A non-believer would like to converse

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DataPacRat

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Hello and peace;

I'm new to this board, and now that I've gotten my first (and soon-to-be-closed) thread in the Introductory forum out of the way, I'm starting this thread in hopes of encouraging some discussion.

If you've ever wanted to ask an atheist anything, here's your chance. Aside from not commenting on certain quite personal matters, I promise to answer any questions to the best of my ability, as honestly as possible.

Or, if you prefer to start out by answering questions rather than asking them, then feel free to offer your answer to: "Do you think it is possible to rationally come to the conclusion of atheism? If not, why not?".


Thank you for your time,
--
DataPacRat
lu .iacu'i ma krinu lo du'u .ei mi krici la'e di'u li'u traji lo ka vajni fo lo preti
 
Welcome to the board my fellow Ontarioan (and atheist). Good luck with your thread, though one really should not that any view any given atheist gives is likely to have something to it other than a lack of belief in Gods, and therefore isn't applicable to other atheists. Unlike religions, atheism simply doesn't have any meat to it. There's no dogma, no prophets, no holy texts, no beliefs at all, but just one lack thereof.

Hope your thread makes it past one page without it tailspinning to oblivion as has been the case with so many others of its type.
 
1. Let's assume the Bing Bang happened at second x, why didn't it happen before or after that specific time?
2. What initiated the Bing Bang?

If atheists claim that it was caused by a chemical reaction then where did all these molecules or chemical element come from in the 1st place? Moreover, isn't it ironic that they use the question 'who created God', yet, turn a blind eye at 'from where did the matter come?'.
 
Hello and welcome to the board,

I remember watching a movie where an atheist women yelled, "O God!" when she thought she was going to die in a crash. I always wondered about that. So my questions would be:

1. Have you ever been in a situation where you've been totally helpless, knowing no one can help you and you wondered about God, or felt compelled to believe that there is a Higher Being who has the power to save you?

2. Have you ever marvelled at the Creation and thought how could all this have created itself so perfectly?

3. Have you ever stretched your hands in front of you, wiggled your fingers and marvelled at the way you can make them move just by thinking about it and thought about the science behind it and the perfect harmony of every part that makes you and the entire Universe?

4. Again, have you ever looked at telescopes, camera lens accepting they are objects we can see with, and then marvelled at how the numerous independent processes working together to enable that lump of gooey flesh in your head to see?

5. Have you ever felt anything at all, in any way, that made you feel there is a God - but then, like the woman in the movie I might add, you continued to disbelieve?


Thank you, for the opportunity to ask these questions Datapacrat.
 
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Welcome to the board my fellow Ontarioan (and atheist). Good luck with your thread, though one really should not that any view any given atheist gives is likely to have something to it other than a lack of belief in Gods, and therefore isn't applicable to other atheists. Unlike religions, atheism simply doesn't have any meat to it. There's no dogma, no prophets, no holy texts, no beliefs at all, but just one lack thereof.

Hope your thread makes it past one page without it tailspinning to oblivion as has been the case with so many others of its type.

Thank you for the welcome, and thank you to the other welcomers. (I might not have time to respond to every post so far before I have to go run some errands, so if I don't reply to you right away, don't worry, I still plan to do so.)

You are technically right that all that really defines atheists /as/ atheists is their lack of belief in a deity. However, the rules of logic are the same for everyone; this, and the fact that we have a great deal of evidence in common with each other, such as being able to use electricity to split water into hydrogen and oxygen, allows for atheists to have a great deal more in common than just their shared lack of belief, and I hope that my particular beliefs, and my knowledge of other atheists' beliefs, will suffice to provide an overall impression of atheism.
 
1. Let's assume the Bing Bang happened at second x, why didn't it happen before or after that specific time?
2. What initiated the Bing Bang?

If atheists claim that it was caused by a chemical reaction then where did all these molecules or chemical element come from in the 1st place? Moreover, isn't it ironic that they use the question 'who created God', yet, turn a blind eye at 'from where did the matter come?'.

First, thank you for the questions. It's said that you never truly understand a subject unless you can explain it to everyone, including your own grandmother, and I relish the opportunity to refine my knowledge by figuring out how to explain it.

First, I think I need to correct a misconception you seem to be expressing - the Big Bang didn't really involve molecules at all. It was more about subatomic particles, such as the quarks that make up the protons and neutrons that make up atoms that make up chemicals. There are immense and important differences between how things work on the level of molecules and how they work on the level of quarks, and trying to imagine the Big Bang as a chemical process leads to more incorrect inferences than imagining an atom is like a bun dotted with raisin-like electrons, the way atoms were once thought of.

That said, first causes /are/ an important topic. A technically correct answer is that the Big Bang theory isn't really /about/ what came before the Bang, any more than the theory of evolution by natural selection depends on the precise nature of how life came into being in the first place. All the Big Bang theory is /really/ about is the observation that all the galaxies we can see are rushing away from each other at particular speeds, and by figuring out where they used to be, it turns out that at a particular time they used to be smooshed together in the same place. We know enough physics to describe a lot of details about that smooshing, all the way back to when everything was an extremely tiny, extremely hot, extremely energetic particle-thingy smaller than a single atom. However, as to what happened before that, or what caused that to happen, the most accurate answer is that we don't have enough evidence to distinguish between which theories are more likely to be correct than others.

