Vote no to ban Hijab in Austrailia

[Azy]

Even if a country was to ban Hijab, Would a true muslim women abandon the law of Allah SWT because some goverment body tells her so.

They wouldn't have to abandon it, just not enter any shops while wearing it.

A women is liberating herself and protecting herself from harm keeping to the safety and recommendation of her creator, I'm sure she will not change that for anybody.

I've heard this before, and I'm sure you've heard what I'm about to say but I thought I'd repeat it anyway because I'm hoping one day I'll get an answer I understand.

If a woman is liberating herself by wearing hijab/niqab then why is it that the vast majority of muslim women where I live choose not to do so? They're free to do pretty much whatever they like, who in their right mind wouldn't choose liberation?

I suppose what I'm after is an Islamic definition of 'liberating'.

 

[Civilsed]

They wouldn't have to abandon it, just not enter any shops while wearing it.
I've heard this before, and I'm sure you've heard what I'm about to say but I thought I'd repeat it anyway because I'm hoping one day I'll get an answer I understand.

If a woman is liberating herself by wearing hijab/niqab then why is it that the vast majority of muslim women where I live choose not to do so? They're free to do pretty much whatever they like, who in their right mind wouldn't choose liberation?

I suppose what I'm after is an Islamic definition of 'liberating'.

Can I ask what is the Non Muslim definition if "Liberating" ?

To you question about muslim women where you live, Even though in the west women find it liberating to walk around with most of their body parts on show the majority will not. Likewise the same where you live.

I guess people are "Different"

Some feel the pressure to look like the latest popstars, Size zero, etc... to fit in, get promoted, go places, become famous, BEING JUDGED,etc.... Hardly "Liberating" :muddlehea

Must be quite liberating NOT feeling these pressure

 

[Azy]

Can I ask what is the Non Muslim definition if "Liberating" ?

In my dictionary:
"making you feel free and able to behave as you like".

Some feel the pressure to look like the latest popstars, Size zero, etc... to fit in, get promoted, go places, become famous, BEING JUDGED,etc.... Hardly "Liberating" :muddlehea

Must be quite liberating NOT feeling these pressure

I don't understand why wearing a different article of clothing is required to make that happen.
Surely if you choose to wear the hijab/niqab so that you can mentally remove those pressures, then you could choose to do that anyway without changing your dress. The head covering isn't actually making all those things disappear, you simply have a new perspective of them.

 

[Civilsed]

imsad

In my dictionary:
"making you feel free and able to behave as you like".

So banning the Hijab or even the Niqab goes agaist your definition as well ?

I don't understand why wearing a different article of clothing is required to make that happen.
Surely if you choose to wear the hijab/niqab so that you can mentally remove those pressures, then you could choose to do that anyway without changing your dress. The head covering isn't actually making all those things disappear, you simply have a new perspective of them

]

No, Wearing an article of clothing should not make a difference, But you cannot deny the "Dress for Success" statement and the pressure on young girls and boy to look a certain way. The Magazines, Films, Adverts are full of it and you know what sells imsad

Although the Hijab is for modesty it does help remove these pressures for girl to look and act a certain way.

 

[saba muslimah]

Voted..!

 

[Whatsthepoint]

The problem with niqab is that it poses several safety concerns and the eventual ban in certain places should not be seen as a human rights infringment.

 

[KiWi]

Thanks for voting, here are the results so far:

Yes 11% (6731 votes)
No 88% (51758 votes)

Total of 58489 votes

interesting
did they say y they wanted to ban this?

 

[Civilsed]

The problem with niqab is that it poses several safety concerns and the eventual ban in certain places should not be seen as a human rights infringment.

Thanks for the concern, but our sisters have managed for over 1400 years, so i think they can walk around some shop

 

[coddles76]

If a woman is liberating herself by wearing hijab/niqab then why is it that the vast majority of muslim women where I live choose not to do so? They're free to do pretty much whatever they like, who in their right mind wouldn't choose liberation?
I suppose what I'm after is an Islamic definition of 'liberating'.

I can't speak for every women, so I'm afraid I can't answer for the choices of the women where YOU live but I can answer this, A Women who covers herself liberates herself from the desires of man and will be judged by her intelligence not the flesh she posseses.

