First martyr in Germany

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Opinion: In solidarity with all Muslims

"Marwa al-Sherbini's murder is the consequence of unchecked hate against Muslims, spread from extremists through to people at the center of society," says Stephan J. Kramer, of the Central Council of Jews in Germany.

On Monday, July 6, along with Aiman Mazyek, general secretary of the Central Council of Muslims in Germany, the Egyptian Ambassador Ramzi Ezzeldin Ramzi, Chief Constable Bernd Merbitz and the Justice Minister for Saxony, Geert Mackenroth, I visited Elwi Ali Okaz in a hospital in Dresden.

His wife, Marwa al-Sherbini, was stabbed to death by someone who hated Muslims - and this in a German court of law. Her unborn child died at the same time. Her three-year-old son was forced to watch the murder in the courtroom. Her husband, who attempted to protect her, was also critically injured.

In making this hospital visit, we wanted to offer moral support to Elwi Ali Okaz – whom, in a ghastly misunderstanding, a policeman shot after mistaking him for the attacker – and to make public our solidarity, not only with the victims of this attack, but with all Muslims in Germany.

Smug, patronizing satisfaction

Our visit received unexpectedly broad media coverage. The annoying thing about this was that some editors seemed to find the visit to Dresden by representatives of two different religions more significant than the racist murder itself. Apparently some editors found the murder of a Muslim woman much less notable than the joint appearance of two general secretaries, one Muslim the other Jewish.

In some editorials an almost smug, patronizing satisfaction could be detected, as they described an "alliance of minorities" that had finally shown itself capable of learning how to work together.

Attack on the democratic society as a whole

This situation calls for a few words of clarification. I did not travel to Dresden because I, as a Jew, belong to a minority. I made the journey because, as a Jew, I know that anyone who attacks a person because of race, nationality or religion is not only attacking that minority, but rather democratic society as a whole.

The relevant question is therefore not why a representative of the Jewish community paid his condolences and showed solidarity with Elwi Ali Okaz, but rather why there was not a steady stream of visitors or statements of solidarity from representatives of the social majority in Germany.

Why did reactions to the murder from the media and politicians come so late? This has been remedied, not least due to international public pressure. Concern is not convincing, however, if you have been forced to show it.

The wider significance of the Dresden attack

It appears that German society has not recognized the wider significance of the Dresden attack. It has failed to see that the murder of Marwa al-Sherbini is clearly the consequence of largely unchecked hate propaganda against Muslims spread by everyone from marginal extremists through to people at the center of society.

The far-right scene above all has ensured a climate of discrimination, demonization and fear of people with different beliefs and ethnic backgrounds.

Moreover, there is also a lack of awareness that society's inadequate resistance to racism threatens to encourage further acts of terrorism – the word is wholly appropriate – such as this cowardly murder in Dresden.

No alternative to extensive dialogue

For this reason, Germany needs to be tough with itself. It is not only important to isolate the agitators and punish them, but also to raise awareness on a long-term basis and disseminate knowledge about the Muslim people, its culture, religion and customs.

Our aim is to encourage more than mere tolerance, but rather respect in our dealings with each other. Nothing can replace extensive dialogue – not only between theologians and officials, but also between citizens on the whole: this is groundwork in the best sense of the word.

I know that the shock and uncertainty among Muslims is particularly great at the moment. This is understandable.

Nevertheless, they should not abandon their efforts to take their rightful place in German society. For some – and the experience of other minorities including Jews shows this – this means a balancing act between maintaining one's identity and merging with the societal environment. In resolving this dilemma, too, an open dialogue between the minority and the majority is also indispensible.

Integration does not mean assimilation. If there is mutual respect, being different is no barrier to living together.

Author: Stephan J. Kramer

This article was first published on the Qantara.de Web site, a joint project from Deutsche Welle, Germany's Federal Center for Political Education, the Goethe Institute and the Institute for Foreign Cultural Relations. Qantara.de aims to promote dialogue with the Islamic world. It is funded by the German Foreign Ministry.

Source

 
even we have arguments so many times with the jews... but I think they understand our situation in the western world ... because before Muslims.. they faced the same situation too...
 
