In what sense is Jesus (as) God's "Son"?

[Grace Seeker]

How do you know they are untrue?

Why it was possible for God to tell you the truth, and impossible for God to tell others the same truth?

I didn't say I know them to be untrue; I said I hold them to be untrue.

 

[Oleander]

I didn't say I know them to be untrue; I said I hold them to be untrue.

You see how unconsistant Christians are?

Muslim: Impossibale for God to be a dove, or a man?

Christians: Why not, you're putting God in a box, "with God nothing is impossible".

Muslim: Impossibale for God to be a man.

Christians: The same answer as the above!


Buddhist: Buddha the man was God walking on earth.

Christians: Huh, everything possibale with God except this one!

Hindus: The cow has the spirit of God in it."with God nothing is impossible"

Christians: Noway, not this one either!


Look who is putting God in a box: Christians believe only god was in a man called Jesus, and a ghost in shape of dove, that's it.


BTW, why you hold them untrue, and you hold yours to be true?

 

[Grace Seeker]

You see how unconsistant Christians are?

Muslim: Impossibale for God to be a dove, or a man?

Christians: Why not, you're putting God in a box, "with God nothing is impossible".

Muslim: Impossibale for God to be a man.

Christians: The same answer as the above!


Buddhist: Buddha the man was God walking on earth.

Christians: Huh, everything possibale with God except this one!

Hindus: The cow has the spirit of God in it."with God nothing is impossible"

Christians: Noway, not this one either!

You are mis-stating what I said. Read again. I never said those portions which you have attributed to Christians that I have highlighted in bold above.

If you do not know the difference between the statement I made and the statement you claim I made, then you should be sure to quote people exactly and not try to paraphrase, because your paraphrases are incorrect expressions of what I have said. Further they show a complete lack of understanding of some significant differences between the concepts what is possible and what is actual.

 

[doorster]

but but, you are perhaps misunderstanding him/her too?
the way I read his/her posts is that:

You are being seen as representative of Christendom, which says that none but those who believe in divinity of Christ are saved

 

[MustafaMc]

Not in any biological sense of the word Son. But I have also shown that Jesus was the one and only one who is referred to in scripture by the title "THE Son of God."

Beyond this, the term Son does refer to the nature of an eternal relationship that exists within the very nature of the one God of his being bnoth an eteranl Father and an eternal Son, for you cannot have an eternal Father without the presence of an eternal child.

So Son refers to the relationship between TWO Beings - the Father and the Son. But even if one refers to the second Being as THE Son and the first as being THE Father, it still does not define in what sense this second one is a "son" to the first outside of that "eternal relationship". Even this circular argument points to TWO beings not one.

And this is what the term that gets translated "begetting" refers to, and over which Arius wanted to argue. Arius saw this term and conceived in his own mind that this meant that the Son had some sort of beginning.

What you stated does not relate to the act of begetting, but rather the nature of being unique.

So there does exist within the nature and character of God himself this unique divine community that the ancient writers saw reflected in the Father/Son relationship, hence the evolution of those terms to refer to it.

But the prophets of the OT had no concept of a Father/Son God.

Jesus is God's Son in the same sense that we think of God as our Father.

And in the same sense that we can think of God as our Father, we must remember that the Biblical (or at least New Testament) understanding of God includes both Father and Son. The Father is no more God than the Son is God. So if we can think of God as the Father, we should also think of God as the Son. And if we stumble over that, then we are not yet thinking Biblically, but with some other content in our head.

Sorry, but that content has been erased from my understanding.

 

[MustafaMc]

Here is another: Luke 5:24
But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins

Only God can forgive sin, which is a fairly blatant example of what Christ is claiming about Himself.

Yes, I would agree with you if the verse is true. Given the importance of this capability are there other examples of Jesus (as) forgiving one's sins?

I'm slightly unsure of what you are asking, other than verses which point to and express Christ's divine origin. Perhaps if you re-ask the question in more specific terms I can be more specific with a reply.

