Harmony between the Bible and the Qur'an

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Greetings Grenville,

I don't understand the difference between what you call Christianity and "Christian religious traditions".

Dear Mohammed:

Christianity can be defined as the teachings that Christians should believe. These Christian teachings are stated in or supported by what is written in the Bible.

In order to pass on the Christian teachings to the next generation, or to explain it better to the current generation, Christian traditions are developed.

Many of these traditions are supported by what is in the Bible; however, some of them are not. For example, some rituals of dress and order currently practiced are not stated in the Bible; however, they are useful for clarifying Biblical teachings.

The risk of division arises when religious traditions are developed which conflict with what is written in the Bible. These risks are realized when these traditions are challenged, or are used to exclude others.

Regards,
Grenville
 
Nothing wrong with Calvin College's www.ccel.org site. But are you insinuating that www.earlychristianwritings.com is NOT an authoritative site?

Dear Grace Seeker:

Who is verifying what is posted? What organization is authorizing the posts? From where do you derive confidence that what is posted is accurate? If you are satisfied with your answers, then use the information with confidence.

Regards,
Grenville
 
Grenville, your response is a statement, but it is not an answer to my question: "Are you insinuating that www.earlychristianwritings.com is not an authoritative site?"

It's a Yes or No question. You can explain you answer if you so desire. But, please, first, do me the courtesy of actually answering the question.
 
Greetings Grenville,

Thank you for that clarification. I suppose you make that distinction as you are not in agreement with some of the developments that occurred later (eg. the concept of trinity), which others regard as being Christian teaching. However, there still seems to be a picture of doctrinal development when we look at the Bible and how it has been repeatedly revised, and perhaps a study of historical Christian councils and debates related to this may also provide further evidence.

Regarding "Islamic religious tradition" - I'm not sure you have an accurate picture of it. As I mentioned earlier, explaining Islamic teachings is always done in line with the understanding of the first (and best) generations.

Thanks for your input,

Peace.
 
However, there still seems to be a picture of doctrinal development when we look at the Bible and how it has been repeatedly revised, and perhaps a study of historical Christian councils and debates related to this may also provide further evidence.

Regarding "Islamic religious tradition" - I'm not sure you have an accurate picture of it. As I mentioned earlier, explaining Islamic teachings is always done in line with the understanding of the first (and best) generations.

Thanks for your input,

Peace.

Dear Mohammed:

Christian religious traditions changed in different locations depending on who had the resources or influence to violently enforce their particular interpretations. I have not examined any evidence that shows that the Bible was revised. However, people’s interpretations of what the Bible states were revised.

Regarding Islamic religious tradition, let me refer you to the article “The Audacity of Hope” which explains the principal issues that led to Islamic religious tradition making critical unverified assumptions.

Regards,
Grenville
 
Grenville, your response is a statement, but it is not an answer to my question: "Are you insinuating that www.earlychristianwritings.com is not an authoritative site?"

It's a Yes or No question. You can explain you answer if you so desire. But, please, first, do me the courtesy of actually answering the question.

Hi Grace Seeker:

I have not read many of the documents on the site. However, given that the version that he was quoting from and referring to was a corrupted text, then I would be careful with documents from that site. That is all that I can say at this time.

Regards,
Grenville
 
Hi Grace Seeker:

I have not read many of the documents on the site. However, given that the version that he was quoting from and referring to was a corrupted text, then I would be careful with documents from that site. That is all that I can say at this time.

Regards,
Grenville

Thank-you. That's all that I was asking. I appreciate you taking the time to give me a straight answer.
 
"Follower

I'm afraid you missed the point ..

The Title (מָשִׁיחַ,) Mašíaḥ (Hebrew) , Masīḥ (Arabic)

has the same meaning for Jews and Christians and Muslims (The anointed one)

the difference is of the function of the one who have such title."


No, I understand it is in the function of the person that we hold a different understanding. To Christians and Jews it is the deliverer. The Jews believe it to mean a deliverance here on earth. Christians believe it to mean for the Kingdom of GOD.

I guess as the One that comes back Muslims believe Jesus to be the deliverer here on earth, like the Jews.

Rats! I am going to go off topic again- Where do I ask these questions that pop into my head?

Does it say to go to the hadith or tasfir if you don't understand something that is written in the Quran? Please list the verse. Thanks.
 
I went back to my notes and I may have in fact linked to the wrong one.

My understanding of the Early Christian Writings site is that it is a collection site of translations from various people. They are linked to:
http://www.ccel.org/


Grenville - please read this one and see if it is correct. Thanks.

Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.iv.ii.html

“For whosoever does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, is antichrist;”
.....
Let us then be imitators of His patience; and if we suffer for His name’s sake, let us glorify Him..
..................................
But may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ Himself, who is the Son of God, and our everlasting High Priest, build you up in faith and truth, and in all meekness, gentleness, patience, long-suffering, forbearance, and purity;





Thank you Grenville for catching that mis-information- I just double checked your link.
 
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Imam said:
I will show how strong the traditional proof text which suggests other things Jesus peace be upon him will do in a supposed second coming..

The issue of the second coming of Jesus in Islam belongs to the category of Aqida (creed) and Any supposed Aqidah requires in Islam certain knowledge and such certain knowledge could be safely achieved through either a clear Quranic support or a hadith mutawatir ( reported by a significant number of narrators at each level in the chain of narration, thus reaching the succeeding generation through multiple chains of narration leading back to its source.) .


Does the supposed Aqida of second coming comply perfectly with the 2 conditions previously mentioned?


What about the Quran?


The first supposed proof text is:


Holy Quran 4:156-159 "That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so (it-he?) was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise.
And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in ( it-him?)Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness Against them."


The argument is that according to the verse ,Jesus will appear just before the Final Day, none of the Jews and Christians But must believe in HIM before he die.

the pronouns between brackets if to be (he&him) there would be problems
the first verse( but so (it-he?) was made to appear to them)

I have explained before and in more than occasion why the choice of (he) instead of (it) would be problematic (not really our issue now though related)

In the second verse in the same context , If we choose (him) instead of (it) would create another problem.

And there is none of the people of the book But must believe in him (Jesus ) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness Against them."


the using of the pronuon that way would suggest the meaning that he will be a witness Against the people of the book who believed in him .!!


what if we use (IT)?

There is not one among the people of the Book who will not believe in it before his(the christian or the Jew) death; And on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness Against them."



When the word "bihi" in the phrase layu'minanna bihi is translated as in it, we find that the verse is referring to an incident and not a person. The incident is already mentioned in the verse 4:157 that the Jews neither killed him nor crucified him. But it was appeard to them so .


The second supposed proof text is:


‏43:61 وانه لعلم للساعة فلا تمترن بها واتبعون هذا صراط مستقيم


[43:57] When the son of Mary was cited as an example, your people disregarded it.
[43:58] They said, "Is it better to worship our gods, or to worship him?" They said this only to argue with you. Indeed, they are people who have joined the opposition.[43:59] He was no more than a servant whom we blessed, and we sent him as an example for the Children of Israel.[43:60] If we willed, we could have made you angels who colonize and reproduce on earth.
*[43:61] But, verily, (It,he?) is a (knowledge ,sign?) of the Hour. So entertain no doubt about it, but follow me. This is the right path.. You shall follow Me; this is the right path.[43:62] Let not the devil repel you; he is your most ardent enemy.


If the meaning Jesus is a sign of the hour than , the best can be inferred that Jesus mission is a sign of the approach of the day of judgment.... nothing at all could be inferred from the verse more than that....

let's even make it simpler by guessing another word :

But, verily, he (Mohamed ,peace be upon him) is a sign of the Hour. So entertain no doubt about it, but follow me. This is the right path

Is there anyone who would argue,if the verse like that, that the verse mentions a supposed second coming of Mohamed peace be upon him !?

is there another rendering?


Shakir:
[043:061] And most surely it is(The Quran) a knowledge of the hour, therefore have no doubt about it and follow me: this is the right path.

that rendering is supported by quotes from some Sahabas in the classic commentaries

eg;
تفسير البغوي

قال الحسن وقتادة وسعيد بن جبير : يريد القرآن
.: " وإنه " يعني وإن القرآن لعلم للساعة يعلمكم قيامها ، ويخبركم بأحوالها وأهوالها

حدثنا ابن عبد الأعلى , قال : ثنا ابن ثور , عن معمر , عن قتادة قال : كان ناس يقولون : القرآن علم للساعة.
Tafsser Albagawy:

Imam Alhasan said and the group,Ibn thawr,Moamar,Qatada said: (most surely it is) means the Quran is a knowledge of the hour to inform you of its approach and its reality and the way it will be.


To be concluded in the next post inshallah
 
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I went back to my notes and I may have in fact linked to the wrong one.

My understanding of the Early Christian Writings site is that it is a collection site of translations from various people. They are linked to:
http://www.ccel.org/


Grenville - please read this one and see if it is correct. Thanks.

Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.iv.ii.html

Thank you Grenville for catching that mis-information- I just double checked your link.

Hi Follower:

That appears to be an authoritative translation.

Regards,
Grenville
 
Hi Everyone:

I understand that Islamic religious tradition teaches that Paul ‘corrupted’ the Gospel message. However, hopefully this thread shows that to be an incorrect teaching. Paul actually explained Jesus’ ultimate purpose, which was to build a kingdom and deliver that Kingdom to God. Paul’ writings cam be complicated, as Peter noted; however, a relevant portion is produced below.

