Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

[Hiroshi]

While this is an admirable quality and one I admit I have some admiration for those who refuse to engage in war at any price. The reality is being good and passive is not enough, one must always be prepared to fight evil by whatever means is necessary and at times this does require physical fighting. Will you remain passive and refuse to take up arms if your anticipated Battle of Armageddon begins today?

Just a thought. I know one of the basic tenets of the JWs is the battle of Armageddon. How do you know that this war has not been going on for the past 1000 years and JWs have refused to fight on the side of God(sw) ever since it began?

What we are expecting is an unprecedented worldwide attack upon all religion by the United Nations. This is pictured in Revelation 17:16 by the attack on Babylon the Great by the wild beast. The political powers and the UN will succeed in wiping out all religions until Jehovah's Witnesses are the last one.

At that time there will be no middle ground. Everyone will be either with Jehovah's Witnesses or will be supporting those that are trying to destroy them. We will seem to have no protection or help. And our enemies will confidently move to the attack. But then Jehovah will intervene to save his people. That will be Armageddon. At no time in all of this will we be required to do physical fighting. Remember what happened with the Egyptians and the Israelites at the Red Sea?

 

[Grace Seeker]

On 18 November 1978 a group of very religious people commited mass suicide in what came to be known as the Jonestown massacre. Does that prove that they had the truth? Surely not. It should be evident to all that what they did was wrong and stupid.

What I am trying to do is cite an example where we would all agree that having to die rather than compromise was the right thing to do. Hitler's reign of terror in Nazi Germany is surely universally seen as evil. But during WW2 Catholics, Protestants and Evangelical gave Hitler cowardly, fawning servility while he responded by closing their schools and confiscating their property. Anti-Christian literature was circulated among the German soldiers. But the churches rang the bells in celebration when Hitler gained victories. That was up until the time when the bells were taken away to be melted down to make more weapons.

When it really mattered the other churches acted disgracefully but Jehovah's Witnesses did not. That's all I'm saying.

Hiroshi, you are saying much more than you imply. You have made very large categorical statements that seem to imply that no Jehovah's Witnesses acted disgracefully, and that all from other churches did. Now, perhaps that is not what you are meaning to say, but it is the message that is being received. And quite plainly, I don't know how you can know that it is true of all JWs and I can tell you that I know that there were many members of other churches that did NOT act, as you term it, disgracefully; surely you are familiar with the story of Dietrich Bonhoeffer?

 

[Woodrow]

What we are expecting is an unprecedented worldwide attack upon all religion by the United Nations. This is pictured in Revelation 17:16 by the attack on Babylon the Great by the wild beast. The political powers and the UN will succeed in wiping out all religions until Jehovah's Witnesses are the last one.

At that time there will be no middle ground. Everyone will be either with Jehovah's Witnesses or will be supporting those that are trying to destroy them. We will seem to have no protection or help. And our enemies will confidently move to the attack. But then Jehovah will intervene to save his people. That will be Armageddon. At no time in all of this will we be required to do physical fighting. Remember what happened with the Egyptians and the Israelites at the Red Sea?

The way I understand that is; while the UN is destroying all religions, no JW will take up arms to try to stop them. Or in other words it means the JWs will play a passive but complacent approval of the UN killing people. In other words JWs will be siding with the UN in the destruction of other religions. The JWs will indirectly be using the UN as a weapon to kill and destroy those who are not JWs.

 

[جوري]

couldn't have said it better myself-- only the army that raises up for God deserves God's kingdom! and we all know who the secularists and the misguided man/worshipers are fighting!

 

[Hiroshi]

Hiroshi, you are saying much more than you imply. You have made very large categorical statements that seem to imply that no Jehovah's Witnesses acted disgracefully, and that all from other churches did. Now, perhaps that is not what you are meaning to say, but it is the message that is being received. And quite plainly, I don't know how you can know that it is true of all JWs and I can tell you that I know that there were many members of other churches that did NOT act, as you term it, disgracefully; surely you are familiar with the story of Dietrich Bonhoeffer?

I believe that there were right minded people of all religions who could see that what Hitler was doing was wrong. I also know that some JWs compromised their faith during persecution and their were some who also did later when they were released from the concentration camps. But I think that overall, the record of the JWs in Nazi Germany was commendable. Also, for us, the persecution hasn't stopped. Since WW2 many countries continue to punish those who refuse military service or salute the flag. If everyone had followed our example then Hitler would have had no soldiers.

