Brother Fawad

[fawad]

Hey

"and discussions that conflict with Islam or is it strictly an Islamic site?"

Depends on what you mean by 'conflict with Islam'. If you mean hate mongering and crude, ignorant remarks, then no, that is not tolerated here. If you mean debating and discussing respectfully, then yes, we welcome such discussions. We have many non muslim members here who enjoy participating in the forums. We also have many trolls (both muslim and not) that were banned. It's up to you which group you want to be a part of.

As long as you stick to the rules you should have no problems inshaAllah.

Welcome to the forums!

Thanks.

No, I definitely am not interested in hate mongering here. I respect other people irrespective of whether they believe in what I do or not.

welc\ome brother, just out of curiosity if you really dont beleive in Islam any longer, why are you here ? Your input will be invited if you are genuinely interested. Peace

Well, to share my views and get yours.

Btw, just because I am no longer a believer doesn't mean I hate those who do believe.

Actually, I am here just to know why people believe what they do and what thought process goes into their mind to make them believe (or disbelieve like I do) on certain things. As I said, just because I do not believe doesn't mean I hate those who do but you cannot ask such questions to people in real life if you know what I mean.

So its basically just out of curiosity.

 

[Tony]

Re: Hi

I would ask this in real life brother, but I meant it in a way meaning perhaps you still beleive deep down and came for assurances. Peace and respect, enjoy your time here.

 

[fawad]

Re: Hi

I would ask this in real life brother, but I meant it in a way meaning perhaps you still beleive deep down and came for assurances. Peace and respect, enjoy your time here.

You probably would because your location shows bradford. You won't dare do that if you were in a muslim country since most people are really very strict followers and someone questioning a belief they have heard and believed for centuries is not really welcomed.

 

[Tony]

Re: Hi

You probably would because your location shows bradford. You won't dare do that if you were in a muslim country since most people are really very strict followers and someone questioning a belief they have heard and believed for centuries is not really welcomed.

Edit as misunderstood your response I think. Peace

 

[aadil77]

Re: Hi

Hi fawad, so can I ask what lead you away from islam?

 

[fawad]

Re: Hi

thanks again everyone

Followed a resonse i made that was way off , i misinterreted you and gave a poor response. Peace and respect Fawad

Peace to you too bro.

Hi fawad, so can I ask what lead you away from islam?

Sure you can.

Let's see, most of us follow what we are brought up and told to follow. Like I didn't choose to be a muslim but happened to be born in a family and country that believed in God. And as a kid, we were told and taught to worship God and believe in Him, live according to His teachings, heaven and hell, etc etc. but when you grow up you start asking questions. You cannot blindly follow something that does not make sense to you at all.

I did lots of research and reading and sought knowledge from the learned in this subject. I won't go into details but its basically the question of belief. I fail to see any reasonable and concrete evidence about such an entity that rules the world. Most religious "evidences" starts with a flawed point to go on and try to prove whatever is the central theme of that religion but such arguments fail to convince me.

Religion to me is a invention of early men that used this concept of a "supreme being" to explain the various phenomenon that they had no idea about and to try to explain their personal experiences. If you even look at history, first of all man worshiped the sun, moon, etc because these were things he could see but not understand. Later, when he understood these things, he shifted his belief to an unseen power that is responsible for all the inexplicable.

Before proof of earth being round was discovered, everyone believed the earth was flat like a religion just as people believed in gods and godesses. As mankind gained more knowledge, these superstitious believes and inaccuracies began to disappear. Not everyone, however, excepted that on day one. Gradually people started excepting the facts and later everyone believed in it. Similarly, now more and more of what was previously attributed to a "supreme being" is explicable and gradually people are turning away from this belief. As the things starts to unfold in front of you, you discard previous superstitious believes and accept knowledge.

Long story shot, give one credible evidence and I will change my belief.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Re: Hi

^^The fact that something as unique as yourself(human being) exists...with all our little details and how advanced we are as living things...of course that is good enough for me, maybe not for you. Just that bit and more..