It is incomprehensible to Muslims for Allah to be within a human body and do the things we do only in private and for Him to be required to get sustenance from His creation. I know of Jesus' human nature, but I am having trouble seeing his God nature. Perhaps, you have some personal insight or an illustrative parable to shed new light on the question.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Mustafa, maybe you want to try again. I read your post twice, and it seems that you were affirming what I said, but I hardly would think you would mean to do so. So, I read it again, and read them the same. Don't know if it is what you said or the way I read it that is off, but maybe if you could restate it would make more sense to me. Or am I to be shocked that you actually were affirming the things I said?

 

[MustafaMc]

Can God(as) make a 4 sided triangle? The answer is no. The statement is a faulty statement and self limiting because by defenition a triangle has 3 sides. If it has any other number it is not a triangle.

Now define what a man is:

Is a man immortal? (No, he is born and he dies.)
Is a man created? (Yes, we don't believe in a "spontaneous existence" outside of being created by a Creator.)
Is a man equal to God(swt)? (No, a created being is not equal to his Creator.)

Now define God(swt) with those same three questions. Can God(swt) have those same attributes man has and still be God(swt) or are we now back to the 4 sided triangle?

Is God immortal? (Yes, he is neither born nor does He die.)
Is God created? (No, the Creator is not a created Being else His creator would be God.)
Is God equal to a man? (No, the Creator is greater than His creation.)

Another set of questions:
Does God change and evolve?
Did The Son look like Jesus before his birth to Mary?
Does Jesus as he now sits at the right-hand of the Father look like his pre-birth image, his earthly human body, or his transfigured body?
What will Jesus look like upon his return to earth?

 

[Yanal]

Apologies for my other post.
But some Muslims might look at that statement that prophet Jesus (as) was born without a father but Allah willed he was born so he was doesn't that mean that he is the son of Allah (forgive if I am wrong)
Need opinions.

 

[MustafaMc]

Apologies for my other post.
But some Muslims might look at that statement that prophet Jesus (as) was born without a father but Allah willed he was born so he was doesn't that mean that he is the son of Allah (forgive if I am wrong)
Need opinions.

In that case Adam was doubly so as he had no father or mother. No, it is incorrect to say that Jesus (as) is the son of Allah in any sense of the word. Allah said "Be!" and he was.

 

[Yanal]

apologies

 

[Oleander]

QUOTE=Grace Seeker;1028775]. I never said those portions which you have attributed to Christians that I have highlighted in bold above.


Oleander>>I never claim you did, I was giving only example how CHRISTIANS answer our question.

I believe I know very well your name is not Christians but Grace Seeker.

 

[MustafaMc]

Mustafa, maybe you want to try again. I read your post twice, and it seems that you were affirming what I said, but I hardly would think you would mean to do so. So, I read it again, and read them the same. Don't know if it is what you said or the way I read it that is off, but maybe if you could restate it would make more sense to me. Or am I to be shocked that you actually were affirming the things I said?

I am not sure what you are saying about affirming what you said, rather I was replying to Keltoi. If the verse was actually said by Jesus, in the context indicated, that he was willing and able to forgive someone's sins, then that seems to be a God-like characteristic to me. I am not saying that I necessarily believe that it IS true, but if it were it would make me wonder.

Do you have other examples of Jesus forgiving sins? If so, this is more amazing to me than all of the miracles that he performed, for even Paul is indicated as having raised the dead to life. If it was so, why would people be concerned about mundane things like leprosy, blindness, cripple, etc. For myself, I would take forgiveness over even being raised from the dead.

 

[SixTen]

I am not sure what you are saying about affirming what you said, rather I was replying to Keltoi. If the verse was actually said by Jesus, in the context indicated, that he was willing and able to forgive someone's sins, then that seems to be a God-like characteristic to me. I am not saying that I necessarily believe that it IS true, but if it were it would make me wonder.

Do you have other examples of Jesus forgiving sins? If so, this is more amazing to me than all of the miracles that he performed, for even Paul is indicated as having raised the dead to life. If it was so, why would people be concerned about mundane things like leprosy, blindness, cripple, etc. For myself, I would take forgiveness over even being raised from the dead.