But I don't want to seem to sing my own praises any longer. Just look at the history books and decide for yourself.

 

[Hiroshi]

The way I understand that is; while the UN is destroying all religions, no JW will take up arms to try to stop them. Or in other words it means the JWs will play a passive but complacent approval of the UN killing people. In other words JWs will be siding with the UN in the destruction of other religions. The JWs will indirectly be using the UN as a weapon to kill and destroy those who are not JWs.

We don't want anyone to be destroyed. That's why we go out to preach. But Revelation 17:17 says that "God put it into their hearts [i.e. the hearts of those who attack Babylon the Great] to carry out his thought". So when the time comes, it will really be God himself that will act to destroy false religion. And no one can oppose God when he takes action. Isn't that what Muslims believe also? War with the Anti-Christ, and so on?

 

[Hiroshi]

couldn't have said it better myself-- only the army that raises up for God deserves God's kingdom! and we all know who the secularists and the misguided man/worshipers are fighting!

Perhaps we can hope that all of us see that kingdom, whatever our shortcomings.

 

[جوري]

Perhaps we can hope that all of us see that kingdom, whatever our shortcomings.

Those in whose heart there is good and come back aright to the path of the righteous shall see it indeed!

all the best

 

[IAmZamzam]

Isn't that what Muslims believe also? War with the Anti-Christ, and so on?

Well...something like that...sorta...but the Dajjal thing is argued over endlessly.

 

[Hiroshi]

Well...something like that...sorta...but the Dajjal thing is argued over endlessly.

It's based on writings in the hadith, right? I don't remember reading anything in the Qur'an about the Dajjal.

 

[IAmZamzam]

No, there's really nothing in the Koran about it at all, and the ahadith in question are quite controversial.

 

[Hiroshi]

No, there's really nothing in the Koran about it at all, and the ahadith in question are quite controversial.

The story that I have been told over and over is that Jesus will return, kill all the pigs and break all the crosses. Then he will fight with the Dajjal and die. But he will also afterwards be resurrected. Is this not well authenticated then?

 

[جوري]

The story that I have been told over and over is that Jesus will return, kill all the pigs and break all the crosses. Then he will fight with the Dajjal and die. But he will also afterwards be resurrected. Is this not well authenticated then?

Jesus didn't die to be resurrected! --
his return marks several things and the last thing on that list will be his death as is the lot of man. However he'll achieve several prophecies during his stay on earth and his stay is said to either be 70 years or until he is of the age of 70 where he'll rule with justice and Islamic law, abolish jizyah and kill the 'anti-christ'. I am pressed for time to populate such ahadith for you now however undoubtedly they are listed in several placed in this forum!

and here are some for now:

