"Questions for Jehovah Witnesses"

[Hiroshi]

Fine, but you didn't really answer my question. (Or, maybe in your mind it does, but I don't yet understand how it does.)

I didn't say that you said we are all given a soul. I want to know if we are all born with a soul? Or are we all born as souls? And can you explain the difference between those two statements? Thanks.

Yes, humans are born as souls. Animals are also born as souls. Revelation 16:3 KJV says: "every living soul died in the sea" referring to sea creatures.

If you say that we are "born with a soul" it gives the impression that we are made up of two parts: body and soul. This is not the picture that the Bible gives. Rather, it refers to the soul as the whole person.

 

[Hiroshi]

For the purpose of pointing something out. Let us assume that Humans do not have an immortal soul. Now based on that assumption at death we are totally obliterated, but at the resurrection the righteous are recreated in an immortal form. Now I agree that God(swt) can do anything so for sake of argument let us assume that is correct.

Now the peroblem I see with that is how are they both the same person as you are stating they are 2 separate creations and not even identical except in terms of memory. They are 2 separate beings, existing at 2 different times. By definition they are not the same being. You are alleging that 2 separate creations are the same creation. While God(swt) can do anything, there are statements and thoughts we humans make/have that are utter nonsense and actually have nothing to do with the abilities of God(swt). This seems to be such a statement. In no way would they be the same as there is no continuity. This makes as much sense as saying God(swt) can draw a triangle, erase it and redraw it as a circle and have it be the same triangle that was erased. Nonsensical statements are not an indication of the limitless power of God(swt). It is not that God(swt) can not do something, it is a simple fact we humans can think of non-things and ascribe them as being something that God(swt) can/can't do. That is in the same realm as saying God(swt) can create another God(swt) who would be the only God(swt) eternal with no begining having always been, always will be and was not created nor born. It is utter nonsense to even contemplate the thought.

Okay. I assume that you believe that animals do not have immortal souls. Based on what you say here then, it would be completely impossible for God ever to restore an animal to life. Is this correct?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Yes, humans are born as souls. Animals are also born as souls. Revelation 16:3 KJV says: "every living soul died in the sea" referring to sea creatures.

If you say that we are "born with a soul" it gives the impression that we are made up of two parts: body and soul. This is not the picture that the Bible gives. Rather, it refers to the soul as the whole person.

Are soul and body, therefore, to be understood as inseparable?

 

[Hiroshi]

As stated perhaps you can show me where I have said something at odds with Sr. Insaanah without adding your own spin to either meaning!
I expect a quote from my person, juxtaposed on one of hers with you pointing out the disparate and gross errors!

all the best

Look, what exactly are we arguing about here? We both agree that "nafs" in Arabic means "soul" in the sense of the self or the person, right? That is all that I have been saying all along. I don't follow everything that you say and I really don't see what the problem is.

 

[جوري]

Look, what exactly are we arguing about here? We both agree that "nafs" in Arabic means "soul" in the sense of the self or the person, right? That is all that I have been saying all along. I don't follow everything that you say and I really don't see what the problem is.

I never agreed with you that nafs = soul. go back and look at the extensive definitions given as well the link provided you.
You don't see a problem, yet you have raised the problem and are unable to extricate yourself from your erroneous beliefs at least as far as Islam is concerned, insist on bull, and when all else fails, come a few pages later and decide that two Muslim members are at odds, yet unable to evince it from what has been written by both members.

If you can't follow and don't understand, then don't cover it all with nonsense with hopes that someone won't go double check it!

all the best

 

[Hiroshi]

I never agreed with you that nafs = soul.

Well, again and again the English versions of the Qur'an translate "nafs" as "soul". So how is that?

 

[جوري]

Well, again and again the English versions of the Qur'an translate "nafs" as "soul". So how is that?