I tell you, I clicked on that link and found some detestable comments from turds, I think Islamonline should in the least censor curse words like this forums does.. Astghfor Allah.. blatant disrespect.. but then I don't actually expect better .. likening Muslims to animals, when in fact they are not fit to be the manure letdown by animals!
 
This really is a horrible case, and I am sorry for the dead woman and her unborn child.

---

Yet...

How many decades have there been large scale muslim immigration to Germany? How does one case end up being portraying so much? (to be honest with so many decades of muslims living in Germany I find it unrealistic that she is the "first martyr of Germany" or if she really is, what does that say about Germany?) When the victim is muslim, one case can and indeed is generalised to portray widespread phenomenom like Islamophobia. Try applying the same standards to a crime perpetrated by muslims and you are blamed of islamophobia. There is so much sensationalism, racism and westophobia around this issue yet when the perpetrator isnt muslim but the victim is, the forum critics of sensationalism and pointification stay largely quiet.

Why doesn't the murdered 15-year-old muslim girl, who was stabbed to death in Germany just few weeks before this case, get her own street named after her or any attention on this forum? Or why doesnt the hate crimes against other communities get as much Europe wide media attention, for example the murder of the gay man in Sweden early 2009 or the murder in gay pride parade before that, in both cases the perpetrators were muslims. Due to the reactions of muslim communities, or outright lack I find the article A murder that Germany ignored posted by Uthman very ironical.

There are several, really too many, hate crimes in Europe, many of them dont get any more attention than this one originally did in german press, some of them are done by muslims aswell, which in turn are ignored by muslims. So why should Germany pay any more attention to this single case when no one else does so when their communities perpetrate hate crimes?

Uthmān;1181887 said:
Many in her homeland were outraged by the attack and saw the low-key response in Germany as an example of racism and anti-Muslim sentiment.

But this is perhaps one of the most intresting quotes and I hope the people in her homeland show us what the reaction needs to be the next time a hate crime is committed by a muslim.

I don't know, the rules seem so different when the victim is muslim, but I do get the point about how muslims feel when a terrorist attack is on the news perpetrated by self-proclaimed muslims.
 
The west makes enough of a big deal of alleged attacks perpetrated by Muslims to hear the protests of others and apparently use it as a carte blanche to leave the entire Muslim world in unrest with illegal wars and occupations.
Hate crimes are a common thing indeed.. it is alot more visible though when done in a court of law in broad day light, I can't imagine her killer being allowed in with a knife, let alone stabbing her once or twice or three times or four times.. How many times must you stab before someone in a court room takes notice? It must have been amusing enough for even when her husband jumped to her aid, he was fired at twice, and in the witnessing eyes of their son.. and in fact if you so much as click on the islamonline link, you'll find more hate filled aganda with people going so far as calling her a dog deserving of death. And then speaking about how we oppress our women..
I am a Muslim woman, I don't need ignorant naked idiots speaking on my behalf or deflecting away and watering down this tragedy. In fact it is what you are doing now..

This isn't about alleged terrorist acts. This is about Marwa.. do you think you can focus on that or at least keep out?
 
Salaam

I tell you, I clicked on that link and found some detestable comments from turds

Sorry to hear that :(

Sis , did u report about any offensive post ? I did about one . Hope mod will delete those horrible comments.
 
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The west makes enough of a big deal of alleged attacks perpetrated by Muslims to hear the protests of others and apparently use it as a carte blanche to leave the entire Muslim world in unrest with illegal wars and occupations.
Hate crimes are a common thing indeed.. it is alot more visible though when done in a court of law in broad day light, I can't imagine her killer being allowed in with a knife, let alone stabbing her once or twice or three times or four times.. How many times must you stab before someone in a court room takes notice? It must have been amusing enough for even when her husband jumped to her aid, he was fired at twice, and in the witnessing eyes of their son.. and in fact if you so much as click on the islamonline link, you'll find more hate filled aganda with people going so far as calling her a dog deserving of death. And then speaking about how we oppress our women..
I am a Muslim woman, I don't need ignorant naked idiots speaking on my behalf or deflecting away and watering down this tragedy. In fact it is what you are doing now..

This isn't about alleged terrorist acts. This is about Marwa.. do you think you can focus on that or at least keep out?

