Hypothesis: Successive Authority and Iblis (Satan), Wisdom behind origin of Humanity

format_quote Originally Posted by SuRvIvOr123

Are you revert al yunani. I was actually having a laugh with him (not being rude).


I respect your view of this Successor not being a single person, as for the knowledge of the unseen, they can be divided into two types:

- Knowledge of the eternal past and future
- Secrets of the Universe (ghayb us samaawaati wal ard

The first type, no one can know except Allah the almighty.

The second type, a creation can know about it but only to a certain limit, depending on their rank. If this successor exists, then he would transcend the entire universe and be at Allah's side (close to His Throne). What this means is that the Successor would be well-aquainted with the affairs of Allah with His creation. It would not be permissible for the successor to disclose any of His knowledge without His permission.

As for Allah creating a new creation, my point was that He loves worship, and perhaps He would bring out someone from this new creation who would worship Him the way He deserves, something neither the angels nor djinn nor the rest of mankind are able to do

No I am not revert al yunani,

I already understood that you divided ghayb into two categories, however, even your second type means infinite knowledge because the secrets of the universe is unlimited.
we humans are not just finite creatures...we are very very limited creatures. We use science to discover some of the secrets of the universe, but that what we have discovered so far is not even the tip of the iceberg.
We are not designed to contain such knowledge...besides, if someone has all the knowledge of the second type, wouldn't he be able to derive (at least a part of) knowledge of the eternal past and future? (which is impossible)

The successor how you define the word should be someone powerful. someone with infinite knowledge. we humans are not designed for such a task, but then again, we do not have to. The only thing that counts is that we are willingly serving Allah. That makes us the successors of Allah...the highest of ranks...the best of creation.

so I don't think this definition of yours about the successor is correct.

Again, I understand your view and the justification behind it. Humans are finite creatures, but we must never underestimate or doubt Allah's ability to make one of His slaves from among humanity His Deputy and Right Hand.
This is like asking how the dead will be resurrected. If we believe in resurrection, then the hypothetical scenario of Allah choosing His successor from amongst humanity must not strike a doubt in our hearts

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The universe has a limit. There are 7 heavens in total. Had the universe been infinite as atheists like to say, then this would conflict with the transcendence of Allah the Almighty.

Allah is above His Throne above the universe, and so the universe must be finite. Yes, we humans are so small that to us this universe may seem infinite.

For example, if you were a king of a land, then you would never disclose personal information about the country to your people except that which benefits them.
However, at the same time, if you had a deputy by your side, then that deputy would be the only person to whom you would disclose any secret information, and that deputy would not disclose any of the information to your people without your permission.

To Allah belongs the highest examples, and the rank of the Successor would be the pinnacle of what a creation can achieve, there cannot possibly be another rank higher than this. The name "Successor" says it all.

No.
I do not agree with you on this one.

It is all pretty clear.

Allah said:
“Indeed, I will place in earth a Khalifah” [2:30]

Then He Created this successor or Khalifah (Adam as) and ordered everyone to bow before it.
Iblis refused and said fire is better than clay so he will continue to lead mankind off the right path until judgement day.

So either the successor is Adam as, or the human kind in general.
If it was just Adam as, then Iblis would just make effort to lead only Adam as off the right path...we know that is not true.
Therefore, "the successor" is not only Adam as, it is the human kind in general...but only the believers of course...the non-believers are the worst of all creation.

let me put it in a different way.

Before humans, Iblis was the successor...he was the most powerful creature in existence, even more powerful than the angels and other jinns. He was one of a kind.
when Allah created Adam as, Ibliss who was very very powerful lost that successor status to Adam as, which compared to Iblis is a weak, limited creature.
He could not bare that Adam as, despite being limited and weak was higher in rank than he, therefore he swore to lead all of mankind off the right path...
This means that not just Adam as has the successor status, the whole righteous believing human kind has this successor status.

Believing that Allah chooses one successor among humans and gives him knowledge of the ghayb among with perhaps other powers to rule over the universe as His right hand is in my opinion as wrong as you can get.

Well, at the end of the day it is just a perspective from the many perspectives on the concept of Khalifah. Adam AS could not have been the true Successor as Allah had made him a prophet. The same goes for every other prophet and messenger (they had a fixed duty to perform).