Take that out with those said translators not a native Arabic speaker!

all the best

 

[جوري]

here is wiki if the Arabic sites weren't to your fancy:

Nafs

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Nafs is an Arabic word derived from the Hebrew word "Nefesh" נפש occurring in the Qur'an meaning self, psyche,[1] ego or soul. In its unrefined state, "the ego (nafs) is the lowest dimension of man's inward existence, his animal and satanic nature."[2] Nafs is an important concept in the Islamic tradition, especially within Sufism and the discipline of gnosis (Irfan) in Shia Islam.
Contents

[hide]

• 1 Three principal stages of nafs
  • 1.1 The inciting nafs (nafs-i-ammara)
  • 1.2 The self-accusing nafs (nafs-i-lawwama)
  • 1.3 The nafs at peace (nafs-i-mutma'inna)
• 2 Four additional stages of nafs
  • 2.1 The inspired nafs (nafs-i-mulhama)
  • 2.2 The pleased nafs (nafs-i-radiyya)
  • 2.3 The pleasing nafs (nafs-i-mardiyya)
  • 2.4 The pure nafs (nafs-i-safiyya)
• 3 Characteristics of nafs
• 4 See also
• 5 Notes
• 6 References
• 7 External links

[edit] Three principal stages of nafs

There are three principal stages of nafs which are specifically mentioned in the Qur'an. They are stages in the process of development, refinement and mastery of the nafs.[3][4]
[edit] The inciting nafs (nafs-i-ammara)

In its primitive stage the nafs incites us to commit evil: this is the nafs as the lower self, the base instincts.[5] In the eponymous Sura of the Qur’an, the prophet Joseph says "Yet I claim not that my nafs was innocent: Verily the nafs of man incites to evil."[Qur'an 12:53] Here he is explaining the circumstances in which he came to be falsely imprisoned for the supposed seduction of Zuleika.
Islam emphasises the importance of fighting nafs because the prophet Muhammad said after returning from a war, "We now return from the small struggle (Jihad Asghar) to the big struggle (Jihad Akbar)". His companions asked, "Oh prophet of God, what is the big struggle?" He replied, "The struggle against nafs."[6]
The Qur'an enjoins the faithful "to hinder the nafs from lust",[Qur'an 79:40] and another hadith warns that "the worst enemy you have is [the nafs] between your sides."[7] Rumi warns of the nafs in its guise of religious hypocrisy, saying "the nafs has a rosary and a Koran in its right hand, and a scimitar and dagger in the sleeve."[8]
Animal imagery is often used to describe the nafs. A popular image is a donkey or unruly horse that must be trained and broken so that eventually it will bear its rider to the goal.[9] Rumi compares the nafs to a camel which the hero Majnun, representing the intellect ('Aql), strains to turn in the direction of the dwelling-place of his beloved.[8]
[edit] The self-accusing nafs (nafs-i-lawwama)

In Sura al-Qiyama the Qur'an mentions "the self-accusing nafs".[Qur'an 75:2] This is the stage where "the conscience is awakened and the self accuses one for listening to one’s ego. One repents and asks for forgiveness."[10] Here the nafs is inspired by your heart, sees the results of your actions, agrees with your brain, sees your weaknesses, and aspires to perfection.
[edit] The nafs at peace (nafs-i-mutma'inna)

In Sura al-Fajr the Qur'an mentions "the nafs at peace".[Qur'an 89:27] This is the ideal stage of ego for Sufis. On this level one is firm in one’s faith and leaves bad manners behind.[10] The soul becomes tranquil, at peace.[10] At this stage Sufis have relieved themselves of all materialism and worldly problems and are satisfied with the will of God.
[edit] Four additional stages of nafs

In addition to the three principal stages, another four are sometimes cited:
[edit] The inspired nafs (nafs-i-mulhama)

This stage comes between the 2nd and 3rd principal stages. It is the stage of action. On this level "one becomes more firm in listening to one’s conscience, but is not yet surrendered."[10] Once you have seen your weaknesses and have set your targets, this ego inspires you to do good deeds and to be on the plus side. The Sufis say that it is important that whenever you think of good, you must immediately act upon it. Abbas Bin Abdul Muttalib lays down three rules:[citation needed]

1. Ta'Jeel or Swiftness. A good deed must be done immediately and there should be no laziness.
2. Tehqeer or Contempt. You must look at your good acts with contempt otherwise you will become self-righteous.
3. Ikhfa or Secrecy. You must keep your good acts secret otherwise people will praise you and it will make you self-righteous.

