Non Muslims, how do you explain the existence of the Quran/Sincerity of the Prophet?

[Insaanah]

Muslims claim they are against idol worship. The irony is that Hindus, who are well known idol worshippers, can grow out of their idol worship by moving from duality to non-duality.

Non-Duality being, if I am correct, that "Brahman is the only truth, the world is an illusion, and there is ultimately no difference between Brahman and individual self. Brahman is at best described as that infinite, omnipresent, omnipotent, incorporeal, impersonal, transcendent reality that is the divine ground of all Being."

I see you consider yourself and everything in the world divine. So you could worship anything then. Even a lump of faeces must be divine, no? Hey, you could even worship yourself!

"In the Rig Veda, Brahman gives rise to the primordial being Hiranyagarbha that is equated with the creator god Brahmā"

So your god is created; Allah isn't.

Say: He is Allah, the One!
Allah, the Eternally Besought of all!
He begetteth not nor was begotten
And there is none comparable unto Him. (Qur'an, chapter 112)

Muslims are incapable of being anything other than idol worshipers for they consider Allah to be separate from them and therefore an objective reality to their subjective reality. Idol worship is nothing other than the worship of an object (anything that is outside us, the subject, is an object). The need for worship itself ends only when the subject is discovered.

The problem is you are defining God as the only way you have been taught; a created object. You may consider your "God "to be an object. We don't. And kindly refrain from calling us idol worshippers. We are not the ones who worship in front of statues that humans have made with their own hands! Allah is Eternal, not created, He is the Creator who Created us, and we worship Him alone. We don't have a god for this and a god for that. We worship the One True All Powerful Lord of all.

The practice of standing atop the Kaaba was only at the beginning of Islam, when probably in the first flush of having destroyed the idols within the Kaaba, the Muslims wanted to express that nothing made of stone is sacred anymore. But someone obviously considered the blackstone sacred and even today is revered with a kiss and no one today stands atop the Kaaba because it houses the sacred blackstone as it once housed over 360 idols.

Bring me a quote that says it is sacred or that we worship it.

But is it not a fact that in a Hadith Mohammad said that even sex is worship if done properly?

NO.

This is precisely the position of the Hindus. Though they worship the ultimate, they have the liberty to focus their worship on tangible representations of the ultimate.

Like the ones I mentioned above in my second paragraph?

Peace.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Just to clarify, hindu's seem to bring up that point quite alot, well its false - islam was around since the first man on earth - prophet Adam and he was a muslim. The first set of beliefs and religion on earth was islamic monotheism. Islam has always been around its just been given different names because of location and because of different prophets who preached it.

I thought Islam began with Mohammad and that about makes it among the newest religions in the world. Are you, by the way, saying that Adam and Eve were Muslims? Can anyone be a Muslim without believing that Mohammad is the last prophet? Is that not why the Ahmadiyas are not considered Muslims because it is alleged that they do not believe in the finality of prophethood with Mohammad?

 

[جوري]

What about Mohammad's hair, which is venerated in a mosque in Kashmir? Would you tell me that it is not important till I quote a Hadith or a Quranic verse on its importance? When it was stolen many years back, there were major riots in Kashmir and protests in other parts of India. Fortunately it was retrieved before long and peace returned.

Muhammad (PBUH)'s hair? how did the kaqshmerians or anyone before them get their hands on that? I doubt very much that anyone has the messengers hair.. just myth like the shroud of turin!
indeed, if it isn't in the kitab and sunnah then it has no importance, that is in fact how you should loan your opinions credence no?.. frankly this is the first time I have even heard of this.. Islam doesn't rest on silly relics and articles of clothing..

funny stuff though..

all the best

 

[Zafran]

I thought Islam began with Mohammad and that about makes it among the newest religions in the world. Are you, by the way, saying that Adam and Eve were Muslims? Can anyone be a Muslim without believing that Mohammad is the last prophet? Is that not why the Ahmadiyas are not considered Muslims because it is alleged that they do not believe in the finality of prophethood with Mohammad?

Salaam

Islam is the oldest religion - It was the religion of Adam pbuh - all the rest is preety irrelevent. Islam is based on the speech of God which is the Quran - To deny any part of it such as the finality of the prophet is kufr.

peace

 

[Salahudeen]

What about Mohammad's hair, which is venerated in a mosque in Kashmir? Would you tell me that it is not important till I quote a Hadith or a Quranic verse on its importance? When it was stolen many years back, there were major riots in Kashmir and protests in other parts of India. Fortunately it was retrieved before long and peace returned.

