-Muslim countries aswell; your comparing that to an Imam who maybe a few hundred people listen to, who out of those few hundred only a small number take heed too; seeing as these people aren't born yesterday and do have some idea of what their own religion is really about and what it teaches.

An Imam by my book is only equivilent to a Priest. At this moment, as far as religious figures go, nothing tops the Pope, who by all means have alot of influence over their followers.

.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Should I accept this view as being representative of Islam? Most Muslims I know would refute these points as not being central to Islam. And yet it is out there. On what shall I garner my view of what is and isn't true Islam?

It is the same for Christianity; Look at the Pastor who wanted to burn the Quran, his wasn't exactly a "website call" it was in the media, again of all countries. Can you imagine if a Muslim did that (against the Bible) in a Muslim country? He would probalby get the death sentence or go straight in jail for breaking the religious tolerance law, this Pastor on the other hand is being allowed to continue his preaching and is being invited into other countries aswell.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

The internet provides us access to what we seek. On it I can seek for all in Islam that I might find violating my conscience and what I believe. I can seek for those biases that I have against Islam or Muhammad (pbuh) and have them confirmed. And, of course, you can do the same with regard to Christianity.

Everyone has a mind to think. Remember when I said in a previous thread about how some Christian in a video talked about believing Mary(pbuh) was apart of the trinity? I was confused but I never exactly believed that, because that would make it incestreous and I'm sure that's not what Christians would believe in. It's the same for the Prophet(pbuh), do you really think 1.7 billion people would believe that he was a mass murderer, a pedophile or w/e other false allegations that are thrown at him? People should think a bit, rather then accept it as truth.

Robert Spencer is the worst example of this; Christians (not all) almost worship him, because they think he's showing the world what the "true Muhammad(pbuh) is" or the "true Islam". Looking at the Amazon comments, thank God I saw 1 or 2 (seemingly Christian people) say that to them "it did seem like he was twisting some verses in the Quran"(they did get scrutinated by fellow members in reply comments); otherwise I only saw comments like "THANK YOU SPENCER, I was in a dillema whether to convert to Islam or stay with Christianity, and YOUR TRUTHFUL BOOK saved me, your my hero". - Uh, why don't you double check the claims with other sources please?

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

If you continue to do the looking you have begun here, I am sure that you will find many more Christians that view Muhammad (despite the imperfections we would ascribe to him sharing in common with the rest of humanity) as a good, influential, perhaps even a great man.

Well the struggle will always be there, for the Muslims and some considerate Non-Muslims to try and remove the misconceptions. Feel free to hate, but atleast don't hate on falsehood; which is the misconception the Ummah is challenged today to change.

Anyways, the point of this reply was to try and prove that Muhammad(pbuh) was the first person recorded in history to ban racism, not just "speak out against it" but to actually ban it. Whether you accept this or not, that's your choice; and if you opinion is the same; then this conversation is best kept to stop here otherwise it literally will just be a "cycle" of long and pointless replies that none of the other recipients are willing to take into heed. Oh and I hope I have offended you in anything that I've said, if I have then I apologise before hand.