How do you know that Islam is the truth?

format_quote Originally Posted by Impey

Interesting. The first hadith seem to allow oppression with the words "avoid taking the best.." as if taking what is not the best is ok? Whilst the second is a much more positive way of dealing with oppression. Anyway, I saw this on CNN so perhaps you would comment on who is being oppressed h t t p : / / edition. cnn. com / 2011 / WORLD /meast/ 05 /31/ iran. bahai/ index. html I just give a summary here: The Baha'i faith, founded in Iran, is considered blasphemous, Now, 16 Baha'i professors have been arrested for helping followers get advanced degrees, A government newspaper calls it "a cover for the propagation of the Baha'i faith". Now it seem clear to me the Baha'i faith is being oppressed - what do you think?

I am refraining to comment on the story as I don't have full facts.

But one thing is for sure: propagation of other faith in an Islamic state is not allowed. You may see it as an oppression, but the rule is clear on this, even though many non-muslims citizens will always try to break this rule. Example: in Indonesia, the largest muslim country, christian missionaries keep breaking the rules using all kinds of methods to propagate their belief. The government unfortunately is not being strict on this clear cut violation of law.

format_quote Originally Posted by Impey

Interesting. The first hadith seem to allow oppression with the words "avoid taking the best.." as if taking what is not the best is ok? Whilst the second is a much more positive way of dealing with oppression.

This directive is regarding zakat in general which is a charity tax due upon Muslims; whereas jisyah is due upon non-Muslims in an Islamic state. This does not refer to oppression or injustice, but provides guidelines to the Islamic state basically on tax collecting.

Anyway, I saw this on CNN so perhaps you would comment on who is being oppressed h t t p : / / edition. cnn. com / 2011 / WORLD /meast/ 05 /31/ iran. bahai/ index. html

I just give a summary here: The Baha'i faith, founded in Iran, is considered blasphemous, Now, 16 Baha'i professors have been arrested for helping followers get advanced degrees, A government newspaper calls it "a cover for the propagation of the Baha'i faith".

Now it seem clear to me the Baha'i faith is being oppressed - what do you think?

From Wikipedia:

Bahá'ís continue to be persecuted in Islamic countries, as Islamic leaders do not recognize the Bahá'í Faith as an independent religion, but rather as apostasy from Islam. The most severe persecutions have occurred in Iran, where over 200 Bahá'ís were executed between 1978 and 1998, and in Egypt.

My understanding is that a tolerance has been allowed in Islam such that the Christians and the Jews living within an Islamic state are free to practice their religion if they pay the jizyah tax and do not openly work to spread their religion. The same rights do not apply to idolators or apostates from Islam and deviant sects that include the Baha'i as well as Ahmadiyah. This is only my perspective and Allah (swt) knows best.

You may extend your concept of perceived oppression to alcohol consumption, homosexuality or sexual immorality. In Islam there is the concept of encouraging the good and forbidding the evil as opposed to the tolerance for immorality in the West.

Interesting turn here, because I talked about this very thing with the brother at the masjid yesterday, about Islamic sharia law and how it keeps order in society. For me as a Western non-Muslim (for now), Sharia is a scary word. I used to even tell people that the "one-world government" talked about in Revelations would be Islamic Sharia law. I was terrified of it.

Now I'm not so afraid of Sharia anymore. I think it's taken out of context when used by Western media, just like most things pertaining to Islam.

format_quote Originally Posted by Flame

There's something called repentance. All of us do wrong and oppress one another at some time or another. But if we repent, we have hope of receiving God's mercy. So the one who is an oppressor today might repent SINCERELY tomorrow and be of those who are forgiven, even if their oppression filled the entire earth.Those who fail to repent and continue with their oppression will be the losers.......... whether they are Muslims or not. All oppressors who do not repent will pay for their deeds.

