China Outraged Over Nobel Peace Prize Selection

[Trumble]

I was specifically replying to Lynx and what he said about western democracy being "human nature" - You need to actually read the posts next time rater then jumping on the reply button.

I did read the posts and what I said still stands. It may have escaped your attention but just about every post in every thread, bar the first one, is 'specifically replying' to somebody.

Please keep your thoughts on what I 'need' to do to yourself in future.

 

[Zafran]

I did read the posts and what I said still stands. It may have escaped your attention but just about every post in every thread, bar the first one, is 'specifically replying' to somebody.

Please keep your thoughts on what I 'need' to do to yourself in future.

If I need your advice, I'll ask you for it - but as I havent mind your business.

 

[almahdali]

Westerners always make their brands look good everywhere and everytime. It is them who made themselves as classy and others are not. They have this standard and others have no standard. Well, certain standards that they have are quite good, that's impressive! But they can't impose everything that come from them as suitable everywhere or being perceived in the same manner as they perceive it. Many seminars and workshop being held in educational institution for e.g whether EU is a good example for ASEAN? EU is a supranational organization which is established through treaties for economic purposes in the beginning, while ASEAN is more to a group of countries in South East Asia established due to political motives. How could we answer the question on what is the good model of the systems in each part of the world?

In the case of China, I personally won't look at it as something wrong or right. They have their own values and also their own justification for the state acts, the same as West have their own values. My respect and condolence to Tian An Men victims. We should first understand the situation. I have a Muslim Chinese friend and this topic is quite interesting for me.

This book by Dru. C. Gladney is quite interesting. It's title is Muslim Chinese: Ethnic Nationalism. It is about the protest began in Beijing on 12th of May 1989 by Sino-Muslim and other Muslim ethnic students on the publication of a book called 性風俗, Xing Fengsu (Sexual Customs) which was claimed as denigrated Islam. The book can be found online.

 

[Hugo]

Westerners always make their brands look good everywhere and everytime. It is them who made themselves as classy and others are not. They have this standard and others have no standard. Well, certain standards that they have are quite good, that's impressive! But they can't impose everything that come from them as suitable everywhere or being perceived in the same manner as they perceive it. Many seminars and workshop being held in educational institution for e.g whether EU is a good example for ASEAN? EU is a supranational organization which is established through treaties for economic purposes in the beginning, while ASEAN is more to a group of countries in South East Asia established due to political motives. How could we answer the question on what is the good model of the systems in each part of the world?

I see your point and it has value but I wonder if simply contextualising something just allows one to explain why something is as it is and then we are not very far away from explaining its away? Just to give an extreme example to make the point, one might try to see the holocaust in its setting and that of itself is no bad thing as long as we are able to maintain that nothing can explain away such depravity - thus cultural norm or regimes must not stop us seeing wrongs, obvious wrongs and it really does not matter if they are Western or Eastern since none of these has a monopoly on goodness. What do you thing?

 

[almahdali]

I do agree with the idea that we could never justify wrong deeds done by certain regimes or group of people, that is more to liberalist idea who believes in the law, norms, and negotiations. But as to say, we also have to try to see things in their own shoes. By placing ourselves on their feet, then what will we do? Sometimes, certain situations had deprived actors I mean the state or governance to act in certain measures. Well, if we look at it in theoretical manner but in real life, those acts of states are of the mixture of things and quite complicated

 

[Argamemnon]

Nobel Peace Prize: Pak comes out in support of China

Pakistan on Friday came out in support of its ``all-weather friend’’ China by questioning the decision to award the Nobel Peace Prize 2010 to Liu Xiaobo ``for his long and non-violent struggle for fundamental human rights in China’’. Beijing has viewed the selection as a display of the arrogance and prejudice of the Nobel Committee against China.

In a statement that came exactly a week after the announcement was made in Oslo last Friday, the Foreign office said Pakistan was ``surprised and deeply perturbed’’ by the choice; adding that the politicisation of the Prize for the purposes of interference in the domestic affairs of states is not only contrary to the recognized principles of inter-State conduct but also a negation of the underlying spirit conceived by the founder of the Prize.
Maintaining that Mr. Liu was sentenced by the Chinese judicial system and has ``done nothing that could possibly qualify him for the Prize’’, Pakistan said the decision runs contrary to the established principles for the award of the Prize and ``therefore cannot but be seen to be detracting from the prestige associated with this award’’.

Pakistan, according to the Foreign Office, deeply values the implementation of the commitments that the People’s Republic of China has made for upholding the principles and norms of international law, humanity and civilized conduct.