/That/ said, I have a personal favorite of a theory of what happened 'before the Big Bang' and what caused it; and the reason I prefer it is because it is based on observations of a particular phenomena that happens all the time, everywhere, and thus doesn't require many additional postulations. There's a physical process called 'virtual particles', described at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle , in which, usually, a particle and its anti-particle will pop into existence out of nothingness, exist for a brief fraction of a second, and then collide with each other and vanish back into nothingness. These virtual particles are appearing in massive quantities right in the space around you, in numbers high enough that they can be detected in various ways, causing various effects, such as the Coulomb force, the magnetic field, the strong and weak nuclear forces that hold atoms together, and more. More interestingly, occasionally these particles /don't/ bump back into each other and vanish, but get separated from each other and become ordinary, long-lived particles just like any other; this is what causes Hawking radiation around black holes.

Virtual particles are an epitome of the uncaused cause - they appear unpredictably, essentially at random. In a bit of space, there will be nothing, and then, suddenly, there will be /something/. Such creation isn't a singular event in the past - it is happening all the time, all around us, and is part of normal life.

And, as the most interesting part of this... there is no theoretical limit to how much energy such uncaused virtual particles can contain. Higher-energy particles seem to appear more rarely than lower-energy ones, but it is entirely feasible that, at any moment, there will suddenly appear a virtual particle containing as much energy as is in our entire universe, which will avoid immediate collision with its counterpart, and will then go on to start expanding and breaking apart into a host of smaller particles... a process which, as far as I can tell, would be indistinguishable from the Big Bang as we know it.

I'm not saying that this /is/, definitively, how the Big Bang happened. But it's a /possible/ answer. If it's proven right, then Yay! And if it's proven wrong, then hey, it's just a theory, and there are plenty more where it came from.
 
Ello welcome....:)

What the belo says ?????

lu .iacu'i ma krinu lo du'u .ei mi krici la'e di'u li'u traji lo ka vajni fo lo preti
 
Or, if you prefer to start out by answering questions rather than asking them, then feel free to offer your answer to: "Do you think it is possible to rationally come to the conclusion of atheism? If not, why not?".

Of course it's rationally possible to come to that conclusion, just as its rationally possible to come to the opposite conclusion. As they are mutually contradictory, of course, one conclusion must be wrong but as we don't know and probably never will know the correct and complete starting premises we can't prove it either way.
 
Moreover, isn't it ironic that they use the question 'who created God', yet, turn a blind eye at 'from where did the matter come?'.
To be honest, I don't think scientists (believing or non-believing) turn a blind eye to the question of where and how the universe started - it is just that they have not found an answer yet.
That's not the same as turning a blind eye or not looking ...
 
Greetings Datapac, and glad you have found yourself alas in our CR section.

First, thank you for the questions. It's said that you never truly understand a subject unless you can explain it to everyone, including your own grandmother, and I relish the opportunity to refine my knowledge by figuring out how to explain it.
I totally agree with that.. I wish more organic chem professors back in under-grad had made that realization before taking on the painstaking task of becoming college professors.. 'tis indeed noble to teach but to do so one has to have some semblance of understanding of what it is they are talking about.
First, I think I need to correct a misconception you seem to be expressing - the Big Bang didn't really involve molecules at all. It was more about subatomic particles, such as the quarks that make up the protons and neutrons that make up atoms that make up chemicals. There are immense and important differences between how things work on the level of molecules and how they work on the level of quarks, and trying to imagine the Big Bang as a chemical process leads to more incorrect inferences than imagining an atom is like a bun dotted with raisin-like electrons, the way atoms were once thought of.
This is indeed basic physics but it is also hypothetical (and I can accept that as a theory) .. however, you speak of a matter already in existence.. and most sciences in fact can only deal with things found in the natural world and not really of their origin.

That said, first causes /are/ an important topic. A technically correct answer is that the Big Bang theory isn't really /about/ what came before the Bang, any more than the theory of evolution by natural selection depends on the precise nature of how life came into being in the first place. All the Big Bang theory is /really/ about is the observation that all the galaxies we can see are rushing away from each other at particular speeds, and by figuring out where they used to be, it turns out that at a particular time they used to be smooshed together in the same place. We know enough physics to describe a lot of details about that smooshing, all the way back to when everything was an extremely tiny, extremely hot, extremely energetic particle-thingy smaller than a single atom. However, as to what happened before that, or what caused that to happen, the most accurate answer is that we don't have enough evidence to distinguish between which theories are more likely to be correct than others.
Indeed..
/That/ said, I have a personal favorite of a theory of what happened 'before the Big Bang' and what caused it; and the reason I prefer it is because it is based on observations of a particular phenomena that happens all the time, everywhere, and thus doesn't require many additional postulations. There's a physical process called 'virtual particles', described at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle , in which, usually, a particle and its anti-particle will pop into existence out of nothingness, exist for a brief fraction of a second, and then collide with each other and vanish back into nothingness. These virtual particles are appearing in massive quantities right in the space around you, in numbers high enough that they can be detected in various ways, causing various effects, such as the Coulomb force, the magnetic field, the strong and weak nuclear forces that hold atoms together, and more. More interestingly, occasionally these particles /don't/ bump back into each other and vanish, but get separated from each other and become ordinary, long-lived particles just like any other; this is what causes Hawking radiation around black holes.
Virtual particles are an epitome of the uncaused cause - they appear unpredictably, essentially at random. In a bit of space, there will be nothing, and then, suddenly, there will be /something/. Such creation isn't a singular event in the past - it is happening all the time, all around us, and is part of normal life.

