Mecca Problems

Hi guys.
I know this can be an outrageous topic but it needs to be given attention.

We all know Mecca in Saudi Arabia is considered the most sacred site in Islam. It was known an 'the mother of cities', and was a very important city in Arabia, in regard to religion as well as trade.

Yet, Mecca practically doesn't exist at least before the 7th century. No historical archaeological documents support Mecca as such a significant settlement. No historical maps acknowledge it. One would think that an important trade & religious centre would have some form of acknowledgement. But no. There was practically no Mecca.

Moreover, the geographical descriptions of Mecca as given in hadiths don't fit with the Mecca in Saudi Arabia. There is no parallel valley. There are no olive tree plantations. There are no fertile lands as there are supposed to be as given in hadiths.

So guys. What are your thoughts ? I think it's a very important topic to think about.

Welcome to IslamicBoard.

I think you are confusing between the Ahadith related to Makkah and Madinah. Madinah is mentioned in the Hadith as a fertile land with palm trees, not Makkah.

As for historical records, even Wikipedia can help you with your research: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca#History

Makkah as a city was non-existent before Ibrahim :as:. When Ibrahim :as: left his wife Hajra :raha: and son, Isma'eel :as: at the Ka'bah, it was a valley without cultivation (14:37). Later on, a tribe from Yemen stayed there and it became a city.


One of the reasons why you do not find Makkah in historical records is because historically, Arabs were nomads and they did not settle in a place. It was only after the emergence of Zamzam water (after Ibrahim :as: left his wife and son there) that people began settling there. Until then, it was a barren land.

its in the bible which predates the 7th century at least

ibn-Adam said:

Welcome to IslamicBoard.

I think you are confusing between the Ahadith related to Makkah and Madinah. Madinah is mentioned in the Hadith as a fertile land with palm trees, not Makkah.

As for historical records, even Wikipedia can help you with your research: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca#History

Makkah as a city was non-existent before Ibrahim :as:. When Ibrahim :as: left his wife Hajra :raha: and son, Isma'eel :as: at the Ka'bah, it was a valley without cultivation (14:37). Later on, a tribe from Yemen stayed there and it became a city.


One of the reasons why you do not find Makkah in historical records is because historically, Arabs were nomads and they did not settle in a place. It was only after the emergence of Zamzam water (after Ibrahim :as: left his wife and son there) that people began settling there. Until then, it was a barren land.

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Oh I'm sorry. I shouldn't have stated the word "fertile". And no, I am not confusing Mecca & Medina. But from the hadith, Mecca is a land of clay & loam and had water & trees & grass.

And I'm not talking of Mecca around prophet Ibrahim's time. I'm talking about the 4th /5th centuries, when prophet Muhammad was around and when the Quran was revealed, describing Mecca as a sanctuary, mother of cities. An important trade & religious centre. But then, there IS no mention of Mecca.

Moreover, remember the Quranic verse stating that the prophet used to pass by prophet Lut's town by day & night ? Prophet Lut's town is way up in northern Arabia ! To pass by it in the day & night, you have to live in close proximity to it. Not hundreds of kilometres further down.

thinkreal93 said:

Oh I'm sorry. I shouldn't have stated the word "fertile". And no, I am not confusing Mecca & Medina. But from the hadith, Mecca is a land of clay & loam and had water & trees & grass.

And I'm not talking of Mecca around prophet Ibrahim's time. I'm talking about the 4th /5th centuries, when prophet Muhammad was around and when the Quran was revealed, describing Mecca as a sanctuary, mother of cities. An important trade & religious centre. But then, there IS no mention of Mecca.

Moreover, remember the Quranic verse stating that the prophet used to pass by prophet Lut's town by day & night ? Prophet Lut's town is way up in northern Arabia ! To pass by it in the day & night, you have to live in close proximity to it. Not hundreds of kilometres further down.

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This is the first time someone has claimed this. You must heard things from someone thought them to be true. Can you quote the exact Hadith that you are referring to?

And also the Quranic verse that you are speaking about? There is no such verse that says Prophet Muhammad :saws: used to pass by the city of Lut :as: by day and night.

For the Quranic verses, see 37:137-138 "And indeed, you pass by them in the morning

And at night. Then will you not use reason?"

Moreover, see 20:128 "Then, has it not become clear to them how many generations We destroyed before them as they walk among their dwellings? Indeed in that are signs for those of intelligence." The generations talked about in the Quran are those of Thamud, 'Ad, Lut's people, Midyan etc. If you look it up, you may find all these ancient towns in northern Arabia. So Mecca should be situated on one of these places.
And as mentioned before, the place of Lut's people is passed by in the morning & night. It was on a well established road. (15:76). Meaning an important trade route.