Yea seriously. Rightly said sis. I just see fake sympathy when people say oh im sorry that to hear but what about so and so...etc etc...something totally ridiculous as to make it look like an "oh well" sort of thing..
 
This really is a horrible case, and I am sorry for the dead woman and her unborn child.

---

Yet...
Saying that as a prologue to standard complaining really makes your sentiments seem hollow. You might want to bear that in mind in future.

How many decades have there been large scale muslim immigration to Germany? How does one case end up being portraying so much? (to be honest with so many decades of muslims living in Germany I find it unrealistic that she is the "first martyr of Germany" or if she really is, what does that say about Germany?)
It’s a headline. It doesn’t need to be analysed too much.

When the victim is muslim, one case can and indeed is generalised to portray widespread phenomenom like Islamophobia. Try applying the same standards to a crime perpetrated by muslims and you are blamed of islamophobia. There is so much sensationalism, racism and westophobia around this issue yet when the perpetrator isnt muslim but the victim is, the forum critics of sensationalism and pointification stay largely quiet.
You’ve just implied that ‘If a Western person kills a Muslim, you can call it Islamaphobia with impunity, but if a Muslim kills a Western person, you cannot call it Westophobia’. Yet you just used the term ‘westophobia’ yourself.

The point is, can we stop with the sanctimonious whining on either side please?

(Yes, that was a sanctimonious whine in itself, but I’m only venting. I won’t delete any posts because they are whining. If that were to be applied to the entire Internet, only three sites would remain in existence)

Why doesn't the murdered 15-year-old muslim girl, who was stabbed to death in Germany just few weeks before this case, get her own street named after her or any attention on this forum? Or why doesnt the hate crimes against other communities get as much Europe wide media attention, for example the murder of the gay man in Sweden early 2009 or the murder in gay pride parade before that, in both cases the perpetrators were muslims. Due to the reactions of muslim communities, or outright lack I find the article A murder that Germany ignored posted by Uthman very ironical.
Really? Are murders in court rooms while the court is in session so commonplace as to be deemed un-newsworthy by the majority of outlets?

There are several, really too many, hate crimes in Europe, many of them dont get any more attention than this one originally did in german press, some of them are done by muslims aswell, which in turn are ignored by muslims. So why should Germany pay any more attention to this single case when no one else does so when their communities perpetrate hate crimes?
Because it took place in a court of law, for goodness sake. Again, this shows either a grotesque lack of security in that particular court or is evidence of corruption in that court or in the judicial system.

But this is perhaps one of the most intresting quotes and I hope the people in her homeland show us what the reaction needs to be the next time a hate crime is committed by a muslim.

I don't know, the rules seem so different when the victim is muslim, but I do get the point about how muslims feel when a terrorist attack is on the news perpetrated by self-proclaimed muslims.
Terrorist attacks are deplorable.

And so are murders committed in court rooms. During hearings. I mean, seriously, what the hell?
 
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Saying that as a prologue to standard complaining really makes your sentiments seem hollow. You might want to bear that in mind in future.

I really do feel bad about the case but I don't know the proper etiquette complaining about the bad caused by such a tragic event.

Complaining about racism and other bad things caused by tragic events towards those who somehow felt connected to the perpetrator or perpetrators (alledged) beliefs didn't really seem to bother anyone here before, sometimes even when the incidents in questions weren't completely over. So somehow your remark seems just as hollow.

You’ve just implied that ‘If a Western person kills a Muslim, you can call it Islamaphobia with impunity, but if a Muslim kills a Western person, you cannot call it Westophobia’. Yet you just used the term ‘westophobia’ yourself.

The point is, can we stop with the sanctimonious whining on either side please?

(Yes, that was a sanctimonious whine in itself, but I’m only venting. I won’t delete any posts because they are whining. If that were to be applied to the entire Internet, only three sites would remain in existence)

The point I'm trying to make is that when a muslim kills non-muslim you cannot generalise it as a widespread phenomenom or a problem but when a non-muslim kills a muslim you apparently can and the generalisations seems far more tolerated now even tho there are some voices for moderation. I mean come on, this murder is somehow a prelude to a great war between non-muslims and muslims aswell as a sure sign why islam and the west cannot be friends.