I have to admit that it has been ages since I visited physics, and I think if I have the time at some point I might invest in some DVD's from the the teaching company:
http://www.amazon.com/Physics-Your-Life-Guidebooks-Mathematics/dp/1565859383

but I am curious as to how 'virtual particles' fit in:

Radio astronomers have found the biggest hole ever seen in the universe. The void, which is nearly a billion light years across, is empty of both normal matter and dark matter. The finding challenges theories of large-scale structure formation in the universe
http://www.newscientist.com/article...in-space-is-1-billion-light-years-across.html

And, as the most interesting part of this... there is no theoretical limit to how much energy such uncaused virtual particles can contain. Higher-energy particles seem to appear more rarely than lower-energy ones, but it is entirely feasible that, at any moment, there will suddenly appear a virtual particle containing as much energy as is in our entire universe, which will avoid immediate collision with its counterpart, and will then go on to start expanding and breaking apart into a host of smaller particles... a process which, as far as I can tell, would be indistinguishable from the Big Bang as we know it.

It would be more fascinating still to render this phenomenon on a more global scale and in the formation of much larger molecules into organ systems, higher reticular function into sentient beings of different shapes and sizes stratified on a scale in what we call the circle of life..

I'm not saying that this /is/, definitively, how the Big Bang happened. But it's a /possible/ answer. If it's proven right, then Yay! And if it's proven wrong, then hey, it's just a theory, and there are plenty more where it came from.

Very true..

all the best
 
Of course it's rationally possible to come to that conclusion, just as its rationally possible to come to the opposite conclusion. As they are mutually contradictory, of course, one conclusion must be wrong but as we don't know and probably never will know the correct and complete starting premises we can't prove it either way.

I like that you wrote that as it is indeed very true.. and I always describe this as a person in a state of schizophrenia .. one exhibiting positive signs and the other negative signs.. both stand on equal grounds but how the mental distortions manifest are in completely opposite directions, though essentially both are suffering the same plight and possibly even treated with the same per protocol meds.

all the best

p.s-- Hope you are feeling better?
 
Or, if you prefer to start out by answering questions rather than asking them, then feel free to offer your answer to: "Do you think it is possible to rationally come to the conclusion of atheism? If not, why not?".
--
DataPacRat
I imagine that it easily possible to come to the conclusion that God does not exist or is not likely to exist - if you require scientifically substantiated evidence for the existence of God before you can believe in him ... (although, arguable, then it wouldn't be belief in the first place, but rather knowledge)

lu .iacu'i ma krinu lo du'u .ei mi krici la'e di'u li'u traji lo ka vajni fo lo preti
I am intrigued. Can you tell us what this means?

:)
 
Peace,
Isn't human biology interesting... Who do you think created you? Cell biology?

The creation of Allah is amazing, each protein, each ribosome, each vesicle has it's place, it's purpose and each has it's route in the build. Everything has been set and regulated magnificently in depth. Is atheism = it just is? How has cell structure been regulated so intellectually?

'It just is'?
 
Of course it's rationally possible to come to that conclusion, just as its rationally possible to come to the opposite conclusion. As they are mutually contradictory, of course, one conclusion must be wrong but as we don't know and probably never will know the correct and complete starting premises we can't prove it either way.

Good Read ....can i name it --> Trumble Theorem... :)
 
To be honest, I don't think scientists (believing or non-believing) turn a blind eye to the question of where and how the universe started - it is just that they have not found an answer yet.
That's not the same as turning a blind eye or not looking ...

Where have I mentioned scientists? Before posting that question, I searched the matter a bit. I did found some kinds of theories, which yet raised questions about the causes...
 
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do you believe there was nothing before the big bang?

how can you make an absolute statement about god not existing? something about which you have no idea. if athiesm is lack of belief then you cannot say you believe god doesnt exist.
 
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He claims that 0=0+1?

It does remind me of a previous atheist member we had who claimed that 0/0= 1 and he had an entire book built around that theory or rather I should say a pamphlet which he was very belligerent about forcing people to accept under threats and bullying stabs at their intellect.. but that was before you joined us.. his SN was Zoro.. you may research some of the old threads if you are able to find them, they were pleasantly amusing to say the least..


:w:
 
I hoped that the thread author would be Hindu, Sikh or Jewish. We really need more of those members.
 

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