[Hadith about the Dajjal Islam - The Signs Before the Day of Judgement Written by Administrator Monday, 07 February 2005 01:16 [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hadith about the Dajjal[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Abdullah Ibn 'Omar said, "'Omar Ibn al-Khattab went along with the Prophet and a group of people to Ibn Sayyad, and found him playing with some children near the battlement of Banu Maghalah. At that time Ibn Sayyad was on the threshold of adolescence; he did not realise that anybody was near until the Prophet struck him on the back. The Prophet said to him: 'Do you bear witness than I am the Messenger of Allah?' Ibn Sayyad looked at him and said, 'I bear witness that you are the Prophet of the unlettered.' Then Ibn Sayyad said to the Prophet, 'Do you bear witness that I am the Messenger of Allah? 'The Prophet dismissed this and said, 'I believe in Allah and His Messengers.' Then the Prophet asked him, 'What do you see?' Ibn Sayyad said, 'Sometimes a truthful person comes to me, and sometimes a liar.' The Prophet said to him, 'You are confused', then he said, 'I am hiding something from you.' Ibn Sayyad said, 'It is Dukh.' The Prophet said, 'Silence! You will not be able to go beyond your rank.' 'Omar Ibn al-Khattab said, 'O Messenger of Allah, shall I cut off his head?' The Prophet said, 'If he is (the Dajjal) you will not be able to overpower him, and if he is not, then killing will not do you any good.'"[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Salim Ibn 'Abdullah said, "I heard 'Abdullah Ibn 'Omar say, 'After that, the Prophet and Ubayy Ibn Ka'b went along to the palm trees where Ibn Sayyad was. The Prophet started to hide behind a tree, with the intention of hearing something from Ibn Sayyad before Ibn Sayyad saw him. The Prophet saw him lying on a bed, murmuring beneath a blanket. Ibn Sayyad's mother saw the Prophet hiding behind a tree, and said to her son, "O Saf (Ibn Sayyad's first name), here is Mohammad!" Ibn Sayyad jumped up, and the Prophet said, "If you had left him alone, he would have explained himself.''[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Salim said, "'Abdullah Ibn 'Omar said, The Prophet stood up to address the people. He praised Allah as He deserved to be praised, then he spoke about the Dajjal: 'I warn you against him; there is no Prophet who has not warned his people against him, even Noah warned his people against him. But I will tell you something which no other Prophet has told his people. You must know that the Dajjal is one-eyed, and Allah is not one-eyed.'"[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ibn Shihab said: "'Omar Ibn Thabit al-Ansari told me that some of the Companions of the Prophet told him that on the day when he warned the people about the Dajjal, the Prophet said: "There will be written between his eyes the word Kafir (unbeliever). Everyone who resents his bad deeds - or every believer- will be able to read it." He also said, "You must know that no one of you will be able to see his Lord until he dies.'" (Muslim, al-Bukhari). Ibn 'Omar said, "The Prophet mentioned the Dajjal to the people. He said, "Allah is not one-eyed, but the Dajjal is blind in his right eye, and his eye is like a floating grape.'" (Muslim) Anas Ibn Malik said, "The Prophet said, 'there has never been a Prophet who did not warn his people against that one-eyed liar. Verily he is one-eyed and your Lord is not one-eyed. On his forehead will be written the letter Kaf, Fa, Ra (Kafir).'" (Muslim, al-Bukhari)[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hudhayfah said, "The Prophet said, 'I know more about the powers which the Dajjal will have than he will know himself. He will have two flowing rivers: one will appear to be pure water, and the other will appear to be flaming fire. Whosoever lives to see that, let him choose the river which seems to be fire, then let him close his eyes, lower his head and drink from it, for it will be cold water. The Dajjal will be one-eyed; the place where one eye should be will be covered by a piece of skin. On his forehead will be written the word Kafir, and every believer, whether literate or illiterate, will be able to read it.'" (Muslim)[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Abu Hurayrah said, "The Prophet said, 'Shall I tell you something about the Dajjal which no Prophet has ever told his people before me? The Dajjal is one-eyed and will bring with him something which will resemble Paradise and Hell; but that which he calls Paradise will in fact be Hell. I warn you against him as Noah warned his people against him.'" (al-Bukhari, Muslim)[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Mohammad Ibn Munkadir said: "I saw Jabir Ibn 'Abdullah swearing by Allah that Ibn Sayyad was the Dajjal, so I asked him, 'Do you swear by Allah?' He said, 'I heard 'Omar swear to that effect in the presence of the Prophet, and the Prophet did not disapprove of it.'" Some 'ulama' (scholars) say that some of the Sahabah (Companions of the Prophet) believed Ibn Sayyad to be the greater Dajjal, but that is not the case: Ibn Sayyad was a lesser dajjal. Ibn Sayyad travelled between Makkah and Madina with Abu Sa'id, and complained to him about the way that people were saying that he was the Dajjal. Then he said to Abu Sa'id, "Did not the Prophet say that the Dajjal would not enter Madina? I was born there. Did not he say that he would not have any children? - I have children. Did not he say that he would be a Kafir? - I have embraced Islam. Of all the people, I know the most about him: I know where he is now. If I were given the opportunity to be in his place, I would not resent it.'" (al-Bukhari, Muslim)
[/FONT]

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http://islam.worldofislam.info/inde...rticle&catid=70&id=50:hadith-about-the-dajjal
all the best

 

[Hiroshi]

Jesus didn't die to be resurrected! --
his return marks several things and the last thing on that list will be his death as is the lot of man. However he'll achieve several prophecies during his stay on earth and his stay is said to either be 70 years or until he is of the age of 70 where he'll rule with justice and Islamic law, abolish jizyah and kill the 'anti-christ'. I am pressed for time to populate such ahadith for you now however undoubtedly they are listed in several placed in this forum!

and here are some for now:

My thanks to you, Vales Lily. Sorry that you were pressed for time.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I believe that there were right minded people of all religions who could see that what Hitler was doing was wrong. I also know that some JWs compromised their faith during persecution and their were some who also did later when they were released from the concentration camps. But I think that overall, the record of the JWs in Nazi Germany was commendable. Also, for us, the persecution hasn't stopped. Since WW2 many countries continue to punish those who refuse military service or salute the flag. If everyone had followed our example then Hitler would have had no soldiers.