I'd say its because, you can't see "forgiveness", so to say - but you can see someone being cured of blindness etc.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I am not sure what you are saying about affirming what you said, rather I was replying to Keltoi.

I was referring to your post #85 in this thread where you quoted and replied to my previous post.

If the verse was actually said by Jesus, in the context indicated, that he was willing and able to forgive someone's sins, then that seems to be a God-like characteristic to me. I am not saying that I necessarily believe that it IS true, but if it were it would make me wonder.

And given that we Christian accept the recorded Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luike, and John, perhaps you have a better understanding of why it is that even though Jesus is never quoted in them as saying "I am God" in exactly those 3 words, that we nonetheless believe he did claim to be God by his actions and other things (along with other things that he is reported to have said).

Do you have other examples of Jesus forgiving sins? If so, this is more amazing to me than all of the miracles that he performed, for even Paul is indicated as having raised the dead to life. If it was so, why would people be concerned about mundane things like leprosy, blindness, cripple, etc. For myself, I would take forgiveness over even being raised from the dead.

Matthew and Mark record parallels to the story Keltoi provided from Luke:

Matthew 9
2Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven."
3At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, "This fellow is blaspheming!"

4Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? 6But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...." Then he said to the paralytic, "Get up, take your mat and go home." 7And the man got up and went home. 8When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men.

Mark 2
A few days later, when Jesus again entered Capernaum, the people heard that he had come home. 2So many gathered that there was no room left, not even outside the door, and he preached the word to them. 3Some men came, bringing to him a paralytic, carried by four of them. 4Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus and, after digging through it, lowered the mat the paralyzed man was lying on. 5When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."
6Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7"Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?"

8Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, "Why are you thinking these things? 9Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, take your mat and walk'? 10But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins . . . ." He said to the paralytic, 11"I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home." 12He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, "We have never seen anything like this!"

Jesus doesn't just offer his personal forgiveness as a human being, but pronounces again the type of forgiveness of sins that only God can do on a woman during a dinner banquet:

Luke 7
36Now one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, so he went to the Pharisee's house and reclined at the table. 37When a woman who had lived a sinful life in that town learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee's house, she brought an alabaster jar of perfume, 38and as she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them.
39When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is—that she is a sinner."

40Jesus answered him, "Simon, I have something to tell you."
"Tell me, teacher," he said.

41"Two men owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. 42Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he canceled the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?"

43Simon replied, "I suppose the one who had the bigger debt canceled."
"You have judged correctly," Jesus said.

44Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. 46You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. 47Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."

48Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."

49The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?"

50Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Jesus proclaims that his blood brings forgiveness to others:

This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. (Matthew 26:28)

 

[MustafaMc]

Examples of Jesus forgiving the sins of another human as reported in the Bible:

Matthew 9:2 And behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, be of good cheer; thy sins are forgiven.
3 And behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.
4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
5 For which is easier, to say, Thy sins are forgiven; or to say, Arise, and walk?
6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath authority on earth to forgive sins (then saith he to the sick of the palsy), Arise, and take up thy bed, and go up unto thy house.
7 And he arose, and departed to his house.
8 But when the multitudes saw it, they were afraid, and glorified God, who had given such authority unto men.

Note the acknowledgment that this is a blasphemous act for a man and that verse 8 indicates the authority for a MAN to heal and presumably to forgive was given by God. Jesus was not acknowledged as being God. This story is also found in Mark 2:3-12 and Luke 5:18-26, but not in John.

There is another apparent example in Luke 7:44-50 And turning to the woman, he said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thy house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath wetted my feet with her tears, and wiped them with her hair.
45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but she, since the time I came in, hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but she hath anointed my feet with ointment.
47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, [the same] loveth little.
48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that even forgiveth sins?
50 And he said unto the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace. In this passage it seems that the woman's faith and acts of blessing Jesus are what saved her.

But in another passage Jesus asked the Father to forgive those who were crucifying him. Luke 23:34 And Jesus said, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And parting his garments among them, they cast lots. If Jesus could forgive the cripple of his lifelong accumulation of sins, why could he not forgive those who had harmed him personally?