Really? Are murders in court rooms while the court is in session so commonplace as to be deemed un-newsworthy by the majority of outlets?

Because it took place in a court of law, for goodness sake. Again, this shows either a grotesque lack of security in that particular court or is evidence of corruption in that court or in the judicial system.

Did you actually read the article? It doesn't lament the lack of reporting about the murder in the courtroom, which according to the article if not in the first page was actually reported, it laments the lack of the hate aspect being reported by germans. Something which everybody ignores at times.

Terrorist attacks are deplorable.

And so are murders committed in court rooms. During hearings. I mean, seriously, what the hell?

I think you miss my point completely. One murder leads to generalisations of violent unciviliced Germany and whatnot. When the perpetrator is muslim, this sort of attitude is very heavily criticised, now its almost ignored.
 
I tell you, I clicked on that link and found some detestable comments from turds, I think Islamonline should in the least censor curse words like this forums does.. Astghfor Allah.. blatant disrespect.. but then I don't actually expect better .. likening Muslims to animals, when in fact they are not fit to be the manure letdown by animals!

some of those comments are just...:blind:
anywas what are those ignorant fools doing on a islamic site?!
Islamonline should not only censor curse words but also delete disgusting comments especially when they are about the prophet (pbuh)
 
It could be that they're exposing the ignorant fools, otherwise people will think they don't exist and we make it up...Allahu Alam. But yea it should be deleted :/
 
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I really do feel bad about the case but I don't know the proper etiquette complaining about the bad caused by such a tragic event.

Complaining about racism and other bad things caused by tragic events towards those who somehow felt connected to the perpetrator or perpetrators (alledged) beliefs didn't really seem to bother anyone here before, sometimes even when the incidents in questions weren't completely over. So somehow your remark seems just as hollow.
Except I didn't complain about racism or mention beliefs, nor did I make any remarks that could be rendered hollow, so your comments are merely typical knee-jerk reactions caused by the chip on your shoulder.

The point I'm trying to make is that when a muslim kills non-muslim you cannot generalise it as a widespread phenomenom or a problem but when a non-muslim kills a muslim you apparently can and the generalisations seems far more tolerated now even tho there are some voices for moderation. I mean come on, this murder is somehow a prelude to a great war between non-muslims and muslims aswell as a sure sign why islam and the west cannot be friends.
I have never said that, nor do I believe that. If other members do, I disagree.

If I see prominent media political commentators spouting that rhetoric, I'll say you have a point.

Did you actually read the article? It doesn't lament the lack of reporting about the murder in the courtroom, which according to the article if not in the first page was actually reported,
Yeah. In the back page. I mean, if a murder in a court room gets pushed all the way to the back, I don't know if I even want to see what's on the front page.

it laments the lack of the hate aspect being reported by germans. Something which everybody ignores at times.
Okay.

I think you miss my point completely. One murder leads to generalisations of violent unciviliced Germany and whatnot. When the perpetrator is muslim, this sort of attitude is very heavily criticised, now its almost ignored.
Who has said the whole country of Germany is uncivilised? Who has said every German is a violent murderer?

I am really tired of people crying 'Double Standards' when there aren't any.
 
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Except I didn't complain about racism or mention beliefs, nor did I make any remarks that could be rendered hollow, so your comments are merely typical knee-jerk reactions caused by the chip on your shoulder.

But it happens a lot on this forum. I've never really seen anyone complaining about it before, so why now, why me?

I have never said that, nor do I believe that. If other members do, I disagree.

If I see prominent media political commentators spouting that rhetoric, I'll say you have a point.

As I said earlier, such rhetoric and attitude is now mostly conviniently ignored. It isn't when there is a thread about some other violent incident where the perpetrators are muslim.

I don't follow the logic of needing prominent media political commentator to spout that rhetoric to have a point, such rhetoric is slammed when regular non-muslim forumites portray it towards muslims. But not now, not this time.

Yeah. In the back page. I mean, if a murder in a court room gets pushed all the way to the back, I don't know if I even want to see what's on the front page.