But I don't want to seem to sing my own praises any longer. Just look at the history books and decide for yourself.

Based on your own testimony, if everyone had followed the JW example then:
1) overall, the record of everyone would have been commendable, but
2) some would have compromised their faith during persecution, and
3) some would also have done so later when they were released from the concentration camps.

I could say the same thing about the Confessing Church. Some of whom went beyond simply not supporting Hitler, to actually putting their lives on the line and actively opposting him. What record is their of JWs actually being a part of the resistance? Looking at the history books I haven't found that particular part of the story.

 

[Hiroshi]

I could say the same thing about the Confessing Church. Some of whom went beyond simply not supporting Hitler, to actually putting their lives on the line and actively opposting him. What record is their of JWs actually being a part of the resistance? Looking at the history books I haven't found that particular part of the story.

Hitler committed great evils in the earlier part of his time as a dictator but Britain and America did nothing. It was only when they saw themselves being threatened by the seemingly unstoppable expansion and conquests of Nazi Germany that they declared war. As I said before, JWs are politically neutral. They do not take up arms to overthrow kingdoms or governments. They know for a certainty that God himself will destroy and bring an end to all man made rulerships (Daniel 2:44). The time when God will do this is now very close. The urgent work that God has for us at this time is preaching about the kingdom before the end comes (Matthew 24:14); not fighting wars on battlefields.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Hitler committed great evils in the earlier part of his time as a dictator but Britain and America did nothing. It was only when they saw themselves being threatened by the seemingly unstoppable expansion and conquests of Nazi Germany that they declared war. As I said before, JWs are politically neutral. They do not take up arms to overthrow kingdoms or governments. They know for a certainty that God himself will destroy and bring an end to all man made rulerships (Daniel 2:44). The time when God will do this is now very close. The urgent work that God has for us at this time is preaching about the kingdom before the end comes (Matthew 24:14); not fighting wars on battlefields.

Two points.

1) This line of apology that you are offering regarding JWs seems to be one of trying to present them as being morally superior to other groups. I'll not say that you are wrong, but I'm not buying what you are selling. Initially (several posts ago) you seemed to lift up JWs as being superior because of their unwillingness to go along with Hitler while others did. I've pointed out how JWs were not unique in that attitude, nor were all JWs unwilling to go along. In other words, there was plenty of both noteworthy and dispicable behavior by both JWs and non-JWs. Secondly at one time you referenced them as being pacifists, in reality we see not that they are pacificsts, but merely non-involved. That gives the appearance of pacifism in some situation, but a commitment to pacifism is not what motivates their non-involvement. Third, you are not trying to denigrade others for sitting on the sidelines and watching, yet this is exactly what an JWs did by virtue of their non-involvement. That they as a result suffered for their actions is not an argument for great moral integrity. Fourth, Hitler was finally defeated by those who took a stand, but without the concerted help of JWs. Many of these people sacrificed their own lives to accomplish something that would bring a greater benefit to others than to themselves even if they had lived. In this case, that seems to me a far higher degree of moral integrity than being politically neutral. But that's just how it seems to me and why I'm not buying what you're selling, you're certainly free to see it differently.


2) "Very close" is a relative term. What might seem very close to one person might seem far, far away to another. The question that all must answer is really not when God will bring an end to manmade rulerships, but how shall we live until God does what God is ultimately going to do? I don't particularly care for the way that JWs have answered this over time. First, they have shown a lack of consistency by answering it differently in different generations. (Don't challenge me on this, I have indisputable proof in official Watchtower publications as my great-grandfather was a JW in 1917 and I have all of his old books.) But of course, there is nothing unique about groups restating their answer to this question over time. Every group represented on this board has answered that question differently to different generations which faced different issues. Second, JWs again are not alone in an expectation that the end is coming, nor even are they alone in expecting it to be a relatively imminent event. As a Christian (of the historic and not restorationists variety), my response is that we are to live a life worthy of the kingdom in the here and now, not waiting for its final consumation and the ultimately victory, but to practice kingdom ethics even in this world. Have all Christians done this? No. But that is what I understand our calling to be. So, preaching and bearing witness is one part of this, but in contrast to your position I do not believe it is the one and only thing.