 

[Tony]

Re: Hi

The foretelling of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and his perfect conduct throughout his entire life. Peace

 

[fawad]

Re: Hi

^^The fact that something as unique as yourself(human being) exists...with all our little details and how advanced we are as living things...of course that is good enough for me, maybe not for you. Just that bit and more..

I have that argument millions of time. Just look at how complex the human being is, how vast the universe is, how perfect the earths conditions are to support life, etc and therefore there must be god (or gods or goddesses depending on your belief).

Let me ask you one simple question. If humans are so powerful and complex things, and universe is such an immense that it could not have existed by itself then God, the supposed creator of all this should be even more powerful than the creation, right? How comes you never asked yourself who created god or how did he/she came to being? Surely, if a little thing like a human must have a creator than a more supreme being like god couldn't have just existed itself and must have its own creator which in turn must have its own creator?

So where do we stop? Otherwise put, how come someone can believe that god existed forever and no questions should be raised about him but cannot believe that laws of physics existed forever and you are raising questions about how they came into existence? Modern science have already started explaining much into how we came into existence and how the universe came into existence--something that we were previously ignorant about.

The point is whatever you are saying are just opinions or thinkings or myths but with no evidence whatsoever. There is no concrete evidence whether direct or indirect to suggest any "supreme being" exists. Besides, most of what was attributed to god is now being take over by science and getting a good explanation to why stuff happens. I believe its just a matter of time and when people start getting educated, older beliefs and myths will start to disappear.

The foretelling of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and his perfect conduct throughout his entire life. Peace

I do not completely agree with the whole sentence of yours but lets leave that aside. Even then, how is that a proof that there is a God out there?

 

[GuestFellow]

Re: Hi

Modern science have already started explaining much into how we came into existence and how the universe came into existence--something that we were previously ignorant about.

Personally I believe in Allah due to personal experiences. There are also other things personally why I believe in God, such as the world is complex and yes science has to some extent explained some of its mysterious however, most of the time I learnt at school it happened at random chance which I cannot believe because the world is so perfect and organised.

I know this is not evidence for people to believe in God but that is my reasoning.

Peace.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Re: Hi

I have that argument millions of time. Just look at how complex the human being is, how vast the universe is, how perfect the earths conditions are to support life, etc and therefore there must be god (or gods or goddesses depending on your belief).

Otherwise put, how come someone can believe that god existed forever and no questions should be raised about him but cannot believe that laws of physics existed forever and you are raising questions about how they came into existence? Modern science have already started explaining much into how we came into existence and how the universe came into existence--something that we were previously ignorant about.

There is no concrete evidence whether direct or indirect to suggest any "supreme being" exists. Besides, most of what was attributed to god is now being take over by science and getting a good explanation to why stuff happens. I believe its just a matter of time and when people start getting educated, older beliefs and myths will start to disappear.

The point is whatever you are saying are just opinions or thinkings or myths but with no evidence whatsoever.

Absolutely not. Thinking that chaos can create order is more nonsense than believing something gave it a reason to start. How do u claim to talk about science but then ignore this basic idea?

There is no concrete evidence whether direct or indirect to suggest any "supreme being" exists.

Oh well I've heard this like a bajillion times...
Let me change yours a bit.
"There is no concrete evidence whether direct or indirect to suggest any "supreme being doesn't exist."

How comes you never asked yourself who created god or how did he/she came to being? Surely, if a little thing like a human must have a creator than a more supreme being like god couldn't have just existed itself and must have its own creator which in turn must have its own creator?

Seems to me like you have answered you're own question

If I use your logic, this chain of reaction will never end. There wouldn't be a supreme being if I was to assume one god created the other then the other etc. You'd only be going in circles. You've heard my statements many times, what makes you think I haven't heard yours? What makes you think I haven't contemplated your question?

