What is Gaza?

[Thinker]

Why are there so many children in Gaza. Every time I see a TV clip of Gaza the streets are full of young boys. I found a source on the net suggesting that the average family (number of children) size in every European country and the US is between 2 and 3; in Gaza it’s 6! I found the below statistic; the results below of a Gallup pole.

Palestinians: Preferred Number of Children According to Region
.......................West Bank...........East Jerusalem...................Gaza Strip
5 or more ..............43%...................28%...............................54%
3 to 4...................46%...................56%...............................35%
1 to 2...................10%...................14%...............................10%
None.....................1%......................2%................................1%

Why do people living in the worst and most dangerous conditions want to have the most children?

 

[aamirsaab]

So Israel broke the ceasefire because they didnt initiate negotiations with Hamas ? I dont quite follow that logic. Why doesnt it apply both ways? By for starters, I dont know, Hamas accepting Israels right to exist?

That's not what I said. If Israel wants to take the moral high ground on this matter (which it likes to keep claiming in various interviews), then negotiations should have taken place.

There is no excuse to land stealing however Israel withdrew from Gaza. Giving that land back apparently ammounted to nothing and only thing that caused was increased rocket fire. I just dont find your claim believable.

I'm talking about all of the land Israeli government stole. Click me and find out how much land palestininans have left. Hamas exist to prevent any more land going to Israel.

I find this bit inconsistent: Israel is chastised for violence and the lack of negotiations but the only road block to Palestinian existence on map arent those who negotiate but the ones that keep the war going by purposefully targetting civilians and provoking Israel to attack them.

A negotiation can only take place when both sides participate. If fatah is prepared to negotiate then why is not Israel?

...The only thing they have really been blocking all these years is public world support for palestinians in any meaningful way.

I will agree that Hamas hasn't done a good job at gaining public global support (though, I don't think they themselves care about that) but, Israel shares a lot of the blame too (i.e. when it passes the blame onto Hamas in every interview).

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Approxiamatly 60,000 to 80,000.

Sources:

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/arabunity/2008/02/2008525185737842919.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza

In 1997 the population was Population (1997 estimate) 353,632. Which is acknowledged to be 6 times it's 1948 population, in the same source below
Source: http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761573091/gaza.html

So it would seem it's not entirely Israel's fault Gaza has turned into an overpopulated prison.

 

[Woodrow]

So it would seem it's not entirely Israel's fault Gaza has turned into an overpopulated prison.

Except if you understand that most of Gaza is refugees. the nearly 1,000,000 increase from 1997 to today was by people that went in as refugees after being forced from their homes. they currently live in refugee camps. Gaza is a prison.

From the UN itself:

The Gaza Strip is unique amongst UNRWA's five fields of operations as the majority of its population is refugees and over half of the refugees live in eight camps. Most of the people who fled to the Gaza Strip as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli war were from Jaffa, towns and villages south of Jaffa, and from the Beersheva area in the Negev. In all, some 200,000 refugees came to Gaza, whose original inhabitants numbered only 80,000. Such an influx severely burdened this narrow strip of land; an area of only 360 square kilometers. Over three-quarters of the current estimated population of some 1.4 million are registered refugees; representing 22.42 per cent of all UNRWA registered Palestine refugees.

Source: http://www.un.org/unrwa/refugees/gaza.html

A refuge is not a person who leaves his homeland by choice.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Except if you understand that most of Gaza is refugees. the nearly 1,000,000 increase from 1997 to today was by people that went in as refugees after being forced from their homes. they currently live in refugee camps. Gaza is a prison.

From the UN itself:



Source: http://www.un.org/unrwa/refugees/gaza.html

A refuge is not a person who leaves his homeland by choice.

Are you sure about that, I'm aware that roughly 700 thousand people left their homes during the 1948 war, but I had no idea 1 million fled to Gaza in 1997. Where did they live before? In Israel? Who or what made them flee their houses?

 

[Suomipoika]

That's not what I said. If Israel wants to take the moral high ground on this matter (which it likes to keep claiming in various interviews), then negotiations should have taken place.