So what? Just because a Muslim does a certain act doesn't mean Islam condones it and approves of it. Our religion is what's in the Qur'an and authentic hadith. So don't bring us the actions of people. The sources for our religion are the Qur'an and authentic sunnah.

If you say something is apart of this religion of Islam then you should prove it with the Qur'an and sunnah. And then listen to the explanation

A

 

[cat eyes]

Lily considers cow dung to be about the worst thing that can happen to anyone, never mind Bhakti's exposition on its medicinal value. I wonder if he is aware that Mohammad had highly recommended camel’s urine for its medicinal properties. Similarly, Muslims condemn idol worship but are unable to explain why Mohammad kissed the black stone in Kaaba and even today Muslims follow suit when they visit Mecca. Many of the rituals followed in Mecca during the Hajj are done at no other mosque anywhere in the world at any time but at every Hindu temple all over the world every day. It would only be fair that Muslims respect Hinduism a bit more for, if nothing, Hinduism is an older religion than Islam. Is it not a tradition in the East to respect the elders?

when people kiss that stone there not worshiping it. have u ever witnessed any one bowing down to that stone??

we muslims don't believe this stone is Allah like how your people believe blue dolls with 8arms are gods.

 

[aadil77]

I thought Islam began with Mohammad and that about makes it among the newest religions in the world. Are you, by the way, saying that Adam and Eve were Muslims? Can anyone be a Muslim without believing that Mohammad is the last prophet? Is that not why the Ahmadiyas are not considered Muslims because it is alleged that they do not believe in the finality of prophethood with Mohammad?

The religion of Allah on earth began with the first man created - prophet Adam, prophet Adam and Hawa (Eve) were obviously muslims - they submitted themselves to god. You are a muslim by following the Law of Allah revealed to you at the time of any prophet, so if you were around at the time of prophet Jesus - to be true believer you'd have to accept him and all previous prophets as messengers of Allah.

Allah has introduced new laws as prophets have come and gone, with prophet Muhammad we have to accept him as the last and final messenger because that is the Law of Allah, laws can be added but the religion of Allah is still the same

 

[K.Venugopal]

The religion of Allah on earth began with the first man created - prophet Adam, prophet Adam and Hawa (Eve) were obviously muslims - they submitted themselves to god. You are a muslim by following the Law of Allah revealed to you at the time of any prophet, so if you were around at the time of prophet Jesus - to be true believer you'd have to accept him and all previous prophets as messengers of Allah.

Allah has introduced new laws as prophets have come and gone, with prophet Muhammad we have to accept him as the last and final messenger because that is the Law of Allah, laws can be added but the religion of Allah is still the same

You are saying that after Mohammad came there is no religion valid except Islam. It appears that Allah decided to send the Quran because all the previous scriptures He sent became corrupted either because of Allah's incompetence or because man decided to add or subtract from those scriptures. Finally Allah has said that anyone who does not follow His last scripture will be punished. Could Allah not have made His creatures accept His scriptures without fear of punishment or desire of rewards?

 

[K.Venugopal]

when people kiss that stone there not worshiping it. have u ever witnessed any one bowing down to that stone??

we muslims don't believe this stone is Allah like how your people believe blue dolls with 8arms are gods

You keep saying that you don't worship anything but Allah. But you appear to be needing innumerable conditions to worship Allah, right from a particular direction to a particular format. The logic is that if the worship is nothing other than Allah, then directly worshiping Him without any conditions would be the order. But of course, all of us need many aids towards worship because we are all in a limited body with limited senses. However, the aids that Muslims use, including the carpet, the looking into their own palms are valid but when Hindus use similar aids, including "dolls", that is condemned. We are all in one boat. The only people who are on shore are those who do not see God outside them but one with their own consciousness. Such people do not need worship at all. Hinduism is home to those who have reached the shore.

 

[Tyrion]

You keep saying that you don't worship anything but Allah. But you appear to be needing innumerable conditions to worship Allah, right from a particular direction to a particular format. The logic is that if the worship is nothing other than Allah, then directly worshiping Him without any conditions would be the order. But of course, all of us need many aids towards worship because we are all in a limited body with limited senses. However, the aids that Muslims use, including the carpet, the looking into their own palms are valid but when Hindus use similar aids, including "dolls", that is condemned. We are all in one boat. The only people who are on shore are those who do not see God outside them but one with their own consciousness. Such people do not need worship at all. Hinduism is home to those who have reached the shore.