People like you are so caught up on trying to justify God with evidence you can measure, you don't see the nonsense of which you speak. Tell me oh sir, how in the world does chaos create order, when did it ever?? How could it ever? Have you ever seen something start or form without something giving it a reason to form or start? Without something or someone giving it the initial push? Experiments require precision and proper procedure and formation, otherwise your entire experiment is useless and insufficient. Now compare that puny experiment to this universe, it's not even a grain. Fixed positions, perfect order. Any imbalance disrupts the order and life anywhere.
People want empirical evidence, what empirical evidence do you have for the cold in terms of temperature? You can only go so far. Cold is the absense of heat. Do you see electricity, gravity? Can you see electrons, protons, neutrons, the atom? Tell me.

So where do we stop?

You tell me? It seems to me that those who want to reject the idea of God are more stingy. They complain of the religious folk stuffing their beliefs down other peoples throats, I see it both ways.

 

[- IqRa -]

Re: Hi

Actually, I am here just to know why people believe what they do and what thought process goes into their mind to make them believe (or disbelieve like I do) on certain things.

Why were you Muslim?

 

[fawad]

Re: Hi

Absolutely not. Thinking that chaos can create order is more nonsense than believing something gave it a reason to start. How do u claim to talk about science but then ignore this basic idea?

What basic idea? what chaos and what order? I presume you are talking about big bang, am I right?

As I said before, we all know that there are certain laws that govern the existence and interaction of matter. We can see, measure and observe these laws. Anything that has happened can be explained with the help of these laws so there is no chaos and btw, the order you are talking about is far from order.

Oh well I've heard this like a bajillion times...
Let me change yours a bit.
"There is no concrete evidence whether direct or indirect to suggest any "supreme being doesn't exist."

Exactly, so what do you do when you do not have an evidence? do you believe number 13 is cursed? there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. Do you believe that god as a son? there is no evidence that he "doesn't exist" as you like to put it. Do you believe that pigs can not fly?

Seems to me like you have answered you're own question

If I use your logic, this chain of reaction will never end. There wouldn't be a supreme being if I was to assume one god created the other then the other etc. You'd only be going in circles. You've heard my statements many times, what makes you think I haven't heard yours? What makes you think I haven't contemplated your question?

Exactly, and that's the reason I do not go into circles.

People like you are so caught up on trying to justify God with evidence you can measure, you don't see the nonsense of which you speak. Tell me oh sir, how in the world does chaos create order, when did it ever?? How could it ever? Have you ever seen something start or form without something giving it a reason to form or start? Without something or someone giving it the initial push? Experiments require precision and proper procedure and formation, otherwise your entire experiment is useless and insufficient. Now compare that puny experiment to this universe, it's not even a grain. Fixed positions, perfect order. Any imbalance disrupts the order and life anywhere.
People want empirical evidence, what empirical evidence do you have for the cold in terms of temperature? You can only go so far. Cold is the absense of heat. Do you see electricity, gravity? Can you see electrons, protons, neutrons, the atom? Tell me.

calm down dear, there is no need to get hyper.

I have already answered about chaos and order above. And yes you can create, change, observe, feel and measure electricity and gravity.

I am surprised by your last sentence--have you had any formal scientific education? did you never hear of an electron microscope? Have you ever heard of colliders? Did you know we can measure the charge, speed and diameter of an electron?

You tell me? It seems to me that those who want to reject the idea of God are more stingy. They complain of the religious folk stuffing their beliefs down other peoples throats, I see it both ways.

Did I at any point shove my beliefs down someone's throat here? I simply responded so someone asking why I believe what I do. I see no
obligation in what anyone believes. Let everyone believe what satisfies him/her.

As stated before, I am here just to see what people think to believe what they do. Now I found out that you believe in God because there is no evidence to suggest he doesn't exist. I may not agree with you but it added to my knowledge of what people think.

thanks and peace.

 

[fawad]

Re: Hi

Why were you Muslim?

Probably the same reason you were. I was born into a Muslim family so it was "by default".

 

[GuestFellow]

Re: Hi

Probably the same reason you were. I was born into a Muslim family so it was "by default".