Hamas (or friends) breaks ceasefire but Israel doesnt have moral high ground because both sides arent particularly intrested in talking with eachother?

I'm talking about all of the land Israeli government stole. Click me and find out how much land palestininans have left. Hamas exist to prevent any more land going to Israel.

Palestinians arent the only ones who have lost land, most other people and nations, like Finland, have accepted it and moved on. I cant say how happy I am that we didnt have a road block like Hamas who kept firing and provoking Stalin. Trying to take Karelia back today would be extremely wrong (not to mention suicidal). Look at us today, and look at palestinians today, both of us lost land in the 40's.

Not to mention palestinians and Israels arab neighbours arent exactly blameless little angels with how it all turned out. What was the point of attacking Israel repeatedly several times. Sorry for Godwin but its almost like Germany claiming Kaliningrad/Königsberg back.

A negotiation can only take place when both sides participate. If fatah is prepared to negotiate then why is not Israel?

I will agree that Hamas hasn't done a good job at gaining public global support (though, I don't think they themselves care about that) but, Israel shares a lot of the blame too (i.e. when it passes the blame onto Hamas in every interview).

Israel has been ready to begin negotiations with Fatah. They even released palestinian prisoners as a good sign gesture. There is probably something to be learned there when Israel negotiates with those who are ready to recognice them and dont constantly fire rockets at them. Go figure.

Click me to see the evil Zionist Empire to release prisoners due to heroism of Hamas.

But nice way of evading my point. Why Hamas is the road block that saves Palestine and not Fatah? Why the one who resorts to violence instead of the one who is ready to negotiate? Violence, which when used by Israel you condemn very strongly, but not when used by Hamas, then its a heroic road block defense.

 

[جوري]

Why do people living in the worst and most dangerous conditions want to have the most children?

Isn't it obvious?

 

[Woodrow]

Are you sure about that, I'm aware that roughly 700 thousand people left their homes during the 1948 war, but I had no idea 1 million fled to Gaza in 1997. Where did they live before? In Israel? Who or what made them flee their houses?

the 1,000,000 did not come in just 1997 I stated from 1997 to the present.

From the UN again:

View the entire slide show. Although it only covers the first 45 years.

http://www.un.org/unrwa/photos/long-journey/01.html


The refugees were residents of the land that became known as Israel. they left their homes and much of their belongings as they they lost their homes to the influx of settlers into Israel.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

the 1,000,000 did not come in just 1997 I stated from 1997 to the present.

From the UN again:

View the entire slide show. Although it only covers the first 45 years.

http://www.un.org/unrwa/photos/long-journey/01.html


The refugees were residents of the land that became known as Israel. they left their homes and much of their belongings as they they lost their homes to the influx of settlers into Israel.

1 million in 10 years? Why did they leave? where did they leave from? Why is it that the liberal media isn't blaming Israel for this?

 

[Woodrow]

1 million in 10 years? Why did they leave? where did they leave from? Why is it that the liberal media isn't blaming Israel for this?

Very good question. Also why hasn't the UN taken action against Israel? Why did this past three weeks get handled by an Israeli military campaign, when most of Gaza's population is in UN refugee camps? Shouldn't this have been a UN campaign rather then an Israeli one?

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Very good question. Also why hasn't the UN taken action against Israel? Why did this past three weeks get handled by an Israeli military campaign, when most of Gaza's population is in UN refugee camps? Shouldn't this have been a UN campaign rather then an Israeli one?

I don't think the UN would be willing to dismantle a terrorist network.
All they do is give charity and throw in an extra rape or two.
Anyway, don't change the subject, do you have evidence that 1 million have been expelled to Gaza from Israel in the past 10 years.

 

[Trumble]

the 1,000,000 did not come in just 1997 I stated from 1997 to the present.

Sorry, Woodrow, but I can't find anything to support this claim, or anything remotely like it, either. Do you have a source?

Most of the population are 'official' refugees, yes... but that's because their parents and grandparents were, not because of some vast influx into Gaza from Israel over the last decade or so. That just never happened.

 

[Woodrow]

I don't think the UN would be willing to dismantle a terrorist network.
All they do is give charity and throw in an extra rape or two.
Anyway, don't change the subject, do you have evidence that 1 million have been expelled to Gaza from Israel in the past 10 years.