``China has made bold strides on the road to socio-economic development. Pakistan has no doubt that under its sagacious and visionary leadership, the Chinese people will continue to pursue their national development priorities which have brought about substantial improvement in the standard of living and the human rights of 1.3 billion people. The spirit of humanity that imbues the Chinese civilization is a shining example to the rest of the world.’’

http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/article834058.ece

 

[Muezzin]

If I need your advice, I'll ask you for it - but as I havent mind your business.

Less of this, lads.

 

[titus]

Argamemnon,

So you support the way China is treating Liu Xiaobo?

Or do you just think that awarding him a prize is more of an injustice than what China is doing to him, since you seem to be heaping scorn upon the prize but none on the China.

 

[Argamemnon]

Argamemnon,

So you support the way China is treating Liu Xiaobo?

Or do you just think that awarding him a prize is more of an injustice than what China is doing to him, since you seem to be heaping scorn upon the prize but none on the China.

I believe western imperialism and media propaganda and aggression are much more serious issues and threats than Liu Xiaobo's freedom of speech.

 

[titus]

I suppose you believe that people in the West should not voice their opinions on anything that does not take place in the West then?

Or are you just at the point where no matter what someone in the West does your first reaction is to find some way of justifying how to rail against it? Even if that means implicitly condoning throwing someone in jail simply for voicing their opinion.

Or do you have no problem throwing people in jail for voicing their opinion, especially if they disagree with you?

 

[Ansariyah]

I agree that the Nobel Peace prize nowadays is a Big Joke, mostly for political gain but has lil to do with 'peace'. Its obvious that the Nobel Peace Prize Committee is using this award as a tool to shame another country, not that I disagree that china is a Police state that needs its own reform, but I think that reform should come from china itself not from NPP.

I do hope that Liu Xiabo gets released he's serving 11 years for being the voice of so many oppressed people.

 

[almahdali]

That kind of realist perspective is very Western itself, it came from Greece. Asia is somehow different from Westerners and I think that it is not fair to just assume Western model would suit Asian states.

When looking at political scene in Asia, look at it in Asian shoes. Just like Western look at their political scenes in their own shoes. We can simply see Europe according to Asian perspectives and the result would be not according to the ideas of Westerners. Nonethless, the First World War began in Europe which is a part of West. You have that rival among each others that made you need a supranational body to bring you together in negotiations and compromise.

In Asia we already have our own philosopies such as Confucianism, Buddhism, and also Islam, Judaism or Oriental Christianity as religions which sets our paradigm toward our own realm. It's different from the West where you people have to develop secularism, marxism, liberalism, realism, whatever complicated theory frameworks to view the acts of states in international relations. It's not wrong however to provide opinions

 

[almahdali]

My personal opinion is that I don't give a **** to Nobel Prize, lol ;D

 

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Such is life under one party rule.

USA not a one party state? (slightly off topic I know)

Lynx

China is funny.
They should realize Western democracy is going to overrun them eventually; it's human nature. They've already basically accepted the free market system of the West and that's essentially more than half way there ~.~

Yes, this idea that it’s a ‘law of nature’ that the peoples of the third world countries will become like Europeans (hence ‘civilised’) has a long and sordid history in European intellectual and political thought. So (for example) one shouldn’t be too surprised when European nations invade other lands, they are not there to plunder, despoil, and exploit the place; they are merely there to civilise them hence enacting the ‘law of nature’.

Of course when the natives resist the ‘civilising’ process it elicits incomprehension particularly among educated opinion hence stern measures must be taken so that the ‘law of nature’ can proceed without interruptions.

Let’s take one example the American conquest of the Philippines during the 1900s. It was a murderous colonial war (parallels with Iraq anyone?) where hundreds of thousands of Filipinos were slaughtered. The American press recognised this but soberly advised that ‘we’ must continue to kill ‘the natives in English fashion’ until they come to ‘respect our arms’ and ultimately respect our good intentions.

When President McKinley was queried about whether America was acting in ways ‘inconsistent’ with its professed values of ‘freedom’ and ‘democracy’ he responded;

‘it is not a good time for the liberator to submit important questions concerning liberty and government to the liberated while they are engaged in shooting down their rescuers’

Happily for the President the Filipinos eventually realised the error of their ways and submitted to their new ‘benefactor’ hence the ‘law of nature’ is resumed. Of course it took hundreds of thousands of corpses and the destruction of the country but these are minor, grubby and ultimately uninteresting details.