I disagree. At one point, I stopped believing in my religion and I questioned it. I didn't felt guilty for leaving my religion. I just pretended to be a Muslim for others sake.

However later on I changed and re-converted due to personal experiences. I got curious and learnt more about my religion and it made sense to me. I always wondered why I even left my religion...

 

[fawad]

Re: Hi

I disagree. At one point, I stopped believing in my religion and I questioned it. I didn't felt guilty for leaving my religion. I just pretended to be a Muslim for others sake.

However later on I changed and re-converted due to personal experiences. I got curious and learnt more about my religion and it made sense to me. I always wondered why I even left my religion...

So as soon as you were born, you made the decision of your religion? as a 1 sec old kid?

Maybe you misunderstood me.

When you re-converted, it was by your choice. When you left it before that, it was also by your choice but what about before that? When you were born as a muslim, I doubt it was a choice decision but rather by default. Thats all I was trying to say.

 

[- IqRa -]

Re: Hi

Probably the same reason you were. I was born into a Muslim family so it was "by default".

And even if for this, I stand in prayer and thank Allaah all my life, I would never be able to repay this blessing that He has given me, or the fact that He has made my Imaan so strong. Alhamdulillaah Rabbil Aalameen.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Re: Hi

I have had plenty of formal education in science. Also I wasn't referring to you being stingy, just that most atheists use that claim, but they also r very pushy. Something that sort of popped up into my head.

I fail to see where anything I said is incorrect. I don't know what science your learning then? A lot of things in science are theoretical and a lot of things can hardly be explained plus so many gaps.

Why is it assumed that energy cannot be created nor destroyed, but so difficult to admit towards God? Could you tell me what created that piece of energy that you measure? What created that particle in the big bang? Why did it suddenly decide to pop up out of nowhere and create an entire universe and then complex life forms that took us ages to explain? Something out of nothing? We're supposed to be so darn smart but we could never create life from scratch out of nothing.

 

[fawad]

Re: Hi

I have had plenty of formal education in science. Also I wasn't referring to you being stingy, just that most atheists use that claim, but they also r very pushy. Something that sort of popped up into my head.

Ah! OK no problem then.

I fail to see where anything I said is incorrect. I don't know what science your learning then? A lot of things in science are theoretical and a lot of things can hardly be explained plus so many gaps.

The science I am learning has some evidence and some proof that can be felt, observed, measured, etc not just blind belief.

Science is just knowledge that humanity has gained over time. Knowledge that has helped get rid of ignorance and ignorant believes. Sure man has to learn a lot and science is far from complete but then nobody is saying science is god, are we?

Btw, any science that cannot be explained is not science.

Why is it assumed that energy cannot be created nor destroyed, but so difficult to admit towards God? Could you tell me what created that piece of energy that you measure? What created that particle in the big bang? Why did it suddenly decide to pop up out of nowhere and create an entire universe and then complex life forms that took us ages to explain? Something out of nothing? We're supposed to be so darn smart but we could never create life from scratch out of nothing.

Energy can be felt, observed, measured, transferred from one form to another and even into matter and from matter. We know the laws that govern it and we have carried out precise experiments that prove those laws.

You cannot say the same about the god. That's the big difference.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Re: Hi

Energy can be felt, observed, measured, transferred from one form to another and even into matter and from matter. We know the laws that govern it and we have carried out precise experiments that prove those laws.

You cannot say the same about the god. That's the big difference.

Yes that is the difference because God is nowhere part of His creations, therefore there's nothing about transferring to different forms. Creation is governed by laws, but God isn't, which is also another difference.

The problem here is that people like yourselves want to put God at the level of experimentation, under your rule, under your fingertips, which will hardly ever happen.

Btw, any science that cannot be explained is not science.

Explanations doesn't necessarily mean you can see what you are explaining. What about the Quantum leap? Does that ring a bell? Most things in science involves what probably is, or what might be according to the understanding of human nature, not that it's really factual.