According to the Qur'an, charity should be given both secretly and openly. In Muhammad Asad's translation of the Qur'an, 14:31 reads: "[And] tell [those of] My servants who have attained to faith that they should be constant in prayer and spend [in Our way], secretly and openly, out of what We provide for them as sustenance, ere there come a Day when there will be no bargaining, and no mutual befriending."
[edit] The pleased nafs (nafs-i-radiyya)

The stage comes after the 3rd principal stage. On this level "one is pleased with whatever comes from Allah and doesn’t live in the past or future, but in the moment."[10] "One thinks always: ‘Ilahi Anta Maqsudi wa ridhaka matlubi’. One always sees oneself as weak and in need of Allah."[10]
[edit] The pleasing nafs (nafs-i-mardiyya)

On this level the two Ruhs in man "have made peace".[10] "One is soft and tolerant with people and has good Akhlak, good manners."[10]
[edit] The pure nafs (nafs-i-safiyya)

On this level "one is dressed in the attributes of the Insan Kamil, the perfected man, who is completely surrendered and inspired by Allah."[10] One is "in full agreement with the Will of Allah".[10]
[edit] Characteristics of nafs

In its primitive state the nafs has seven heads that must be defeated:[citation needed]

1. False pride (Takabbur)
2. Greed (Hirs)
3. Envy (Hasad)
4. Lust (Shahwah)
5. Backbiting (Gheebah)
6. Stinginess (Bokhl)
7. Malice (Keena)

[edit] See also

• Twelver
• Shia Islam
• Irfan
• Sufism
• Islamic psychological thought
• Lataif-e-sitta
• Qalb
• Ruh

[edit] Notes

• ^ Nurdeen Deuraseh and Mansor Abu Talib (2005), "Mental health in Islamic medical tradition", The International Medical Journal 4 (2), p. 76-79
• ^ Chittick, William (1983). The Sufi Path of Love. State University of New York Press. p. 12. ISBN 0-87395-724-5.
• ^ Shah, Idries (2001). The Sufis. London, UK: Octagon Press. pp. 394–395. ISBN 0-863040-20-9.
• ^ Frager, Robert (1999). Heart, Self and Soul. Quest Books. pp. 54–88. ISBN 0-8356-0778-X. An imprint of the Theosophical Publishing House.
• ^ Schimmel, Annemarie (1975). Mystical Dimensions of Islam. University of South Carolina Press. pp. 112–114.
• ^ Kabbani, Hisham. "Jihad Al Akbar". http://www.***********/tasawwuf/jihad004.html. Retrieved 17 January 2010.
• ^ Nicholson, Reynold Alleyne (2008). The Kitab Al-Luma Fi L-Tasawwuf Of Abu Nasr Abdallah B. Ali Al-Sarraj Al-Tusi: Edited For The First Time, With Critical Notes And Abstract (1914) by Reynold Alleyne Nicholson. Kessinger Publishing.
• ^ a b Nicholson, Reynold (1990). Mathnawi of Jalaluddin Rumi. Warminster: Gibb Memorial Trust. ISBN 0906094275.
• ^ Nicholson, Reynold (2008). The Kashf Al-Mahjub: The Oldest Persian Treatise On Sufism (1911). Kessinger Publishing. ISBN 0548941068.
• ^ a b c d e f g h i j Al-Haqqani, Shaykh Adil; Kabbani, Shaykh Hisham (2004). The Path to Spiritual Excellence. Islamic Supreme Council of America (ISCA). pp. 102–103. ISBN 1-930409-18-4. See google book search

[edit] References


all the best

 

[Hiroshi]

It does.

"And call not those who are slain in the way of Allah "dead." Nay, they are living, only ye perceive not." (2:154)

"Think not of those, who are slain in the way of Allah, as dead. Nay, they are living. With their Lord they have provision.

Jubilant (are they) because of that which Allah hath bestowed upon them of His bounty, rejoicing for the sake of those who have not joined them but are left behind: That there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

They rejoice because of favour from Allah and kindness, and that Allah wasteth not the wage of the believers." (3:169-171)



Yes. See above also.

Peace.

You are wrong.