I'll just quote someone's feelings from earlier this thread:
Whether he killed her in the courtroom or not isn't a massive issue here - its still murder

I don't know why but I got the similar feeling that the murder in court room was just a secondary issue in the article. But perhaps it isn't for you, my criticisim was however towards those who see the ignorance of the said hate as main issue. No hate shouldn't be ignored, quite the contrary, but some sence of proportion would be nice when pontificating the germans. And if people want to condemn hate, then maybe they show us what is enough and how it is appropriate as an example when someone they feel connected to is behind a hate crime.

Who has said the whole country of Germany is uncivilised? Who has said every German is a violent murderer?

I am really tired of people crying 'Double Standards' when there aren't any.

Right, the islam and the west can't be friends and this is just a prelude to the great war wasn't enough? But what about they are out to get you, or I don't believe it's not the majority, or maybe the part about how jews understand how we weel because they were like that in Europe before. From one brutal murder to holocaust victims. And that's just from this thread, the unciviliced part I actually picked from a comment section of a news link somewhere from this thread.

I mean for goodness sake, seriously.
 
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But it happens a lot on this forum. I've never really seen anyone complaining about it before, so why now, why me?
Because you’re talking to me in this instance, and I feel you doth protest too much.

Protesting too much for my liking is not against the rules, so that’s why you’ll see it elsewhere from other members.

As I said earlier, such rhetoric and attitude is now mostly conviniently ignored. It isn't when there is a thread about some other violent incident where the perpetrators are muslim.

I don't follow the logic of needing prominent media political commentator to spout that rhetoric to have a point, such rhetoric is slammed when regular non-muslim forumites portray it towards muslims. But not now, not this time.
Firstly, you are the one slamming it this time.

Secondly, prominent media political commentators are in a position of authority and influence most posters on the Internet do not enjoy. This also feeds into the whole ‘Oh, the media is evil and out to get us etc’ that every Internet poster of politics feels, no matter their beliefs.

Thirdly, you’re on a mostly Muslim forum talking about politics. Did you not predict any bias?

I don't know why but I got the similar feeling that the murder in court room was just a secondary issue in the article. But perhaps it isn't for you, my criticisim was however towards those who see the ignorance of the said hate as main issue. No hate shouldn't be ignored, quite the contrary, but some sence of proportion would be nice when pontificating the germans. And if people want to condemn hate, then maybe they show us what is enough and how it is appropriate as an example when someone they feel connected to is behind a hate crime.
Okay.

Right, the islam and the west can't be friends and this is just a prelude to the great war wasn't enough? But what about they are out to get you, or I don't believe it's not the majority, or maybe the part about how jews understand how we weel because they were like that in Europe before. From one brutal murder to holocaust victims. And that's just from this thread, the unciviliced part I actually picked from a comment section of a news link somewhere from this thread.

I mean for goodness sake, seriously.
I mean for goodness sake, seriously, go and type ‘Islam’ in YouTube and look through some comments on any given video that allows them.

I mean for goodness sake, seriously, these are just people on the Internet who exaggerate for effect and have little real influence.

I mean for goodness sake, seriously, go forth and play Mario Kart.
 
Because you’re talking to me in this instance, and I feel you doth protest too much.

Protesting too much for my liking is not against the rules, so that’s why you’ll see it elsewhere from other members.

You are kind of dodging the point. The post I wrote the first time I wasn't talking to you. If protesting too much causes you to type complaints, then why have you not opened the chest of your console jokes to the other members who protest too much? :p

Firstly, you are the one slamming it this time.

Thirdly, you’re on a mostly Muslim forum talking about politics. Did you not predict any bias?

I came to talk and discuss with muslims. Of course I predicted some bias, does that mean I cannot talk about or point out the bias? Especially when something like this is being used to spread hate and intolerance towards Europeans and Germans.

Do you not notice that you are now actually complaining about my complaining of racist generalisations of hole group because of one incident?

Secondly, prominent media political commentators are in a position of authority and influence most posters on the Internet do not enjoy. This also feeds into the whole ‘Oh, the media is evil and out to get us etc’ that every Internet poster of politics feels, no matter their beliefs.

"Members of group A" say racist generalisations about "group B" -> "group B" condemns
"Members of group B" say racist generalisations about "group A" -> noting and complaining about the lack of condemnation by "group B" is only valid when prominent media political commentator is involved?

I mean for goodness sake, seriously, go and type ‘Islam’ in YouTube and look through some comments on any given video that allows them.