 

[Azy]

"making you feel free and able to behave as you like".
So banning the Hijab or even the Niqab goes agaist your definition as well ?

Yes, but we're not really talking about whether banning it is liberating. Often laws are intended to do exactly the opposite, curb liberties which would result in harm to others.

No, Wearing an article of clothing should not make a difference, But you cannot deny the "Dress for Success" statement and the pressure on young girls and boy to look a certain way. The Magazines, Films, Adverts are full of it and you know what sells.
Although the Hijab is for modesty it does help remove these pressures for girl to look and act a certain way.

Again, the decision to heed those pressures lies with the person. Muslimahs in western society can often feel more self-conscious because they are dressed differently to their peers. For some of them wearing Islamic dress makes them feel better, for some it doesn't.
There are also pressures on men to look a certain way, but I don't pay any attention to them.

Thanks for the concern, but our sisters have managed for over 1400 years, so i think they can walk around some shop

The ban isn't for their benefit/safety, it's for the shops'. If other head coverings of a similar nature were banned why should they be exempt?

I can't speak for every women, so I'm afraid I can't answer for the choices of the women where YOU live but I can answer this, A Women who covers herself liberates herself from the desires of man and will be judged by her intelligence not the flesh she posseses.

I've heard this argument before and it has some interesting implications. Who is really at fault if a man looks at a woman with desire and then makes a judgement about her based on her appearance?

As an analogy, would you be happy to introduce a law requiring all black people to cover themselves in case whites judged them by their skin colour rather than their intelligence?

 

[coddles76]

Who is really at fault if a man looks at a woman with desire and then makes a judgement about her based on her appearance?

As an analogy, would you be happy to introduce a law requiring all black people to cover themselves in case whites judged them by their skin colour rather than their intelligence?

I can understand why you find it hard to absorb cause it seems that you are not interpreting the context of the statements I made but I will try to make it as clear as possible. Sorry if I fail in the process but I hope you will also try to understand my point.

Firstly there are responsiblities on both sides of the sexual genders to protect themselves from sexual sins and while on the Male side its useful to lower there gaze, the women wil liberate herself from the deviant man who decides not to lower his gaze. The process of covering is for protection and to fulfill the requests of her creator.
Secondly if you go over my comments you will realise that no where did I mention colour of the flesh so the law applies to all regardless of the colour of the skin.

 

[Bint-Al-Islam]

Voted!!!

 

[Azy]

I can understand why you find it hard to absorb...
Firstly there are responsiblities on both sides of the sexual genders to protect themselves from sexual sins and while on the Male side its useful to lower there gaze, the women wil liberate herself from the deviant man who decides not to lower his gaze. The process of covering is for protection and to fulfill the requests of her creator.

It's not hard to absorb, it just seems to place the blame with the wrong people.

Again, if you judge a woman based on her body rather than her intelligence is that her fault or yours? If you look at a woman lustfully is that her fault or yours?

Secondly if you go over my comments you will realise that no where did I mention colour of the flesh so the law applies to all regardless of the colour of the skin.

Who said you did?

 

[coddles76]

It's not hard to absorb, it just seems to place the blame with the wrong people.

Again, if you judge a woman based on her body rather than her intelligence is that her fault or yours? If you look at a woman lustfully is that her fault or yours?

Once again, I'll try to clarify because it doesn't seem to be sinking in.
You cannot object to the fact that the male creation has been created with desire (More then the female). Both the male and female play a role in PROTECTING themself from this sexual desire. Its not the judging that is the concern. There is no blame game here, it's a matter for both sides to have preventative measures since prevention is better than the cure. I hope I've been a little more clear.

Who said you did?

I was just clarifying your comment about colour, as the issue is not related to the colour of the flesh.

Thank you

 

[Azy]

Both the male and female play a role in PROTECTING themself from this sexual desire.

Why exactly does a woman need protecting from a man's sexual desire?

I was just clarifying your comment about colour, as the issue is not related to the colour of the flesh.

I'd like it if you went back and read the skin colour analogy and tell me what you'd do in the situation I suggested.

 

[Civilsed]

Why exactly does a woman need protecting from a man's sexual desire?