Surah al anfal (50-54) and surah al an'am (93-94)

My thanks to both of you clever people for your research here. I was about to go away with the wrong idea but now I see that the Qur'an does teach that the dead are conscious before they are resurrected.

Insaanah, Surah 6:93 cited here has the word: "anfusakumu" for "souls". I would say then that this is surely an instance where the plural form of "nafs" means "spirits". Is that right?

Also, why do the angels in Surah 8:50 tell the kafar unbelievers: "Taste the penalty of the blazing Fire" when they are not in hell yet?

 

[Hiroshi]

here is wiki if the Arabic sites weren't to your fancy:

Nafs

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Nafs is an Arabic word derived from the Hebrew word "Nefesh" נפש occurring in the Qur'an meaning self, psyche,[1] ego or soul. In its unrefined state, "the ego (nafs) is the lowest dimension of man's inward existence, his animal and satanic nature."[2] Nafs is an important concept in the Islamic tradition, especially within Sufism and the discipline of gnosis (Irfan) in Shia Islam.
Contents

My thanks to you also.

 

[جوري]

Also, why do the angels in Surah 8:50 tell the kafar unbelievers: "Taste the penalty of the blazing Fire" when they are not in hell yet?

You have heard of punishment in the grave? If you have questions about Islam then why pose yourself as someone who has knowledge of and coming to enlighten us of our own religion?