As for the hadith regarding the land Mecca is supposed to have (but does not), see Sahih Bukhari 4:281, 9:337 and Tirmidhi 1537. Also Mecca supposed to be in a valley within which there is supposed to be a stream. I also read somewhere that the mountains Safa & Marwah are not actually in such close proximity as we see today in Mecca. However I don't know if this particular one is true or not.

There you have it.

Have you read the background and history of the Arab tribes? The verses that you have quoted refer to the well-known trade route of Quraish and other Arab tribes. They used to travel all the way from Yemen to Syria for trade, passing through Mada'in Saleh and several other towns.

In the verse 37:137 "And indeed, you pass by them in the morning", the you is in the plural form, in Arabic, وإنكم wa-innakum which clearly refers to the trade caravans and the people in general, not to the Prophet :saws: as an individual.

Read the Tafsir and understand the details:


And the other verses that you are referring to, all of them point to the same. Arabs were traders and their generations used to pass through the same route.


As for the Hadith, can you quote the Hadith directly here? Because the numbering that you have given seems confusing.
Bukhari 4:281 Do you mean this Hadith? http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/bukhari/bh4/bh4_284.htm
or this one? http://sunnah.com/bukhari/5/33
Tirmidhi 1537, Do you mean this one? http://sunnah.com/tirmidhi/20/15

None of these mention Makkah as a land of trees. As for water, there is Zamzam water. Everyone knows that.


What are you actually up to? Your intentions do not seem right.

I think everyone has posted enough information to help the OP if he had a genuine question. However, I will add that when people say "Oh Mecca didn't show up in maps before such and such century", which maps are they talking about ? There were hardly any maps covering the Arabian peninsula and there was not a single map, before the Islamic age, which could be regarded as a world map. certainly not an accurate one, so which map or maps is being mentioned here?

Also, Mecca is spoken about in historical texts previously, so again, there isn't much of a controversy or discussion here beyond the very basics of history.

For Bukhari 4:281 I mean the first link you provided.

For Bukhari 9:337 :Narrated Aisha: One night the Prophet was unable to sleep and said, "Would that a righteous man from my companions guarded me tonight." Suddenly we heard the clatter of arms, whereupon the Prophet said, "Who is it?" It was said, "I am Sa`d, O Allah's Apostle! I have come to guard you." The Prophet then slept so soundly that we heard him snoring. Abu `Abdullah said: `Aisha said: Bilal said, "Would that I but stayed overnight in a valley with Idhkhir and Jalil (two kinds of grass) around me (i.e., in Mecca)." Then I told that to the Prophet .


In al Tabari VI 1079 page 6, it shows that there was clay & loam in or around Mecca. But the Mecca of Saudi Arabia doesn't have any land of clay or loam.
Tabari talks about "Abdallah, the father of Muhammad visited a wife whom he had in addition to Aminah bint Wahb ibn ’Abd Manaf ibn Zuhrah. He had been working in the soil and traces of soil were still on him when he invited her to lie with him. She made him wait because of this. He went out, performed his ablutions, washed off the clay which was on him". *

I apologize, I think that was a numbering mistake I made & didn't notice for Tirmidhi. I assure you I'm not trying to deceive anyone. It is actually Tirmidhi 1535 :
Once when I was with the Prophet in Mecca and we went out into one of its districts in the neighbourhood, not a mountain or tree which confronted him failed to say, “Peace be upon you, Messenger of Allah.” Tirmidhi and Darimi transmitted it.*

And in Sirat Rasul Allah, 72 (Guillaume, 2006, pg 46)*When they came to Mecca they saw a town blessed with water and trees and delighted with it, they settled there.*


As for the Quran verses, I know it is in the plural and doesn't mean just the prophet. What caravan would finish it's business just in one day and return to it's city in night ?
And 20:128 doesn't refer to walking through ancient ruins during a trade journey. See how it says that "they walk among their dwellings". Meaning, it was a regular thing to do.

Born_Believer said:

I think everyone has posted enough information to help the OP if he had a genuine question. However, I will add that when people say "Oh Mecca didn't show up in maps before such and such century", which maps are they talking about ? There were hardly any maps covering the Arabian peninsula and there was not a single map, before the Islamic age, which could be regarded as a world map. certainly not an accurate one, so which map or maps is being mentioned here?

Also, Mecca is spoken about in historical texts previously, so again, there isn't much of a controversy or discussion here beyond the very basics of history.

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There were many historical maps before the Islamic age. 7th century Byzantine map shows no Mecca. 7th century Arab frankincense route map shows no Mecca !! Look up the multiple 7th century maps of Arabia. See Ptolemaeus' map for example.