^ Are you serious ??

Women is Islam protect their modesty and do not feel the the to flaunt thier beauty and parts. Quite simple

If a sister decided to adhere to the islamic ruling on this topic then that is her liberty... surely.

A good example is the one Zakir Naik uses about twins one wears a mini skirt and vest and the other observes the Islamic dress, Which one do you this will be harrassed by a group of guys?

 

[coddles76]

Why exactly does a woman need protecting from a man's sexual desire?

Oh thats right I forgot, the women has all the rights. There is ZERO responsability on the part of the women to protect herself. So if the women decides to shade her beauty and save it for only her husbands eyes, that is wrong, she shouldn't need to, its the man that shouldn't look and he's solely at fault for any sins. Sorry for my lack of understanding, I apologise. You win, your much smarter than me.

I'd like it if you went back and read the skin colour analogy and tell me what you'd do in the situation I suggested.

I'd like it if you went back and understood that the colour of the skin is of no issue here. I will not discuss a topic that is irrelevant

 

[Azy]

^ Are you serious ??

Absolutely.

A good example is the one Zakir Naik uses about twins one wears a mini skirt and vest and the other observes the Islamic dress, Which one do you this will be harrassed by a group of guys?

Now, rather than desire, you're talking about actual harassment. Which one will be harassed depends upon the guys.

This whole argument revolves around the assumption that, as a deterrent to harassment, covering up actually works.
An excerpt from "The Islamist" by Mohammed Mahbub Hussain, about his time in Saudi Arabia.

Faye was not immodest in her dress. Out of respect for local custom, she wore the long black abaya and covered her hair in a black scarf. In all the years I had known my wife, never had I seen her appear so dull. Yet on two occasions she was accosted by passing Saudi youths from their cars. On another occasion a man pulled up beside our car and offered her his phone number.

In supermarkets I only had to be away from Faye for five minutes and Saudi men would hiss or whisper obscenities as they walked past. When Faye discussed her experiences with local women at the British Council they said: “Welcome to Saudi Arabia.”
...
I discussed my troubles with other British Muslims working at the British Council. Jamal, who was of a W@hh@bi bent, fully agreed with what I observed and went further. “Ed, my wife wore the veil back home in Britain and even there she did not get as many stares as she gets when we go out here.” Another British Muslim had gone as far as tinting his car windows black in order to prevent young Saudis gaping at his wife.
...
Why had the veil and segregation not prevented such behaviour? My Saudi acquaintances, many of them university graduates, argued strongly that, on the contrary, it was the veil and other social norms that were responsible for such widespread sexual frustration among Saudi youth.

Egypt even launched a campaign to try and combat sexual harassment. The article quotes a survey stating 70% of harassed women were veiled.

Oh thats right I forgot, the women has all the rights. There is ZERO responsability on the part of the women to protect herself. So if the women decides to shade her beauty and save it for only her husbands eyes, that is wrong, she shouldn't need to, its the man that shouldn't look and he's solely at fault for any sins.

A person should take responsibility for their own actions. If you harass a woman out of lust that's your fault, if you vandalise a car out of jealousy that's your fault, if you steal something because it wasn't nailed down that's your fault. Don't blame the victim.
Everyone has a right not to be harassed, not just women.

I'd like it if you went back and understood that the colour of the skin is of no issue here. I will not discuss a topic that is irrelevant

Well it was an analogy so it's subject isn't really the point. You wouldn't ever ask a black man to cover up because he was at risk of harassment by white men so why do it to women?

 

[Civilsed]

Again

^ Are you serious ??

Women is Islam protect their modesty and do not feel the the to flaunt thier beauty and parts. Quite simple

If a sister decided to adhere to the islamic ruling on this topic then that is her liberty... surely.

 

[Azy]

Women is Islam protect their modesty and do not feel the the to flaunt thier beauty and parts. Quite simple

If a sister decided to adhere to the islamic ruling on this topic then that is her liberty... surely.

I'm not sure what your point is... of course it's her liberty to obey Islamic rulings but if she didn't she wouldn't be a muslim and there'd be no point discussing it. Women must dress modestly so they dress modestly.

My questions were related to why people believe that covering up is liberating and whether it actually has that effect or not.