Somali millitants destroy Churches, graves.

[Omar_Mukhtar]

Is it ok to tear down every mosque that's in disrepair? If it is empty is it no longer a holy site?

it depends on the context.

 

[Izyan]

it depends on the context.

Explain

 

[Muezzin]

all the media is up in arms and muslims line up to apologise for Islam when an empty building, which is in ruins, is destroyed. But no international media reports AND no Muslims line up on ALjazeera when Ethiopia militia occupy nearly every masjid in Muqdisho, us them as military bases, prevent people from worshipping or butcher Islamic scholars to death.

You know, it is possible to hate evil deeds wherever they're performed.

Besides, even if the church is in ruins, that does not excuse the desecration of graves, Sufi or not.

 

[Silver Pearl]

:wasalamex


Al-Shabaab are just the definition of wrong! I don't understand how anyone can agree with the actions of these people if you see the things they say and do. Allaah yahdeekum! Not only are they putting Somalis to shame, they are insulting Islaam!


Enough time is given to these people who don't even deserve anything but education. They should retun to their Qur'aan classes and join in with the subcis rather than straying the minds of children by spreading filth! The true Heroes of Somalia are the young men who study, not these people who go around shooting innocent people and taking the maal of others, not to mention the lives of muslimeen!


Allaah yahdeekum!!

 

[S1aveofA11ah]

Why would you seek even 1 excuse if the act is inexcusable? When christians blow up abortion clinics I don't look for excuses I look for culpability and punishment.

Things in life and in Islam are not just black and white. My main point was TOO LOOK FOR MORE INFORMATION before running with a judgement. Who owned the Church?, Who owned the land it was built on? etc. maybe it belonged to the Muslims of the local area.

If my memory serves me right I heard of a law in the UK which states that if a building is occupied by squatters for 22 years and no-one comes forward claiming it (hence chucks them out) then it becomes the property of the squatters. A free mansion by squatting in it might sound 'inexcusable' to the ill-informed but the law states it perfectly legal and possible. Again, my point is - everything is not black and white.

The building had no-one using it for 20 years. Of course, IF these Muslims stole this building from Christains living there (or somewhere else) who owned it then this is a clear matter of a forceful wrong. Theft and oppression are haram as I'm sure you know.

Your analoogy of abortion clincs is poor in my view. Blowing up a clinc could result in the death/injury of innocent people nearby (or maybe inside). What these people did - to dismantling a deserted building - presents no life threatening dangers. I'm sure they were wise enough to check for people inside first and doubt they used tons of TNT to do the job.

I'm not saying churchs should be violated in anyway whatsoever. If I saw a person so much as put a daub of paint on a local church building I would be informing the police before you could say the word 'graffitti'!. Same for synagogues or Hindu Temples - any building for that matter. If Christains need churches to follow their religion then so be it.

You've made the act inexcusbale and it seems so clear that more evidence is required.

 

[S1aveofA11ah]

Is it ok to tear down every mosque that's in disrepair? If it is empty is it no longer a holy site?

He said the church was in ruins - thats a far cry from 'disrepair'!.

Of course every mosque with some wallpaper hanging off doesn't require tearing down!. The issue needs probing. This is a war torn environment - things are upside down.

For all we know the building might have been structually unsound and a potential danger hence it was 'taken out'.

Bush claimed Iraq had WMD, the papers printed these claims for the public, then he went to war on that premise. It didn't mean it was true as time prooved.

 

[Amadeus85]

Fishman posted this thread in good will, to show what he dislikes in the actions of those who use his religion at banners. What they have done was bad, but probably today worse things have hapenned.

 

[Muezzin]

He said the church was in ruins - thats a far cry from 'disrepair'!.

Of course every mosque with some wallpaper hanging off doesn't require tearing down!. The issue needs probing. This is a war torn environment - things are upside down.

For all we know the building might have been structually unsound and a potential danger hence it was 'taken out'.

And the desecration of the graves?

 

[noorahmad]

i think we should keep our views till we get some more information about it

 

[S1aveofA11ah]

And the desecration of the graves?

Well before going on to them do you agree with my point first (which is that it is wiser to get the full facts first before running with judgements and that seeking 70 excuses for your Brother/Sister is highly important in Islam)?.

 

[Fishman]

Well before going on to them do you agree with my point first (which is that it is wiser to get the full facts first before running with judgements and that seeking 70 excuses for your Brother/Sister is highly important in Islam)?.

If I saw them (and they weren't trying to kill me) I would ask them why they did it. But since that is not an option, then we should us the evidence presented to us. And it was taken from an Arab website, so you can't play the conspiracy card.