 

[MustafaMc]

Grace Seeker, I was writing my post above and did not see your post. Interesting that we quoted the same passages.

 

[MustafaMc]

I was referring to your post #85 in this thread where you quoted and replied to my previous post.

I don't see what is amazing about my post to indicate perhaps agreement about a unique relationship between Jesus and God as my point in the post was that a relationship indicates TWO separate individuals not ONE being. As the saying goes, "It takes two to tango." This theme is consistent with Jesus praying to the Father in the Garden.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Examples of Jesus forgiving the sins of another human as reported in the Bible:

Matthew 9 Note the acknowledgment that this is a blasphemous act for a man and that verse 8 indicates the authority for a MAN to heal and presumably to forgive was given by God. Jesus was not acknowledged as being God. This story is also found in Mark 2:3-12 and Luke 5:18-26, but not in John.

There is another apparent example in Luke 7:44-50 In this passage it seems that the woman's faith and acts of blessing Jesus are what saved her.

The point being with both of these that you asked for places where Jesus did forgive sins. I guess whether he actually forgave or just pronounced a forgivenss that he had no authority to pronounce depends on whether one views Jesus as God or not. But let us not say that Jesus who understood that only God had authority to forgive then went ahead and made these pronouncements when we say that Jesus never claimed to be God. His actions show that he did. Now, you may say that he was not God. That is exactly why the Jews called him a blasphemer. But if these Jews were right in labeling him a blasphemer, then Jesus wasn't the true prophet who never sinned that Islam holds Jesus to be. And if the Jews were wrong, then Jesus is exactly the God that Christianity holds him to be.

Islam's only option, it would seem, is to deny that the recorded events ever happened.

But in another passage Jesus asked the Father to forgive those who were crucifying him. Luke 23:34 And Jesus said, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And parting his garments among them, they cast lots. If Jesus could forgive the cripple of his lifelong accumulation of sins, why could he not forgive those who had harmed him personally?

You make a good point here. Obviously he could have (and I suspect that he did without ever uttering it aloud).

So, then why would Jesus have said this? Sadly, this is one of those places where Muslims may be correct about an altered text. As we don't have the original and only copies of what Luke wrote, and the weight of evidence from those earliest copies is split over whether Jesus ever uttered these words or not, the inclusion of Luke 23:34 is actually in dispute. It is in some of the earliest texts, but it is not in others. Thus, the very earliests copies of the text are split on whether it was an original saying of Jesus or added later. I'll not bore you with the technical nature of the process used to reach one conclusion or the other, but arguments go both ways. Ultimately the United Bible Societies, the Greek text I prefer, believes it to be an addition of "dominical origin"; while the editors of the New International Version believe elements in it "speak strongly for [its] genuiness" and they have therefore included it in their English translation.

Either way, one should not infer from either the verse's absence (if that was original) nor from its presence (if that was original) and Jesus' calling on the Father to forgive them, that Jesus himself was unforgiving. There is nothing in the text to suggest that. If anything, I would infer from such a saying that Jesus is in fact forgiving and is asking his Father to join with him in offering that forgiveness.

 

[MustafaMc]

Islam's only option, it would seem, is to deny that the recorded events ever happened.

I agree with your reasoning, hence my statement above, "If the verse was actually said by Jesus, in the context indicated, that he was willing and able to forgive someone's sins, then that seems to be a God-like characteristic to me." However, the context of the statement seems odd to me. If Jesus wanted to assert his authority to forgive sins, a more fitting setting would have been when the adulteress was brought by the Pharisees in John 8:3 and in 8:5 Jesus was asked "Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such: what then sayest thou of her?" In that context, Jesus statement to the cripple would have been perfectly pertinent. Rather after the accusers walked away, Jesus replied to the woman in verse 11, "Neither do I condemn thee: go thy way; from henceforth sin no more." There is a difference between not condemning with punishment and actively forgiving the sin.

If anything, I would infer from such a saying that Jesus is in fact forgiving and is asking his Father to join with him in offering that forgiveness.

In this case of the people who had crucified Jesus and the case of the cripple, neither party was repentant of their sins. Can their be forgiveness of sin without remorse and repentance?