Historical mentions of Mecca are very few, and those may actually be referring to other places. You see, there were multiple kaabas & temples in Arabia at that time to which Arabs paid visit.

thinkreal93 said:

So guys. What are your thoughts ?

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That you are a concern troll posing as a Muslim.

Futuwwa said:

That you are a concern troll posing as a Muslim.

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Well you're wrong. Sorry not sorry to burst your bubble.

Burst? LOL. You still have provided absolutely no reason for me to doubt my assessment. You come here claiming to be concerned about a topic, but once people engage you, you do nothing but argue a predetermined position with an array of obviously prepared points.

Futuwwa said:

Burst? LOL. You still have provided absolutely no reason for me to doubt my assessment. You come here claiming to be concerned about a topic, but once people engage you, you do nothing but argue a predetermined position with an array of obviously prepared points.

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Well yes, you may call it predetermined because I looked into this whole topic and therefore brought the topic to this forum with my "obviously prepared points". And yes it is a topic of concern, as it should be.

While showing no interest in anything anyone else says, other than how to refute it. Also, interestingly enough, you seem to "know" all kind of little minutiae, but then, you say that "Muhammad was around and the Quran was revealed" in the 4th / 5th centuries. Dude, that's two centuries off, an elementary school religion class level basic error. The Hijrah is classically held to have happened in 622 AD. No, the truth of the matter is, you found a polemic somewhere, ate it up uncritically, and are now posing as a concerned Muslim in order to peddle it.

Not saying you aren't a Muslim at all, since that'd be a severe sin in case you actually are one, which I maintain there's a tiny probability of being the case. If you are one though, you're not a very knowledgeable one at all, and obviously out looking for pretexts to disbelieve.

Troll better next time.

Futuwwa said:

While showing no interest in anything anyone else says, other than how to refute it. Also, interestingly enough, you seem to "know" all kind of little minutiae, but then, you say that "Muhammad was around and the Quran was revealed" in the 4th / 5th centuries. Dude, that's two centuries off, an elementary school religion class level basic error. The Hijrah is classically held to have happened in 622 AD. No, the truth of the matter is, you found a polemic somewhere, ate it up uncritically, and are now posing as a concerned Muslim in order to peddle it.

Not saying you aren't a Muslim at all, since that'd be a severe sin in case you actually are one, which I maintain there's a tiny probability of being the case. If you are one though, you're not a very knowledgeable one at all, and obviously out looking for pretexts to disbelieve.

Troll better next time.

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Believe what you want. Defending my motive is not my primary concern.

I know I made a few mistakes (for some God-knows-what reason) in the initial posts. I accepted it & corrected myself. That doesn't disqualify the topic. And it's a pretty genuine topic that needs attention. If you're not interested in the facts, you don't have to care about it.

How cute. Now you're hiding behind the topic and its importance, and want to disassociate it from your person, and implying that anyone who doesn't humour you is uninterested in truth. That, after a failed attempt at manipulation by posing as something you're not. Ummm, no.

Futuwwa said:

How cute. Now you're hiding behind the topic and its importance, and want to disassociate it from your person, and implying that anyone who doesn't humour you is uninterested in truth. That, after a failed attempt at manipulation by posing as something you're not. Ummm, no.

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Uuhhhh.... What ??!!
Sure...

thinkreal93 said:

Hi guys.

Yet, Mecca practically doesn't exist at least before the 7th century.

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Hi yaself (or salaam rather)

Listen to some logical output from me.

Absence of Proof does not equate to Proof of Absence.

I guess you didn't learn LOGIC in class.

Ever heard of Herodotus,? Pliny the Elder? Pseudo Calisthenes? Pseudo Methodius? Josephus? etc etc etc?

Your proof is there, within those historians records.

Scimi

thinkreal93 said:

There were many historical maps before the Islamic age. 7th century Byzantine map shows no Mecca. 7th century Arab frankincense route map shows no Mecca !! Look up the multiple 7th century maps of Arabia. See Ptolemaeus' map for example.

Historical mentions of Mecca are very few, and those may actually be referring to other places. You see, there were multiple kaabas & temples in Arabia at that time to which Arabs paid visit.

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Again, I am asking you for any single world map before the Muslims first drew it. Can you link me to one?

You mention Ptolemy's map and then say no more. Do you know how that map was actually created and what it features? It's loosely based on some of Ptolemy's writings at the time and the use of longitude and latitude but misses out large chunks of the world which he and others who were involved in it's illustration, did not know about. Did you know that almost all of the southern half of Africa is missing?

So, I guess by your logic, southern Africa only came into existence in the 7th century? :facepalm:

Seriously man, if you want to troll, you might try harder.