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

For “He has put all things under His feet.”But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 20-28)
If this is read assuming that Jesus is God, then it leads to confusion. However, if it is read assuming that Jesus is not God, then it is consistent with all other scriptures, and the message is clear.

Regards,
Grenville
 
Hi Everyone:

I understand that Islamic religious tradition teaches that Paul ‘corrupted’ the Gospel message. However, hopefully this thread shows that to be an incorrect teaching. Paul actually explained Jesus’ ultimate purpose, which was to build a kingdom and deliver that Kingdom to God. Paul’ writings cam be complicated, as Peter noted; however, a relevant portion is produced below.

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

For “He has put all things under His feet.”But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 20-28)
If this is read assuming that Jesus is God, then it leads to confusion. However, if it is read assuming that Jesus is not God, then it is consistent with all other scriptures, and the message is clear.

Regards,
Grenville



"I was sent to the lost sheep of Israel....................."
Clearly shows what Jesus's message was.

"Go baptize all nations in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit...", I believe is considered a fabrication according to chrisitian scholars.
 
Another thing I wanted to ask you Grenville.
If what you say is true about:
1)Jesus being not GOD.
2)Jesus not son of GOD but a messenger.
3)Jesus being saviour.

How do you reconcile all this with the concept of the trinity?

please respond.
 
"I was sent to the lost sheep of Israel....................."
Clearly shows what Jesus's message was.

"Go baptize all nations in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit...", I believe is considered a fabrication according to chrisitian scholars.

Hi GreyKode:

Jesus also stated:

And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. (John 10:16)

You should be aware that Muslims are included in the “other sheep” which are not in the fold of Israel. You should also be aware that the following last words of Jesus recorded in Matthew are not in dispute.

And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” (Matthew 28:18-20)​

Jesus’ message is one for all nations. The problem is that our religious traditions often get in the way, making the message ineffective. This also happened in Jesus’ day as He spoke with religious leaders.

Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. (Matthew 15:6b)​

Regards,
Grenville
 
Another thing I wanted to ask you Grenville.
If what you say is true about:
1)Jesus being not GOD.
2)Jesus not son of GOD but a messenger.
3)Jesus being saviour.

How do you reconcile all this with the concept of the trinity?

please respond.

Hi GreyKode:

Let us be very clear. I believe what is explicitly stated in the Bible, which is that Jesus is not God, but that He is a Prophet, the Son of God, and the Saviour.

The strongest Biblical evidence for a Trinity is in Matthew 28:18-20 which I quoted in my last post. Christian religious tradition, without verification, assumed this to be a Trinity of God rather than a Trinity of persons, with God being one part of that Trinity.

Regards,
Grenville
 
Christian religious tradition, without verification, assumed this to be a Trinity of God rather than a Trinity of persons, with God being one part of that Trinity.


Please elaborate, are you saying that there is another trinity?, if so please explain it.
 
Please elaborate, are you saying that there is another trinity?, if so please explain it.

Dear GreyKode:

The word “trinity” simply means a group of 3 persons or things. There are many groups of three things and people in the Bible; however, only the Father, Son, and Spirit were assumed by Christian tradition to be a trinity of deity.

There is no evidence that withstands scrutiny that supports the concept of a trinity of deity. If you think thatr such evidence exists, then please post it on the sister thread "Is there any Biblical evidence that describes Jesus as God."

Regards,
Grenville
 
Hi GreyKode:

Let us be very clear. I believe what is explicitly stated in the Bible, which is that Jesus is not God, but that He is a Prophet, the Son of God, and the Saviour.
Where is it explicity stated in the Bible that Jesus is not God? I don't want inference, I want an explicit statement.

The strongest Biblical evidence for a Trinity is in Matthew 28:18-20 which I quoted in my last post. Christian religious tradition, without verification, assumed this to be a Trinity of God rather than a Trinity of persons, with God being one part of that Trinity.

Regards,
Grenville
What Christian tradition held that God was one part of a Trinity? None that I know of. The tradition I am familiar with holds that the concept of trinity is used to describe the God who exists in three persons and yet is just one God. That is certainly different than what you just said.
 
LOL!! Interesting Grenville - I remember you saying that you believe that Jesus is GOD's WORD incarnate.

It might help if you told us what denomination you were- Jehovah Witness [which I believe I remember you saying that you were not]; Christadelphian -then I can see how you believe the Quran and Bible are in harmony.

On another thread I have shown where Jesus did not reprimand people when they worshipped Him. Are you saying that Jesus should have corrected the people?
 

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