Not many people know or even believe in such a concept because perhaps, the Almighty has reserved this station for one person only. As a result, there would be no false claimants and hence no one would even commit shirk by praying (supplicating) to the successor, like many people do regarding the awliyaa and saints.

Other factors which lead to differences in views regarding the hypothesis is the varying sects and different understanding of Tawheed.

It was nice speaking to you, though, I apologise again for my misconduct, and wish you all the best in your journey towards paradise.

May Allah grant us all goodness.

I would like to add to my previous comment: Iblis was not the successor, but rather the head of a certain group of angels. Allah would never prefer or make equal any of His creations over His Successor.

The fact that iblis was commanded to bow to adam proves that He did not Succeed Allah the Almighty.

Iblis is perhaps ignorant when it comes to the wisdom of Allah, and why He prefers humanity over other creations (mainly because of the nature of humility of clay).
Iblis is trying to prove a point by leading most of humanity astray into the hellfire, but perhaps Allah is responding by telling him that the purpose of creating humanity was not to save them all from hell, but something else.

Moreover, it is not befitting for the successor to rule the universe on behalf of the Almighty. If you had read my research clearly, you would see that I mentioned 5 categories which is befitting for non except Allah to perform:
1) creation
2) provision
3) legislation
4) judgement
5) management (ruling the universe)

format_quote Originally Posted by SuRvIvOr123

I would like to add to my previous comment: Iblis was not the successor, but rather the head of a certain group of angels.

According the definition of successor you assume to be true. Successor can also simply mean "highest of ranks", "best of creations". you cannot just rule that out.

format_quote Originally Posted by SuRvIvOr123

Allah would never prefer or make equal any of His creations over His Successor.

According the definition of successor you assume to be true. Successor can also simply mean "highest of ranks", "best of creations". you cannot just rule that out.

format_quote Originally Posted by SuRvIvOr123

The fact that iblis was commanded to bow to adam proves that He did not Succeed Allah the Almighty.

again...According the definition of successor you assume to be true. Successor can also simply mean "highest of ranks", "best of creations". you cannot just rule that out.

format_quote Originally Posted by SuRvIvOr123

Iblis is perhaps ignorant when it comes to the wisdom of Allah, and why He prefers humanity over other creations (mainly because of the nature of humility of clay).
Iblis is trying to prove a point by leading most of humanity astray into the hellfire, but perhaps Allah is responding by telling him that the purpose of creating humanity was not to save them all from hell, but something else.

Moreover, it is not befitting for the successor to rule the universe on behalf of the Almighty. If you had read my research clearly, you would see that I mentioned 5 categories which is befitting for non except Allah to perform:
1) creation
2) provision
3) legislation
4) judgement
5) management (ruling the universe)

Well...I lack the needed knowledge to give you a definite answer on this subject, but just jumping into conclusions because of not more than hunches and assumptions is risky.

So I cannot prove you wrong...but my gut feeling still says that this hypothesis is wrong on all sides.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

According the definition of successor you assume to be true. Successor can also simply mean "highest of ranks", "best of creations". you cannot just rule that out.

According the definition of successor you assume to be true. Successor can also simply mean "highest of ranks", "best of creations". you cannot just rule that out.

again...According the definition of successor you assume to be true. Successor can also simply mean "highest of ranks", "best of creations". you cannot just rule that out.

The core linguistic meaning of the word Successor is "to follow", "to be the second-most to the first". For example, if I am the tallest person in a group of people, and the second tallest is you, and there is no other person who is taller than you and shorter than me, then by definition, you "Succeed" me in height i.e. you are the second-most to me. This the universal definition and I did not make this up.

You may say: "Well, what if another person joins the group who is taller than me but shorter than you, that means that someone else Succeeds you in height". My Answer: Well, the difference between the example and reality is that in reality, every single being in existence is a creation of Allah, and there is no living being except that Allah is the Sole creator of it. So by definition, out of all of Allah's creation, only one creature may succeed Him.

Allah is the Owner and Absolute King, there is nothing equal to Him, but the closest a slave of His can come to Him is to Succeed Him i.e. to be the second-most to Him in status and greatness. i.e. Allah is the greatest. The second in greatness would be His Successor, in other words, the Successor would follow in greatness to Allah, such that there cannot be another creation who would be greater than the Successor and closer to Allah than him.

If we look at the world around us, every single leader, prime minister, king, mafia boss or CEO has or has the potential of having a successor (one who would succeed the first in authority without the first disappearing.