I believe the census reports found in the earlier links I posted show a 1,000,000 change in population between 1997 and 2008.

If not here are some more links.

OOOps I goofed. I apologize. I read the census date as 1996, When I just relooked it I should have said 1969, although the most recent census of the area was 1967

Gaza Population 1967
The 1967 census showed that 87,793 inhabitants lived in the city proper, while 30,479 lived in the refugee camp within municipal boundaries.

Source:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0007_0_07101.html

Since the People are Palestinian, it should be safe to assume they came from what was formerly Palestine. I doubt if many people would willingly give up their homes to go live in a refugee camp.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

I believe the census reports found in the earlier links I posted show a 1,000,000 change in population between 1997 and 2008.

If not here are some more links.

OOOps I goofed. I apologize. I read the census date as 1996, When I just relooked it I should have said 1969, although the most recent census of the area was 1967

Gaza Population 1967
The 1967 census showed that 87,793 inhabitants lived in the city proper, while 30,479 lived in the refugee camp within municipal boundaries.

Source:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0007_0_07101.html

Since the People are Palestinian, it should be safe to assume they came from what was formerly Palestine. I doubt if many people would willingly give up their homes to go live in a refugee camp.

What if they just had a lot of children?
I don't think a great many Palestinians were left in Israel after the naqba.

 

[Woodrow]

What if they just had a lot of children?
I don't think a great many Palestinians were left in Israel after the naqba.

Let me the Naqba occurred on May 14, 1948 and yes a large number of Palestinian Muslims entered Gaza as refugees on that date.

However, the CIA World Fact Book, gives the number of refugees in Palestine as being over 1, million and shows the country of origin as Palestine:


refugees (country of origin): 1.017 million (Palestinian Refugees (UNRWA)) (2007)

Source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gz.html


It is difficult to find sources that specifically tell how many of those listed as refugees are actual refugees, or refugees born of refugees that had come to gaza. I believe it would be safe to say all refugees over the age of 60 were not born in Gaza. And all under 14 were born in Gaza. the 15-64 age group is going to be hard to calculate. But I believe a fair assumption would be 50/50

0-14 years: 44.7% (male 343,988/female 325,856)
15-64 years: 52.7% (male 403,855/female 386,681)
65 years and over: 2.7% (male 16,196/female 23,626) (2008 est.)

Source:https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gz.html
So after all that it seems that about 40 percent the refugees were immigrants (from what is now Israel) and 60 percent born in Gaza

does it really make a difference if the refugees were born in Gaza or are the children of Refugees that were exiled from what was Palestine?

 

[aamirsaab]

Hamas (or friends) breaks ceasefire but Israel doesnt have moral high ground because both sides arent particularly intrested in talking with eachother?

Israel broke the ceasefire.
Israel keeps claiming it has the high ground but persisted on bombing gaza.

Not to mention palestinians and Israels arab neighbours arent exactly blameless little angels with how it all turned out.

I'm not claiming they are. What I am saying is that if Israel wants to play the moral highground card (which it does in every interview), bombing civilians and blaming hamas isn't going to work.

What was the point of attacking Israel repeatedly several times. Sorry for Godwin but its almost like Germany claiming Kaliningrad/Königsberg back.

Ask Hamas not me. I already told you, I don't support hamas or their methodology. Only what they fight for.

Israel has been ready to begin negotiations with Fatah. They even released palestinian prisoners as a good sign gesture. There is probably something to be learned there when Israel negotiates with those who are ready to recognice them and dont constantly fire rockets at them. Go figure.

Again, I don't support hamas nor their methodology.

Click me to see the evil Zionist Empire to release prisoners due to heroism of Hamas.

Ok that's cool. But again, you keep thinking I'm siding with hamas - I'm not!

But nice way of evading my point. Why Hamas is the road block that saves Palestine and not Fatah? Why the one who resorts to violence instead of the one who is ready to negotiate?

Your argument doesn't make sense: if someone is negotiating with you, why would that be a road block compared to someone who wants to bomb you?