all the best


The First Night In The Grave


Prepared by JIMAS

(Fathul Baaree of Ibn Hajr, 3/233): "He sufficed with affirming its existence, in contrast to those who totally deny it from the Khawaarij and some of the Mu'tazilah such as Diraar ibn 'Amr and Bishr al Mareesee and those who agree with them. And they are opposed in that by most of the Mu'tazilah and all of Ahlus-Sunnah and others"
The Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) said, "The souls of the Believers are inside green birds in the trees of Paradise until Allaah returns them to their bodies on the Day of Resurrection." [Saheeh: At-Tabraanee in 'al kabeer' from Ka'b ibn Maalik & Umm Mubashshir.]
The Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) said, "Seek Allaah's protection from the Punishment of the Grave, since punishment of the Grave is a fact/true." [Saheeh: At-Tabraanee in 'al-Kabeer' from Umm Khaalid bint Khaalid ibn Sa'eed ibn al-'Aas.]
The Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) said, "Everyone who dies - then his actions are sealed except for the one guarding the border in the way of Allaah - his actions continue to increase for him until the Day of Resurrection and he is saved from the trials of the Grave." [Saheeh: Abu Dawud, at-Tirmidhee, al-Haakim: from Fadaalah ibn 'Ubaid & Ahmad from 'Uqbah ibn 'Aamir.]
The Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) said, "Verily the grave is the first stopping place for the Hereafter; so if he is saved therein, then what comes after is easier than it. And if he is not saved therefrom, then that which comes after is harder." [Hasan: At-Tirmidhee, Ibn Maajah, al-Haakim: from 'Uthmaan.]
The Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) said, "When the dead person is buried two black-blue angels come to him, one called al-Munkar and the other called an-Nakeer, and they say to him: 'What had you used to say about this man?' So he says what he used to say: 'Allaah's slave and His Messenger, I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except Allaah and that Muhammad is His slave and Messenger.' So they say: 'Verily we knew that you (would) say that.' Then his grave is widened for him to the extent of seventy cubits by seventy, then it is made light for him, then it is said: ' Sleep.' So he says: 'I should go to my family and inform them.' So they say: 'Sleep as the newly married sleeps whom no-one awakes except his favourite wife.' Until Allaah raises him up from that place of sleep. And if he is a hypocrite (munaafiq), he says: 'I heard the people saying something so I said it too, I don't know.' So they say: 'We knew that you (would) say that.' So it is said to
the earth: 'Crush him', so he is crushed until his cross over and he remains in the state of torture until Allaah raises him up from that resting place." [Hasan: At-Tirmidhee from Abu Hurairah.]
The Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) said, "When a human being is laid in his grave and his companions return and he even hears their footsteps, two angels come to him and make him sit and ask him: What did you used to say about this man, Muhammad? He will say: I testify that he is Allaah's slave and His Apostle. Then it will be said to him, 'Look at your place in the Hell-Fire. Allaah has changed for you a place in Paradise instead of it.' The Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) added, "The dead person will see both his places. But a non-believer or a hypocrite will say to the angels, 'I do not know, but I used to say what the people used to say! It will be said to him, 'neither did you know nor did you take the guidance (by reciting the Qur'aan).' Then he will be hit with an iron hammer between his ears, and he will cry and that cry will be heard by whatever approaches him except human beings and jinns." [Saheeh: Al-Bukhaaree (2/422), Muslim, Ahmad, Abu Daud, an-Nasaa.ee: from Anas.]
Al-Baraa b. 'Azib said: We went out with the Prophet of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) accompanying the bier of a man of the Ansar. When he reached his grave, it was not yet dug. So the Prophet of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) sat down and we also sat down around him as if birds were over our heads. He had in his hand a stick by which he was scratching the ground. He then raised his head and said: Seek refuge in Allaah from the punishment of the grave. He said it twice or thrice. The version of Jarir adds here: He hears the beat of their sandals when they go back, and at that moment he asked: O so and so! Who is your Lord, what is your religion, and who is your Prophet? Hannad's version has: Two angels will come to him, make him sit up, and ask him: Who is your Lord? He will reply: My Lord is Allaah. They will ask him: What is your religion? He will reply: My religion is Islaam. They will ask him: What is your opinion about the man who was sent on a mission among you? He will reply: He is the Apostle of Allaah. They will ask: Who made you aware of this? He will reply: I read Allaah's Book, believed in it, and considered it true, which is verified by Allaah's word: "Allaah establishes those who believe with the word that stands firm in this world and the next." The agreed version goes: Then a crier will call from the heaven: My servant has spoken the truth, so spread a bed for him from Paradise, clothe him in Paradise, and open a door for him into Paradise. So some of its air and perfume will come to him, and a space will be made for him as far as the eye can see. He also mentioned the death of the infidel, saying: His spirit will be restored to his body, two angels will come to him, make him sit up and ask him: Who is your Lord? He will reply: Alas, alas! I do not know. They will ask him: What is your religion? He will reply: Alas, alas! I do not know. They will ask: Who is this man who was sent on a mission among you? He will reply: Alas, alas! I do not know. Then a crier will call from the heaven: He has lied, so spread a bed for him from Hell, clothe him from Hell and open for him a door into Hell. Then some of its heat and pestilential wind will come to him, and his grave will become restricted, so his ribs will be pressed together. Jarir's version adds: One who is blind and dumb will then be placed in charge of him, having a sledge hammer such that if a mountain were struck with it, it would become dust. He will give him a blow with it which will be heard by everything between the east and the west except by men and jinn, and he will become dust. Then his spirit will be restored to him. [Saheeh: Ahmad, Abu Dawud (3/4735) Ibn Khuzaimah, al-Haakim, al-Baihaqee in 'Shu'ab ul-Imaan', ad-Diyaa: from al-Baraa.]
The Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) said, "...the righteous man sits in his grave and is not alarmed or afraid, then it is said to him (by angels): 'In (what state) were you?' So he says: 'In the (state of) Islaam.' So it is said to him: 'What is this man?' So he says: 'Muhammad the Messenger of Allaah who came to us with clear signs from Allaah, so we believed that.' Then it is said to him: 'Have you seen Allaah?' So he says: 'It does not behove any man that he sees Allaah.' So an opening is made for him in the direction of the Fire, so he sees it, some parts of it smashing into others, and it is said to him: 'Look at what Allaah, the Exalted, has saved you from.' Then an opening is made for him in the direction of Paradise, and he looks to its brilliance and what is therein and it is said to him: 'This is your place.' And it is said to him: 'You were upon certain Faith and died upon it and upon it you will be raised up, if Allaah wills.' And the wicked man sits in his grave alarmed and terrified and so it is said to him: 'In what state were you?' So he says: 'I do not know.' So it is said to him: 'Who is this man?' So he says: 'I heard the people saying something so I said it!' So an opening is made for him in the direction of Paradise and he sees its brilliance and what is therein, and it is said to him: 'Look at what Allaah has refused you.' Then an opening is made for him in the direction of the Fire, so he sees it crashing against itself and it is said: 'This is your place, you lived upon doubt and died upon it and you will be raised up upon it, if it is Allaah's will." [Saheeh: Ibn Maajah from Abu Hurairah.]