 

[S1aveofA11ah]

If I saw them (and they weren't trying to kill me) I would ask them why they did it. But since that is not an option, then we should us the evidence presented to us. And it was taken from an Arab website, so you can't play the conspiracy card.

I was not even directing the question to you - if you look above it was Muezzin who said "and the desecration of the graves?". I was clearly addressing him.

OK it is not an option to ask them - practically I agree, unless you go on a high risk operation to war-torn Somalia to hook up with them. However, because that is not an option right now it doesn't mean we HAVE TO use the current evidence presented to us because that in itself might be flawed. Possible - right?.

Just because it came from an Arab website does not mean its true!. What on earth criteria for truth is that!?!?!. People reading this forum must be laughing by now. Arabs are people just like anyone else - they eat, sleep, lie etc. In fact they are some of the biggest liars (note I said SOME of the biggest liars not that they are the worst liars...).

I agree completley with the poster Noorahmed who said we should hold our views until we have more evidence.

Fishman and Izyan - don't forget what the Qur'an says:-

"Ye who are conscious of God - If a fasiq comes with alarming news, make sure to verify their word, lest you afflict people out of your ignorance, and regret your action." Holy Qur'an, Surah 49:6).

You've admitted you have not got the ability to verify their (the media reporters) words yet earlier on you were afflicting these Somalians (see Quran quote above) as being evil-doers for destroying a church.

Look at the Okhlahoma bombings. The media churned out claims of it being done by Muslims. It turned out to be a home grown non-Muslim guy who did it. They later republished new claims.

Even if you don't agree with all or much of what this particular group in Somalia does in fighting etc. that doesn't mean they are automatically wrong in every single act that they do.

 

[Fishman]

Just because it came from an Arab website does not mean its true!. What on earth criteria for truth is that!?!?!. People reading this forum must be laughing by now. Arabs are people just like anyone else - they eat, sleep, lie etc. In fact they are some of the biggest liars (note I said SOME of the biggest liars not that they are the worst liars...).

I meant that nobody can repeat the usual whitewashing tactic that 'it was all made up by evil westeners' since it comes from an Arab website that is often anti-western. I am not saying that I think Arabs are more trustworthy myself.

I agree completley with the poster Noorahmed who said we should hold our views until we have more evidence.

We in person are never going to get that evidence. If we have to hear thingsw with our own ears and see things with our own eyes, then we might as well not believe anything anybody tells us! How do you know Antarctica exists?

Fishman and Izyan - don't forget what the Qur'an says:-

"Ye who are conscious of God - If a fasiq comes with alarming news, make sure to verify their word, lest you afflict people out of your ignorance, and regret your action." Holy Qur'an, Surah 49:6).

You've admitted you have not got the ability to verify their (the media reporters) words yet earlier on you were afflicting these Somalians (see Quran quote above) as being evil-doers for destroying a church.

1. Izyan is Christian.
2. Don't you think that the news reporters have tried to verify their news? They are news reporters, it is their job to verify alarming news for us and then tell us about it if it is true. Whilst they might just all be liars, I have no reason to believe that until somebody comes up with evidence against it.

Look at the Okhlahoma bombings. The media churned out claims of it being done by Muslims. It turned out to be a home grown non-Muslim guy who did it. They later republished new claims.

In this case though, Al-Sahaab has already admitted it, along with many residents.

Even if you don't agree with all or much of what this particular group in Somalia does in fighting etc. that doesn't mean they are automatically wrong in every single act that they do.

When did I say that?

 

[Amadeus85]

If I saw them (and they weren't trying to kill me) I would ask them why they did it. But since that is not an option, then we should us the evidence presented to us. And it was taken from an Arab website, so you can't play the conspiracy card.

Probably they did this because of lack of knowledge. With all due respect, that part of the world, suffering from neverending wars (I mean Somalia) isnt the perfect place to gain education (also the correct islamic one). They are poor, desperated, they havent probably left their country for all the life. The same goes with Afghanistan and Buddha statues.

 

[S1aveofA11ah]

I meant that nobody can repeat the usual whitewashing tactic that 'it was all made up by evil westeners' since it comes from an Arab website that is often anti-western. I am not saying that I think Arabs are more trustworthy myself.

We in person are never going to get that evidence. If we have to hear thingsw with our own ears and see things with our own eyes, then we might as well not believe anything anybody tells us! How do you know Antarctica exists?