Violence, which when used by Israel you condemn very strongly, but not when used by Hamas, then its a heroic road block defense.

Grrr you just don't get it. Just because I am anti Israeli doesn't make me pro hamas (especially when I outright condemn them!) - I condemn all violence from both parties. I'm slightly heavier on Israel since they keep claiming moral highground (which is blatantly untrue!)

But I'm open minded enough to realise that whilst hamas exists, so does palestinian land. If Hamas goes, so does palestine - Fatah, unfortunately, isn't going to save palestine by itself - not while Israel continues to get away with stealing land. I'm not proud of this by any means and I truly wish there was another way for palestine to remain palestine but ultimately, if Israel removes Hamas (the only real resistance from palestine hence I called it a road block) then Israel will remove palestine from the map. Fatah cannot stop an invasion by Israel, Hamas can.

 

[sister herb]

During two days of ceasefire zionists have already killed two Gazans and also killed two children killed by expolosives of them.

"IOF gunboats shell Gaza coasts"

What kind of ceasefire this is? At the same time zionists say they want to controll all aid to Gaza? If Gaza is not occupied area at all, what it belongs to zionists at all??????

I shouldn't!

 

[Suomipoika]

Israel broke the ceasefire.
Israel keeps claiming it has the high ground but persisted on bombing gaza.

Something I dont understand, why dont rocket/mortar attacks in july, august, september or october constitute as breaking the ceasefire?

Your argument doesn't make sense: if someone is negotiating with you, why would that be a road block compared to someone who wants to bomb you?

Grrr you just don't get it. Just because I am anti Israeli doesn't make me pro hamas (especially when I outright condemn them!) - I condemn all violence from both parties. I'm slightly heavier on Israel since they keep claiming moral highground (which is blatantly untrue!)

But I'm open minded enough to realise that whilst hamas exists, so does palestinian land. If Hamas goes, so does palestine - Fatah, unfortunately, isn't going to save palestine by itself - not while Israel continues to get away with stealing land. I'm not proud of this by any means and I truly wish there was another way for palestine to remain palestine but ultimately, if Israel removes Hamas (the only real resistance from palestine hence I called it a road block) then Israel will remove palestine from the map. Fatah cannot stop an invasion by Israel, Hamas can.

My arguement is this inconsistency that you seem to have in your position. You claim to condemn violence but on the same breath you praise a group that offers nothing but violence as the sole and only saviour of Palestine. Fatah with its long history of bitter fighting with Israel suddenly isnt going to save palestine, why? Because they try to negotiate and have resigned from/put on hold actions that you supposedly condemn? Why isnt Israeli recognition of Palestine and two-state solution the clue that keeps Palestine on map?

 

[sister herb]

Something I dont understand, why dont rocket/mortar attacks in july, august, september or october constitute as breaking the ceasefire?

This you didn´t understood; zionists declared truce with Hamas, but those missiles/rockets didn´t come from Hamas but they own traitors whose made work to zionists forces.

Can you even prove they would were Qassams at all?



At the same time zionists whose were wrote agreement about truce with Hamas as opening borders ate they words and didn´t keep them.

It is same now; 4 Gazans have been killed by zionists during ceasefire; two of them children, others civilians. What kind of ceasefire is this if only Palestinians have to follow it, not occupiers?


:raging:

 

[Woodrow]

Something I dont understand, why dont rocket/mortar attacks in july, august, september or october constitute as breaking the ceasefire?



My arguement is this inconsistency that you seem to have in your position. You claim to condemn violence but on the same breath you praise a group that offers nothing but violence as the sole and only saviour of Palestine. Fatah with its long history of bitter fighting with Israel suddenly isnt going to save palestine, why? Because they try to negotiate and have resigned from/put on hold actions that you supposedly condemn? Why isnt Israeli recognition of Palestine and two-state solution the clue that keeps Palestine on map?

Perhaps you can not see that supporting an idea and supporting a group fighting for the idea are not the same. I, like Bro. aamirsaab, support what Hamas is fighting for, but I do not support Hamas or the methods they use.

Likewise I supported Bush's idea of freeing Iraq from Saddam, but I do not support Bush nor the method he used.