Just thought I'd drop by and remind you guys that the original question was why exactly you reject Islam, the Qur'an, and The prophet-hood of Muhammad. I'd appreciate it if we could end the Hinduism vs. Islam debate that's going on, since it really doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Perhaps you could make a new thread if you really want to continue debating, but I think it's best if we go back to the original question. Thanks.

 

[K.Venugopal]

So what? Just because a Muslim does a certain act doesn't mean Islam condones it and approves of it. Our religion is what's in the Qur'an and authentic hadith. So don't bring us the actions of people. The sources for our religion are the Qur'an and authentic sunnah.

If you say something is apart of this religion of Islam then you should prove it with the Qur'an and sunnah. And then listen to the explanation

I think your position, which I am aware is the position of most Muslims, is indeed fair. But when I read the Quran I notice that in every alternate page there's Allah either bragging (sorry for using this word but I think it is apt) about His prowess or threatening us with punishment if we do not follow Him. What violence in a book of peace, I have often wondered. And Allah seems to have limited Himself to the Quran for there are no other scriptures wherein the voice of Allah is heard, regardless of the claim of the Muslims that Allah sent down all the previous scriptures. And sadly, Allah stopped speaking after the 7th century. The bottom-line is, if you want to hear Allah, listen to the Quran. Nowhere else will you hear Him. Thus I say that Allah has been confined to the Quran. A very unlikely situation for God.

 

[Hiroshi]

The religion of Allah on earth began with the first man created - prophet Adam, prophet Adam and Hawa (Eve) were obviously muslims - they submitted themselves to god.

Weren't they created first in heaven and then sent to the earth as punishment after sinning? I guess you must believe that there are animals in heaven because Adam was speaking the names of all the animals before he sinned, right?

 

[K.Venugopal]

Weren't they created first in heaven and then sent to the earth as punishment after sinning? I guess you must believe that there are animals in heaven because Adam was speaking the names of all the animals before he sinned, right?

Was the Garden of Eden in heaven?

 

[aadil77]

You are saying that after Mohammad came there is no religion valid except Islam. It appears that Allah decided to send the Quran because all the previous scriptures He sent became corrupted either because of Allah's incompetence or because man decided to add or subtract from those scriptures.

Because man altered them, by Allahs will

Finally Allah has said that anyone who does not follow His last scripture will be punished. Could Allah not have made His creatures accept His scriptures without fear of punishment or desire of rewards

What do you think? human nature is we'll usually only to do things if there are consequences of our actions,

this is why you hardly get any practicing christians today - apparently they're already forgiven for their sins for they don't fear any punishment of god

 

[aadil77]

Weren't they created first in heaven and then sent to the earth as punishment after sinning?

yh so?

I guess you must believe that there are animals in heaven because Adam was speaking the names of all the animals before he sinned, right?

what are you talking about?

 

[aadil77]

Was the Garden of Eden in heaven?

yes, it still is

 

[Hiroshi]

Was the Garden of Eden in heaven?

I'm not sure of Islamic teaching here which is why I asked the question. According to the Bible, of course, the Garden of Eden, and Adam and Eve, were always on earth.

Maybe Islam teaches that the Garden of Eden was in heaven and that Adam went there after giving the names of the animals. Then he returned to earth (with Eve) as a penalty for sinning.

 

[Hiroshi]

yes, it still is

Thanks for explaining.

 

[aadil77]

You keep saying that you don't worship anything but Allah. But you appear to be needing innumerable conditions to worship Allah, right from a particular direction to a particular format. The logic is that if the worship is nothing other than Allah, then directly worshiping Him without any conditions would be the order. But of course, all of us need many aids towards worship because we are all in a limited body with limited senses. However, the aids that Muslims use, including the carpet, the looking into their own palms are valid but when Hindus use similar aids, including "dolls", that is condemned. We are all in one boat. The only people who are on shore are those who do not see God outside them but one with their own consciousness. Such people do not need worship at all. Hinduism is home to those who have reached the shore.

Those conditions are set by Him, the logic is when the Creator gives you a way of worshipping Him - thats what He has commanded and thats what you've got to follow

the carpet has nothing to do with islam other than praying on a clean place, you could pray on a sheet of paper if you wanted to,

'looking into their own palms' - I'm assuming you're talking about du'a, your hands are no 'aid' or idols, you can do du'a without raising your hands if you want

 

[Hiroshi]

what are you talking about?

On the first post on the thread "Bible vs Qur'an ... etc." Al-manar wrote:

"Unlike the Quran that views Adam as been taught the names of everything by God, the bible would view Adam as the one who chose the names of the creatures!"

This in reference, I believe, to Surah 2:33-34.