 

[Hiroshi]

Two points.

1) This line of apology that you are offering regarding JWs seems to be one of trying to present them as being morally superior to other groups. I'll not say that you are wrong, but I'm not buying what you are selling. Initially (several posts ago) you seemed to lift up JWs as being superior because of their unwillingness to go along with Hitler while others did. I've pointed out how JWs were not unique in that attitude, nor were all JWs unwilling to go along. In other words, there was plenty of both noteworthy and dispicable behavior by both JWs and non-JWs. Secondly at one time you referenced them as being pacifists, in reality we see not that they are pacificsts, but merely non-involved. That gives the appearance of pacifism in some situation, but a commitment to pacifism is not what motivates their non-involvement. Third, you are not trying to denigrade others for sitting on the sidelines and watching, yet this is exactly what an JWs did by virtue of their non-involvement. That they as a result suffered for their actions is not an argument for great moral integrity. Fourth, Hitler was finally defeated by those who took a stand, but without the concerted help of JWs. Many of these people sacrificed their own lives to accomplish something that would bring a greater benefit to others than to themselves even if they had lived. In this case, that seems to me a far higher degree of moral integrity than being politically neutral. But that's just how it seems to me and why I'm not buying what you're selling, you're certainly free to see it differently.


2) "Very close" is a relative term. What might seem very close to one person might seem far, far away to another. The question that all must answer is really not when God will bring an end to manmade rulerships, but how shall we live until God does what God is ultimately going to do? I don't particularly care for the way that JWs have answered this over time. First, they have shown a lack of consistency by answering it differently in different generations. (Don't challenge me on this, I have indisputable proof in official Watchtower publications as my great-grandfather was a JW in 1917 and I have all of his old books.) But of course, there is nothing unique about groups restating their answer to this question over time. Every group represented on this board has answered that question differently to different generations which faced different issues. Second, JWs again are not alone in an expectation that the end is coming, nor even are they alone in expecting it to be a relatively imminent event. As a Christian (of the historic and not restorationists variety), my response is that we are to live a life worthy of the kingdom in the here and now, not waiting for its final consumation and the ultimately victory, but to practice kingdom ethics even in this world. Have all Christians done this? No. But that is what I understand our calling to be. So, preaching and bearing witness is one part of this, but in contrast to your position I do not believe it is the one and only thing.

2 Timothy 2:24 says that a slave of the Lord does not need to fight. We are at war, but the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly (2 Corinthians 10:4). The first century Christians did not take part in military service and neither do JWs. Jesus said that his kingdom was no part of this world. If it was then his disciples would have been fighters. But that was not the case. True Christianity was spread by preaching and love. Not by the sword.

 

[Grace Seeker]

True Christianity was spread by preaching and love. Not by the sword.

It's not always about spreading Christianity. Sometimes it just about defending the week and helpless and lifting the burden of the oppressed.

You do realize that those who abstain from the political world, whether it is their intent or not, have effectively cast their lot with prevailing said, be it for good or evil, they are saying they don't care. To not care is, in my book, not an acceptable response for one who is a follower of Christ. Be a pacifist if you genuinely feel that way with regard to war. I can respect that. But be an active pacifist, not simply a passive by standard, suffering whatever the result is, even when it ends up being a Hitler. There were many pacifist who resisted Hitler. But the JWs, if I am to believe what you have written, did nothing. That isn't Christ-like. It doesn't even show a thorough going understanding of the passive-aggressive meaning behind Jesus' words to turn the other cheek and go the second mile. These were not meek responses to the brutality of the Romans, but peaceful ways of protest and non-violent resistence that could, especially in the case of going the second mile, effectively end up with the Roman soldier being punished as a result of those actions.

 

[Woodrow]

The past few posts bring to mind:

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"
attributed to Edmund Burke-- circa:1790