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http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=603

 

[Woodrow]

Okay. I assume that you believe that animals do not have immortal souls. Based on what you say here then, it would be completely impossible for God ever to restore an animal to life. Is this correct?

Not a question of impossible or possible for God(swt) to do. Again it is a statement that eliminates itself by it's own definition. When something is completely obliterated it no longer exists. A dead animal no longer exists as an animal, it is simply a pile of various organic compounds until those are absorbed into the earth and recycled as soil. It is not a resurrection it is a creation or recreation, but because of the lose of continuity it is not the same animal, no matter if it is an exact replica of the same creature, it is still a new creature.

What differentiates man from beast if both are "souls"? Why is it permitted to eat the flesh of our fellow earthly travelers if they and us are both "souls"?

 

[Grace Seeker]

If I may use an analogy to portray what I think Woodrow is saying here. Suppose that one owns a beautiful 1957 Chevy in mint condition, just as it came off of the assembly line. Sadly, the car is stolen, taken to a junk yard where it is disassembled and sold for scrap. Now the manufacturer buys the scrap metal, melts it down and produces a brand new car that is a perfect remake of that original 1957 Chevy. Despite all of the pieces going into being from the original, and despite the car looking exactly the same, it still isn't going to be a 1957 Chevy, but just a remake. It isn't the same thing, the original is gone and lost forever, never to be again because it was obliterated. That's what that the term "obliterated" means. If what is produced later is the same as the original, then the original was never obliterated but somehow continued to exist.

 

[Hiroshi]

You have heard of punishment in the grave? If you have questions about Islam then why pose yourself as someone who has knowledge of and coming to enlighten us of our own religion?