That is completely a false statement - only Allah knows the past, present and future. A week from now and we might hear more clearer facts and figures. Hence my example of the Okhlahoma bombing - a much more horrofiying incident to make this point hit home.

1. Izyan is Christian.
2. Don't you think that the news reporters have tried to verify their news? They are news reporters, it is their job to verify alarming news for us and then tell us about it if it is true. Whilst they might just all be liars, I have no reason to believe that until somebody comes up with evidence against it.

2. Of course they probably have. The verse from the Quran I quoted didn't say the "the fasiq should verify his own evidence".

In this case though, Al-Sahaab has already admitted it, along with many residents.


When did I say that?

- I said:

Even if you don't agree with all or much of what this particular group in Somalia does in fighting etc. that doesn't mean they are automatically wrong in every single act that they do.

I never said you said they are "automatically wrong in every single act that they do" - read what I said above ...

........

 

[wth1257]

You're right there are ancient Budha statues in Afghani... oh right.

The Budha statues were destroyed by the Taliban. He was referring to the initial conquest.

 

[Trumble]

This is the same bunch responsible for getting a 13 year rape victim stoned to death for 'adultery'. I can't say I'm surprised.

 

[S1aveofA11ah]

Probably they did this because of lack of knowledge. With all due respect, that part of the world, suffering from neverending wars (I mean Somalia) isnt the perfect place to gain education (also the correct islamic one). They are poor, desperated, they havent probably left their country for all the life. The same goes with Afghanistan and Buddha statues.

I say - possibly they did this because of lack of knowledge - because I'm sticking to my arguement that more concrete, clear evidence is needed before making a judgment. "Innocent until proven guilty" is the Western legal stance not "innocent until the papers say so", so your "probably" is your opinion and my opinion about your opinon is that it is an unfair, hasty, and negative claim to say that these somalians ignorantly did this act (no refelction on you). If they were fighting a jihad then they should know at least some of the rules. Just like a Muslim who prays 5 times a day - it is EXTREMELY unlikey that he/she doesn't know about some/all of it rules e.g. to have abulution before praying, face the right direction, have the intention etc. Ask any Muslim you know if he or she has come across a Muslim who prays five times a day and is ignorant of the rules I alluded to.

Likewise these Somalians in this fighting scenario would very probably know of facts such as: do not kill women/children in the fighting, destroying cattle/trees and so on. At the same time I agree it is POSSIBLE they were ignorant vandals who did this for a laugh or for provocation of others or for a myriad of other callous reasons.

The US poking its nose into a Muslim majority area like Somalia (and plenty of other places like Iraq etc.) hasn't helped with regards to your comment of:

"that part of the world, suffering from neverending wars (I mean Somalia) isnt the perfect place to gain education (also the correct islamic one). They are poor, desperated, they havent probably left their country for all the life...".

 

[Izyan]

I say - possibly they did this because of lack of knowledge - because I'm sticking to my arguement that more concrete, clear evidence is needed before making a judgment. "Innocent until proven guilty" is the Western legal stance not "innocent until the papers say so", so your "probably" is your opinion and my opinion about your opinon is that it is an unfair, hasty, and negative claim to say that these somalians ignorantly did this act (no refelction on you). If they were fighting a jihad then they should know at least some of the rules. Just like a Muslim who prays 5 times a day - it is EXTREMELY unlikey that he/she doesn't know about some/all of it rules e.g. to have abulution before praying, face the right direction, have the intention etc. Ask any Muslim you know if he or she has come across a Muslim who prays five times a day and is ignorant of the rules I alluded to.

Likewise these Somalians in this fighting scenario would very probably know of facts such as: do not kill women/children in the fighting, destroying cattle/trees and so on. At the same time I agree it is POSSIBLE they were ignorant vandals who did this for a laugh or for provocation of others or for a myriad of other callous reasons.

The US poking its nose into a Muslim majority area like Somalia (and plenty of other places like Iraq etc.) hasn't helped with regards to your comment of:

"that part of the world, suffering from neverending wars (I mean Somalia) isnt the perfect place to gain education (also the correct islamic one). They are poor, desperated, they havent probably left their country for all the life...".

How do you know the US is poking it's nose in Somalia's affairs? Have you witnessed this with your own eyes? 70 excuses brother.

 

[Izyan]

Look at the Okhlahoma bombings. The media churned out claims of it being done by Muslims. It turned out to be a home grown non-Muslim guy who did it. They later republished new claims.

I remember that bombing quite clearly and don't remember any muslims being blamed. They went after the militia groups pretty quickly. They thought it was retaliation for Ruby Ridge.