Take a look at Philippines now, particularly its economy after a century of American ‘tutelage’ and compare it with countries like South Korea, Taiwan that managed to resist for one reason or another the imposition of American neoliberal economics. Philippines is a basket case while South Korea and Taiwan have developed. Iraqis take note.

 

[Lynx]

Salaam



USA not a one party state? (slightly off topic I know)



Yes, this idea that it’s a ‘law of nature’ that the peoples of the third world countries will become like Europeans (hence ‘civilised’) has a long and sordid history in European intellectual and political thought. So (for example) one shouldn’t be too surprised when European nations invade other lands, they are not there to plunder, despoil, and exploit the place; they are merely there to civilise them hence enacting the ‘law of nature’.

Of course when the natives resist the ‘civilising’ process it elicits incomprehension particularly among educated opinion hence stern measures must be taken so that the ‘law of nature’ can proceed without interruptions.

Let’s take one example the American conquest of the Philippines during the 1900s. It was a murderous colonial war (parallels with Iraq anyone?) where hundreds of thousands of Filipinos were slaughtered. The American press recognised this but soberly advised that ‘we’ must continue to kill ‘the natives in English fashion’ until they come to ‘respect our arms’ and ultimately respect our good intentions.

When President McKinley was queried about whether America was acting in ways ‘inconsistent’ with its professed values of ‘freedom’ and ‘democracy’ he responded;

‘it is not a good time for the liberator to submit important questions concerning liberty and government to the liberated while they are engaged in shooting down their rescuers’

Happily for the President the Filipinos eventually realised the error of their ways and submitted to their new ‘benefactor’ hence the ‘law of nature’ is resumed. Of course it took hundreds of thousands of corpses and the destruction of the country but these are minor, grubby and ultimately uninteresting details.

Take a look at Philippines now, particularly its economy after a century of American ‘tutelage’ and compare it with countries like South Korea, Taiwan that managed to resist for one reason or another the imposition of American neoliberal economics. Philippines is a basket case while South Korea and Taiwan have developed. Iraqis take note.

Good thing I don't support forced democracies.

 

[Ramadhan]

Take a look at Philippines now, particularly its economy after a century of American ‘tutelage’ and compare it with countries like South Korea, Taiwan that managed to resist for one reason or another the imposition of American neoliberal economics. Philippines is a basket case while South Korea and Taiwan have developed. Iraqis take note.

It is interesting to note that -which may come as a shock to some of our western friends here- Singapore, a country which is often much lauded by western countries, is actually among the LEAST democratic nations of SE Asia, if not asia, and has only slowly changed in the past few decades, in terms of political and "western human rights". It certainly has the least press freedom, only beaten by North korea.

But the western nations are not ruffled by this fact, why?
It is because Singapore allows giant multinational companies to operate and take profits from Singapore's economy (which in essence profits from its neighbouring big economies - Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand) and conform conveniently to international trade rules (as it has nothing to lose). Singapore never contradicts US and europe demands in terms of trade and economy although it still control extremely tight grips on its financial system. The country plays very smart, and it has very strong relations with Israel.

Compared that to China, who is demonised by the west, especially by the US, who refuses to kowtow to every demands by the US and european countries.

 

[Ramadhan]

Good thing I don't support forced democracies

From past history, forced democracies have failed miserably.
Countries and societies should be allowed to evolve on their own terms.
But why is the US repeating their "mistakes" in Iraq and Afghanistan, and at an apparent huge costs too?
Makes you wonder eh?

 

[Lynx]

From past history, forced democracies have failed miserably.
Countries and societies should be allowed to evolve on their own terms.

Yep. Personally I think in the next 200 years almost everywhere will be a democracy of some kind.

But why is the US repeating their "mistakes" in Iraq and Afghanistan, and at an apparent huge costs too?
Makes you wonder eh?

The US has many complicated issues in the policy making department, hence Israel being so well supported by USA.

 

[GuestFellow]

Salaam,

I mean Obama, what did he get it for?

No idea. ._.

I'll question the idea of western democracy being "human nature" - that type of rhetoric can be scary - especially seeing whats happening in Iraq and Afghainstan.

Yes, I find it frightening how many civilians are killed in the name of democracy.

 

[titus]

USA not a one party state?

Nope. In the United States you can vote for any party, or even an independent candidate. You can vote Democrat, Republican, Green, Communist, Socialist, Libertarian... the list goes on and on. If I wanted to I could start a new party tomorrow and with enough support have it on the ballot for the next election.

In China you can only vote for someone who is a member of the Communist Party. Technically there are 8 other parties that are "allowed" but those parties are all controlled by the Communist Party.