all the best


The First Night In The Grave


Prepared by JIMAS

(Fathul Baaree of Ibn Hajr, 3/233): "He sufficed with affirming its existence, in contrast to those who totally deny it from the Khawaarij and some of the Mu'tazilah such as Diraar ibn 'Amr and Bishr al Mareesee and those who agree with them. And they are opposed in that by most of the Mu'tazilah and all of Ahlus-Sunnah and others"
The Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) said, "The souls of the Believers are inside green birds in the trees of Paradise until Allaah returns them to their bodies on the Day of Resurrection." [Saheeh: At-Tabraanee in 'al kabeer' from Ka'b ibn Maalik & Umm Mubashshir.]
The Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) said, "Seek Allaah's protection from the Punishment of the Grave, since punishment of the Grave is a fact/true." [Saheeh: At-Tabraanee in 'al-Kabeer' from Umm Khaalid bint Khaalid ibn Sa'eed ibn al-'Aas.]
The Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) said, "Everyone who dies - then his actions are sealed except for the one guarding the border in the way of Allaah - his actions continue to increase for him until the Day of Resurrection and he is saved from the trials of the Grave." [Saheeh: Abu Dawud, at-Tirmidhee, al-Haakim: from Fadaalah ibn 'Ubaid & Ahmad from 'Uqbah ibn 'Aamir.]
The Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) said, "Verily the grave is the first stopping place for the Hereafter; so if he is saved therein, then what comes after is easier than it. And if he is not saved therefrom, then that which comes after is harder." [Hasan: At-Tirmidhee, Ibn Maajah, al-Haakim: from 'Uthmaan.]
The Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) said, "When the dead person is buried two black-blue angels come to him, one called al-Munkar and the other called an-Nakeer, and they say to him: 'What had you used to say about this man?' So he says what he used to say: 'Allaah's slave and His Messenger, I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except Allaah and that Muhammad is His slave and Messenger.' So they say: 'Verily we knew that you (would) say that.' Then his grave is widened for him to the extent of seventy cubits by seventy, then it is made light for him, then it is said: ' Sleep.' So he says: 'I should go to my family and inform them.' So they say: 'Sleep as the newly married sleeps whom no-one awakes except his favourite wife.' Until Allaah raises him up from that place of sleep. And if he is a hypocrite (munaafiq), he says: 'I heard the people saying something so I said it too, I don't know.' So they say: 'We knew that you (would) say that.' So it is said to
the earth: 'Crush him', so he is crushed until his cross over and he remains in the state of torture until Allaah raises him up from that resting place." [Hasan: At-Tirmidhee from Abu Hurairah.]
The Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) said, "When a human being is laid in his grave and his companions return and he even hears their footsteps, two angels come to him and make him sit and ask him: What did you used to say about this man, Muhammad? He will say: I testify that he is Allaah's slave and His Apostle. Then it will be said to him, 'Look at your place in the Hell-Fire. Allaah has changed for you a place in Paradise instead of it.' The Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) added, "The dead person will see both his places. But a non-believer or a hypocrite will say to the angels, 'I do not know, but I used to say what the people used to say! It will be said to him, 'neither did you know nor did you take the guidance (by reciting the Qur'aan).' Then he will be hit with an iron hammer between his ears, and he will cry and that cry will be heard by whatever approaches him except human beings and jinns." [Saheeh: Al-Bukhaaree (2/422), Muslim, Ahmad, Abu Daud, an-Nasaa.ee: from Anas.]
Al-Baraa b. 'Azib said: We went out with the Prophet of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) accompanying the bier of a man of the Ansar. When he reached his grave, it was not yet dug. So the Prophet of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) sat down and we also sat down around him as if birds were over our heads. He had in his hand a stick by which he was scratching the ground. He then raised his head and said: Seek refuge in Allaah from the punishment of the grave. He said it twice or thrice. The version of Jarir adds here: He hears the beat of their sandals when they go back, and at that moment he asked: O so and so! Who is your Lord, what is your religion, and who is your Prophet? Hannad's version has: Two angels will come to him, make him sit up, and ask him: Who is your Lord? He will reply: My Lord is Allaah. They will ask him: What is your religion? He will reply: My religion is Islaam. They will ask him: What is your opinion about the man who was sent on a mission among you? He will reply: He is the Apostle of Allaah. They will ask: Who made you aware of this? He will reply: I read Allaah's Book, believed in it, and considered it true, which is verified by Allaah's word: "Allaah establishes those who believe with the word that stands firm in this world and the next." The agreed version goes: Then a crier will call from the heaven: My servant has spoken the truth, so spread a bed for him from Paradise, clothe him in Paradise, and open a door for him into Paradise. So some of its air and perfume will come to him, and a space will be made for him as far as the eye can see. He also mentioned the death of the infidel, saying: His spirit will be restored to his body, two angels will come to him, make him sit up and ask him: Who is your Lord? He will reply: Alas, alas! I do not know. They will ask him: What is your religion? He will reply: Alas, alas! I do not know. They will ask: Who is this man who was sent on a mission among you? He will reply: Alas, alas! I do not know. Then a crier will call from the heaven: He has lied, so spread a bed for him from Hell, clothe him from Hell and open for him a door into Hell. Then some of its heat and pestilential wind will come to him, and his grave will become restricted, so his ribs will be pressed together. Jarir's version adds: One who is blind and dumb will then be placed in charge of him, having a sledge hammer such that if a mountain were struck with it, it would become dust. He will give him a blow with it which will be heard by everything between the east and the west except by men and jinn, and he will become dust. Then his spirit will be restored to him. [Saheeh: Ahmad, Abu Dawud (3/4735) Ibn Khuzaimah, al-Haakim, al-Baihaqee in 'Shu'ab ul-Imaan', ad-Diyaa: from al-Baraa.]
The Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) said, "...the righteous man sits in his grave and is not alarmed or afraid, then it is said to him (by angels): 'In (what state) were you?' So he says: 'In the (state of) Islaam.' So it is said to him: 'What is this man?' So he says: 'Muhammad the Messenger of Allaah who came to us with clear signs from Allaah, so we believed that.' Then it is said to him: 'Have you seen Allaah?' So he says: 'It does not behove any man that he sees Allaah.' So an opening is made for him in the direction of the Fire, so he sees it, some parts of it smashing into others, and it is said to him: 'Look at what Allaah, the Exalted, has saved you from.' Then an opening is made for him in the direction of Paradise, and he looks to its brilliance and what is therein and it is said to him: 'This is your place.' And it is said to him: 'You were upon certain Faith and died upon it and upon it you will be raised up, if Allaah wills.' And the wicked man sits in his grave alarmed and terrified and so it is said to him: 'In what state were you?' So he says: 'I do not know.' So it is said to him: 'Who is this man?' So he says: 'I heard the people saying something so I said it!' So an opening is made for him in the direction of Paradise and he sees its brilliance and what is therein, and it is said to him: 'Look at what Allaah has refused you.' Then an opening is made for him in the direction of the Fire, so he sees it crashing against itself and it is said: 'This is your place, you lived upon doubt and died upon it and you will be raised up upon it, if it is Allaah's will." [Saheeh: Ibn Maajah from Abu Hurairah.]

