Oh yes, indeed.
That is a byproduct of the 'absolute morality' crowd. The people who believe and thrive on a world view impervious to new information and change. They believe it an affront to concede, or change with any new information.
perhaps you are correct in this assumption. in islam, we perceive our religion and its laws as being perfect, and in no need of change.
this obviously contradicts your views, as a progressive atheist. most atheists are more than willing to accept change if it betters the society.. if it gives people more human rights, etc. and we have seen, especially in our generation, a lot of change.. we've had a growing acceptance for individuality, for civil rights, equality, etc. islam is not against all of these changes.. in fact, islam, during the time of the prophet(saws), changed the society of mecca and medina greatly through human rights. for example, it used to be very common for arabs to bury their children if they had a female. yet, one of the first qur'anic commands that muhammad(saws) recited condemned this terrible act.
our religion also stresses racial equality. and we have no strings attached to this fact either. judaism and christianty on the other hand have some controversy within their scriptures, in particularly where the torah mentions ham and canaan. though most do not see this as a racial thing anymore, back in the civil rights era many christians commonly quoted this story to
promote their hate-filled philosophy.
islam also has the concept of "innocent until proven guilty", and we have staunch guidelines to insure that the innocent are not wrongly punished. this is certainly something that many cultures and religions did not have, but islam brought forth change in many society's in this manner.
so the idea that we are not open to change is a bit silly, because islam, during the time of the prophet(saws) and centuries after, was at the forefront of bringing forth great changes and bettering the human rights.
now as i said, we perceive islam as being a perfect religion; the laws and morals that our religion commands are not in need of any change/evolution now, due to the fact that our religion is perfect.
this obviously differs from your view; you probably believe that we can still make great changes in the world to better society. i believe we can too, and we should... but these changes should ideally come from islam, and what has already been revealed and is being practiced by many.
Uh, no.
It is not a simple choice. First of all, non-muslims by definition do not believe Islam is true. They don't believe or cannot be convinced by the claims that Islam is true unless they are given convincing evidence that Islam is true. When you insert this into the dichtonomy, it becomes unfair of God to insist that people who have not been convinced by the information at hand to declare that they are deserving of any punishment, much less eternal anguish.
Indeed, it seems a strange situation where God allows people to not believe in him, knows that millions will not believe in him (for sincere, rational and honest reasons) and yet says that they are deserving of nothing less than eternal torture.
well this is all a matter of personal opinion and doesnt at all make islam a false religion.. which you haven't claimed.
the way i see it this... the world is a diverse place and everyone rightly has their own opinions and perceptions of things. you see this as being inhumane, but many others dont. i follow what my religion teaches me, because i believe my religion to be true and i believe that my all-knowing god has answers to these problems; and not humans, with our diverse viewpoints.
Is this the vague literary test that I've heard? You know, the find a better verse than something in the Qu'ran...
yes. it is mentioned several times in the qur'an. a lot of people find the test to be subjective, and a lot of people dont take it seriously. there are millions of arab christians who hear the qur'an being recited on a daily basis and still dont feel the need to convert to islam.. they may know about this challenge but it still doesnt convince them. however, our religion still gives them a challenge that they are more than welcome to attempt to fulfill. if they think they have fulfilled the requirements of the challenge, then they have nothing to worry about for themselves... because they will feel that islam isnt true since this challenge can be met. however, they have to see if their challenge beats the qur'an in the eyes of others.. something that just hasnt happened.
It is a simple answer.
But it is an appalling answer. You could say that "God makes the rules", but then you null morality into pure obedience. You take away everything about morality that makes it so important and negate it into the dismal following of orders. You set up a situation where it doesn't matter what God says, as long as God says it.
So by your reckoning, murder is not wrong because of the harmful effects it has on people - but it is wrong because God says so. If God, was by your logic to reverse his decision you would have no moral grounds to disagree. This is an extremely worrying world view that I have seen both Christians and Muslims hold, and indeed we have directly seen the harmful effects in society both historically and in the present that it has generated.
It brings a whole new meaning to the claim that "With God, all things are possible".
interesting response, and one that has substance to it. to answer you simply, yes, i follow the moral views of my religion because god says so. you may see this as being close minded, because instead of deriving a view based on my personal opinion, i derive a view based on what my god says. but, i believe that Allah(swt) knows best and that the laws and morals that islam holds are laws and morals based on logic and faith.
you also have to understand this..
you as an atheist probably see this world as a not-so-good place, but a place that can certainly be bettered and be ideal. you are open to change, so long as it betters the world.
as a muslim, i see this world as a not-so-good place either, and a place that can also be changed and better. but, i also know that this world is full of tests and trials, to prepare us for the next life.
by logic, some islamic morals may perhaps just not seem right. for example, the view of homosexuality. though most other people here won't agree with me, i'll go ahead and say it... i dont think anyone chooses their sexual orientation. i think if you have same-sex attractions, it's something that you didn't choose.
so, by logic, if you didn't choose to be gay, and if you wish to date another person of the same gender, and you guys are not hurting anyone and are consenting and feel the same love that a heterosexual married couple feels... then what is wrong with that? how can that in any way be wrong, immoral, sinful?
if i was an atheist, that is exactly how i would see this issue. i would have no reason whatsoever to think homosexuality is wrong, because by logic and reasoning it just doesn't make sense that it would be.
however, my religion calls it a sin. my fellow muslim brothers and sisters often (wrongly) harass these people. my religion even allows the death penalty for certain homosexual acts. how can this be?!
well, for me, the answer is simple.. this world is a test. we are all tested. the qur'an even says that a muslim should never think they won't be tested.. because we will.
some people are given harder tests than others. some people will genuinely live a very hard and sad life, while others live extremely happily and easy lives. but, this life is all a test. the next life is really what every muslim should look forward to. but, we have to go through these tests and trials, and try to pass them so that we can live a great life in jannah(heaven, paradise) in the next.
that's the way i see it. sure, there are some islamic morals(though not many) that by logic and personal reasoning i just don't see why it is like that. but, when i look from it at the standpoint that this life is a test, i understand now and accept it.. though it may be hard and not fun.
i am sure you disagree with me, and i would love to see what you have to say about this. that's how i feel on issues like this, but perhaps you have a much different perception that i just haven't contemplated before.. so i look forward to your response.
thanks so much for your time