This is an interesting response and of course I appreciate that repentance is necessary. Do you think that repentance always has to come before forgiveness - what I mean is God might take the initiative and seeks us out before we are even perhaps aware of it - I ma not entirely sure but that seems to be the Christian way, is it like that in Islam?

format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan

I am refraining to comment on the story as I don't have full facts. But one thing is for sure: propagation of other faith in an Islamic state is not allowed. You may see it as an oppression, but the rule is clear on this, even though many non-muslims citizens will always try to break this rule. Example: in Indonesia, the largest muslim country, christian missionaries keep breaking the rules using all kinds of methods to propagate their belief. The government unfortunately is not being strict on this clear cut violation of law.

Thanks for the clarity. Though I can see it from Islam's point of view it does seem to take away, well violate what I would call a natural freedom, that is the freedom to believe and the freedom to tell others about it (this could of course include things other than religion: evolution, communism, democracy etc . Two questions - How do you feel about this 'law', are you for it or against it and how would you feel if a Western nation had a similar law forbidding the propagation of Islam?

format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc

This directive is regarding zakat in general which is a charity tax due upon Muslims; whereas jisyah is due upon non-Muslims in an Islamic state. This does not refer to oppression or injustice, but provides guidelines to the Islamic state basically on tax collecting.From Wikipedia:

Bahá'ís continue to be persecuted in Islamic countries, as Islamic leaders do not recognize the Bahá'í Faith as an independent religion, but rather as apostasy from Islam. The most severe persecutions have occurred in Iran, where over 200 Bahá'ís were executed between 1978 and 1998, and in Egypt.

My understanding is that a tolerance has been allowed in Islam such that the Christians and the Jews living within an Islamic state are free to practice their religion if they pay the jizyah tax and do not openly work to spread their religion. The same rights do not apply to idolators or apostates from Islam and deviant sects that include the Baha'i as well as Ahmadiyah. This is only my perspective and Allah (swt) knows best. You may extend your concept of perceived oppression to alcohol consumption, homosexuality or sexual immorality. In Islam there is the concept of encouraging the good and forbidding the evil as opposed to the tolerance for immorality in the West.

Thank you for a very clear post. Of course we have to have laws so I am not suggesting that freedom be absolute. However, the problem for me comes when one part of society claims special authority and its an authority where some claim they are speaking for God. Here for example you speak of immorality in the West as if under Islamic rule it does not exist - for example, to me it is immoral to have more than one wife and I am told (can you confirm this?) a man is even allowed to have sex with ones slave girls? The other issue I would have here is that it is as if Islam is the only possible way to decide what is good - is this how you see it?

A man can never be stopped from thinking whatever he chooses so long as he conceals what he thinks. But this natural liberty of private thinking is of little value and even painful to the person himself, if he is not allowed to communicate his thoughts (which may be valuable) to others. I think it is extremely difficult to hide thoughts that have any power over the mind. If a man’s thinking means he questions ideas and customs which regulate the behaviour of those about him, to reject beliefs which they hold, to see better ways of life than those they follow, it is almost impossible for him, if he is convinced of the truth of his own reasoning, not to betray by silence, chance words, or general attitude that he is different from them and does not share their opinions. Some have preferred, like Socrates, some would prefer to-day, to face death rather than conceal their thoughts.

format_quote Originally Posted by Flame

God can choose to forgive you even if you haven't repented. He might be pleased with just one act of yours and hey presto! All your sins have been forgiven and you are admitted to Paradise. It can also work the other way round. You might have done a lot of good deeds. But He might be displeased with just one act of yours..... and boom! You're sent to Hell.

So it's better to be on the safer side and repent.... better to be humble and fear what's going to happen to you and repeatedly seek God's forgiveness.

By the way, I thought I might say this.... I am glad that you find Islam interesting enough to investigate. I hope you will have your questions answered satisfactorily in this forum.

Yes, its nice to be with you and just feel free to contribute and listen. Here I must say I feel a little startled as it sounds as if God is a little on the whimsical side doling his forgiveness out as he pleases with some sort of scale of goodness. In life there is usually a consequence, a cost to actions. So if I murder your brother (just in imagination), you may forgive me whether I repent or no and that is fine but your brother is still dead so one way or another there is a cost to forgiveness. Is this how you see it or how Islam treats God?