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http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=603

Where do we read anywhere that those in the grave experience the torment of hell fire?

 

[Hiroshi]

Not a question of impossible or possible for God(swt) to do. Again it is a statement that eliminates itself by it's own definition. When something is completely obliterated it no longer exists. A dead animal no longer exists as an animal, it is simply a pile of various organic compounds until those are absorbed into the earth and recycled as soil. It is not a resurrection it is a creation or recreation, but because of the lose of continuity it is not the same animal, no matter if it is an exact replica of the same creature, it is still a new creature.

What differentiates man from beast if both are "souls"? Why is it permitted to eat the flesh of our fellow earthly travelers if they and us are both "souls"?

If I may use an analogy to portray what I think Woodrow is saying here. Suppose that one owns a beautiful 1957 Chevy in mint condition, just as it came off of the assembly line. Sadly, the car is stolen, taken to a junk yard where it is disassembled and sold for scrap. Now the manufacturer buys the scrap metal, melts it down and produces a brand new car that is a perfect remake of that original 1957 Chevy. Despite all of the pieces going into being from the original, and despite the car looking exactly the same, it still isn't going to be a 1957 Chevy, but just a remake. It isn't the same thing, the original is gone and lost forever, never to be again because it was obliterated. That's what that the term "obliterated" means. If what is produced later is the same as the original, then the original was never obliterated but somehow continued to exist.

Moses had a staff or rod that God miraculously changed into a living snake. It then became a lifeless rod once more. But the snake returned to life on at least two more occasions (Surah 20:20; Surah 20:69 also Exodus 4:3; Exodus 4:30; Exodus 7:10). Any thoughts on that?

 

[Woodrow]

Moses had a staff or rod that God miraculously changed into a living snake. It then became a lifeless rod once more. But the snake returned to life on at least two more occasions (Surah 20:20; Surah 20:69 also Exodus 4:3; Exodus 4:30; Exodus 7:10). Any thoughts on that?

No problem with the rod being turned into a snake thousands of times. However, you still do not have any continuity of life. Each time the staff is turned into a snake, it would not be the very same snake. Unless the snake is still alive while it is in the form of a staff and that would mean you are ascribing a soul to the snake.

Of course the other option is the staff is always the staff but at times being given the form of a snake like a glass of water is still the same glass of water if it is water, ice or steam. You can look at it as the staff is given the form of a snake and changed back and forth between being a staff or snake. There is no loss or destruction of either, it is the same object in 2 different forms.

 

[جوري]

Where do we read anywhere that those in the grave experience the torment of hell fire?

The above denotes article there is torture in the grave, the torture of hell fire is upon resurrection.. not difficult is it?

all the best

 

[Grace Seeker]

My take is that the staff is always a staff that God causes to take on the form of a snake, but still is in essence a staff.

I'm also hoping I might get a response to this:

If you say that we are "born with a soul" it gives the impression that we are made up of two parts: body and soul. This is not the picture that the Bible gives. Rather, it refers to the soul as the whole person.

Are you saying that according to the Bible soul and body are inseparable?

 

[Hiroshi]

The above denotes article there is torture in the grave, the torture of hell fire is upon resurrection.. not difficult is it?

all the best

Oh sure. What the angels meant was: “taste the punishment of hellfire 1,000 years from now.”

 

[Woodrow]

Oh sure. What the angels meant was: “taste the punishment of hellfire 1,000 years from now.”

I am not certain if that is what the angel meant, but if it was, What is the problem?