I mean for goodness sake, seriously, these are just people on the Internet who exaggerate for effect and have little real influence.

I mean for goodness sake, seriously, go forth and play Mario Kart.

The others do it too? Well, thats neat.

Anyway, I suggest to try Little King's Story, its actually fun.
 
You are kind of dodging the point. The post I wrote the first time I wasn't talking to you. If protesting too much causes you to type complaints, then why have you not opened the chest of your console jokes to the other members who protest too much? :p
Because I don't happen to read and respond to every single post on the forum.

I came to talk and discuss with muslims. Of course I predicted some bias, does that mean I cannot talk about or point out the bias?
Who is saying you cannot talk about or point out the bias? Have I deleted any of your posts because they do?

All I've said was that in my personal opinion, I'm sick of such complaining on either side. I specifically defined that as a personal opinion, not a forum protocol.

Especially when something like this is being used to spread hate and intolerance towards Europeans and Germans.
If there is any of that in this thread, please report it.

Do you not notice that you are now actually complaining about my complaining of racist generalisations of hole group because of one incident?
Yes I do notice. The reason I'm complaining is because we're all missing the real point here, which is not a matter of partisan politics or tit-for-tat as such. An innocent woman was murdered in a court room, which in itself is a betrayal of the justice system and makes a mockery of it.

"Members of group A" say racist generalisations about "group B" -> "group B" condemns
No members of group A condemn, in which case...

"Members of group B" say racist generalisations about "group A" -> noting and complaining about the lack of condemnation by "group B" is only valid when prominent media political commentator is involved?
Why do you expect members of group B to condemn? What exactly is there to complain about? Is this not to be expected? See what I mean?

However, if you see racism etc here (I've not read through every reply in this thread), do report it.

The others do it too? Well, thats neat.
This is Internetz, as they say. Generalisations are to be expected in political threads. It's the foundation of political debate in particular. Now, if people are hate-mongering and calling to violence and otherwise breaking the rules, please direct myself or another mod to their posts and we will deal with them.
 
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Because I don't happen to read and respond to every single post on the forum.

Right, so you've totally missed such behaviour before. Do you have any idea how unbelieveable that sounds? My theory is that it has just not bothered you before enough to notice it, and that's probably because the victim wasn't a muslim.

Who is saying you cannot talk about or point out the bias? Have I deleted any of your posts because they do?

All I've said was that in my personal opinion, I'm sick of such complaining on either side. I specifically defined that as a personal opinion, not a forum protocol.

Isn't that your implication? I protest too much? So that would lead to I shouldn't protest when I see something wrong? (and yes, I did realise it wasn't forum rules but your personal opinion)

Yes I do notice. The reason I'm complaining is because we're all missing the real point here, which is not a matter of partisan politics or tit-for-tat as such. An innocent woman was murdered in a court room, which in itself is a betrayal of the justice system and makes a mockery of it.

I know, I agree. So why didn't you speak before, for example when this case was a sure sign of how West and Islam cannot be friends? Or how about at the article of which the hole purpose was to point finger at the racist ignoring Germans.

Why does pointing out the real point here start at the non-muslim?

No members of group A condemn, in which case...

Why do you expect members of group B to condemn? What exactly is there to complain about? Is this not to be expected? See what I mean?

Because it has been one of the main themes and often the carrying force in several threads in here and actually elsewhere aswell. It is one of the main arguements from muslims when speaking about violent incidents perpetrated by muslims. You shouldn't generalise hole group over few incidents.

Is it to be expected? Probably yes. Should it be accepted or tolerated silently?

However, if you see racism etc here (I've not read through every reply in this thread), do report it.

I just like to point out here maybe you should have read every reply in this thread to find out why I feel like protesting instead of starting with me.

This is Internetz, as they say. Generalisations are to be expected in political threads. It's the foundation of political debate in particular.

Fair enough. To a certain point I agree, however, as I've been trying to say, such generalisations towards muslims have been a red herring here before.
 
hang on the guy who did it was Russian.Unless he doesn't go to jail for this or any serious punishment I will consider the Germans totally prejudiced.They DID fine that guy for his previous crime.
But all in all I guess they want Muslims out of Europe.
 

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