If we say that the above logic is wrong, then by that very logic there could have been multiple people who would have held the title of the "Last and Final Messenger". It does not make any sense, because there can only be 'One' last, and 'One' first, and hence 'One' who succeeds the first.

Our Prophet PBUH was the last and final messenger sent to humanity and Djinn, and is the Imam (leader) of all the Prophets. There cannot be 'Multiple' leaders as this would result in authority-related conflict.

Yes, the Successor is replaceable should he disobey or rebel against Allah the Almighty.

Because there can only be One King, One Sovereign, there can also only be one Successor to that King and Sovereign, who would succeed in Authority (Sovereignty on the other hand, belongs to Allah). Had there been multiple creations who would share in Succession, then there would be conflict.

Because of the above, if there is a Successor to Allah, then if Allah favors another creation over His Successor, then this would be injustice, and Allah has forbidden injustice upon Himself.

"but just jumping into conclusions because of not more than hunches and assumptions is risky." <--

Hence, I have called this work a hypothesis. It is something that is entirely possible, but We cannot affirm it ourselves. A Hypothesis is a theory or assumption based on limited evidence.

The same can be said for other concepts such as the "Existence of Aliens" or "The Possibility of Time Travel" etc... we can only hypothesize, but not conclude with it 100%

format_quote Originally Posted by SuRvIvOr123

The core linguistic meaning of the word Successor is "to follow", "to be the second-most to the first". For example, if I am the tallest person in a group of people, and the second tallest is you, and there is no other person who is taller than you and shorter than me, then by definition, you "Succeed" me in height i.e. you are the second-most to me. This the universal definition and I did not make this up.

You may say: "Well, what if another person joins the group who is taller than me but shorter than you, that means that someone else Succeeds you in height". My Answer: Well, the difference between the example and reality is that in reality, every single being in existence is a creation of Allah, and there is no living being except that Allah is the Sole creator of it. So by definition, out of all of Allah's creation, only one creature may succeed Him.

Allah is the Owner and Absolute King, there is nothing equal to Him, but the closest a slave of His can come to Him is to Succeed Him i.e. to be the second-most to Him in status and greatness. i.e. Allah is the greatest. The second in greatness would be His Successor, in other words, the Successor would follow in greatness to Allah, such that there cannot be another creation who would be greater than the Successor and closer to Allah than him.

If we look at the world around us, every single leader, prime minister, king, mafia boss or CEO has or has the potential of having a successor (one who would succeed the first in authority without the first disappearing.

If we say that the above logic is wrong, then by that very logic there could have been multiple people who would have held the title of the "Last and Final Messenger". It does not make any sense, because there can only be 'One' last, and 'One' first, and hence 'One' who succeeds the first.

Our Prophet PBUH was the last and final messenger sent to humanity and Djinn, and is the Imam (leader) of all the Prophets. There cannot be 'Multiple' leaders as this would result in authority-related conflict.

Yes, the Successor is replaceable should he disobey or rebel against Allah the Almighty.

Because there can only be One King, One Sovereign, there can also only be one Successor to that King and Sovereign, who would succeed in Authority (Sovereignty on the other hand, belongs to Allah). Had there been multiple creations who would share in Succession, then there would be conflict.

Because of the above, if there is a Successor to Allah, then if Allah favors another creation over His Successor, then this would be injustice, and Allah has forbidden injustice upon Himself.

Yes, that is exactly the definition I thought was true.

I thought you meant more like "ruling the universe as a deputee"...making decisions for Allah and stuff like that. Then we understood each other wrong...Im sorry for that...but you specifically spoke about a deputee and Allah granting the successor knowledge of the unseen (second part) etc.
I have a problem with that definition of successor. The way you describe it now is OK.

Alhamdulillah. It was perhaps an error on my part. I should have clarified what the hypothetical Successor cannot do before I mentioned his qualities.

At the end of the day, it is a possibility. But we must acknowledge that Allah is not in need of a Successor, and that if He does take a Successor, it does not add to His kingdom in the slightest.

Knowledge of the unseen belongs to Allah alone, and if He takes a Successor, then that Successor would be the most knowledgeable creation to know the unseen (it does not mean that the Successor knows EVERYTHING).


I'm glad we understand each other. Perhaps I should do a hypothesis on Time Travel, or the possibility of the existence of Aliens.