What do Muslims want from Non-Muslims.

[titus]

I would like to see more non-Muslims understand that we do consider trinitarianism to be the worship of 3 Gods. While we love Jesus(as) deeply and have very high respect for him we consider worshiping him to be paganism. Jesus(as) is one of the most beloved of Prophets(PBUT) but he is not a god and should not be worshiped.

Woodrow,

In this matter I would think it is the view of the person doing the worshiping, not some outsider, that should decide the matter. If a Christian says they believe there is only one God who is anyone else to call them a polytheist? One could easily claim that Muslims pray to a rock 5 times a day, while a Muslim would deny this saying they are praying to Allah while facing a rock. No matter what the non-Muslim says, nor how many times they say it, nor how many people they convince, the fact remains that the Muslim is praying to God, not to a rock.

So you can call a Christian a polytheist all you want, but as long as that Christian believes that there is only one God they are not, no matter the view of Muslims or any other non-Christian group. I find the idea of someone telling someone else they are a polytheist and just don't realize it to be a bit absurd. Even the Quran states that Christians believe in one God (and even back then the majority of Christians believed in the trinity).

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

to get their snidey bs out of here. poowee the forum smells bad because of it. have some mercy people.

and another thing, when debating would you please shorten your replies and make them not so long drawn...they tend to put us to sleep that way. the number of times Ive been put off replying to people becuase of this. it tends to bore the hell out of people.

 

[Woodrow]

Another addition to the want list.

I would like to see more non-Muslims understand that we do consider trinitarianism to be the worship of 3 Gods. While we love Jesus(as) deeply and have very high respect for him we consider worshiping him to be paganism. Jesus(as) is one of the most beloved of Prophets(PBUT) but he is not a god and should not be worshiped.

Woodrow,

In this matter I would think it is the view of the person doing the worshiping, not some outsider, that should decide the matter. If a Christian says they believe there is only one God who is anyone else to call them a polytheist? One could easily claim that Muslims pray to a rock 5 times a day, while a Muslim would deny this saying they are praying to Allah while facing a rock. No matter what the non-Muslim says, nor how many times they say it, nor how many people they convince, the fact remains that the Muslim is praying to God, not to a rock.

So you can call a Christian a polytheist all you want, but as long as that Christian believes that there is only one God they are not, no matter the view of Muslims or any other non-Christian group. I find the idea of someone telling someone else they are a polytheist and just don't realize it to be a bit absurd. Even the Quran states that Christians believe in one God (and even back then the majority of Christians believed in the trinity).

Titus,

It was not my intent to debate trintarian beliefs.

I find some non-Muslims do not seem to understand we do not believe in the trinity.

It was my desire that some non-Muslims come to understand that we are not trinitarian. It seems to come as a surprise to some and leads to needless arguments.

 

[جوري]

If only you would use the same logic to your adherence to the Quran

Your understanding of the Quran is undoubtedly even less than that of the bible..
Please don't waste my time on those oh so clever one liners.. again, if you have something of substance to impart bring it to the table-- we are not here to entertain your preconceived suppositions!

all the best

 

[IAmZamzam]

I find the idea of someone telling someone else they are a polytheist and just don't realize it to be a bit absurd.

Why?? People use the power of jargon to allow them to be in denial about what they're trying to say all the time. I wonder sometimes if that's half the purpose of human language in the first place: to obfuscate instead of elucidate. Do I really have to cite examples?

Even the Quran states that Christians believe in one God (and even back then the majority of Christians believed in the trinity.

Where?

 

[titus]

I find some non-Muslims do not seem to understand we do not believe in the trinity.

It was my desire that some non-Muslims come to understand that we are not trinitarian.

I understand, but when you say "I would like to see more non-Muslims understand that we do consider trinitarianism to be the worship of 3 Gods" you are, in effect, calling the majority of Christians polytheists. I think that claim is what leads to the misunderstandings, not the fact that Christians think Muslims believe in the Trinity.

Where?

[29:46] Do not argue with the people of the scripture (Jews, Christians, and Muslims) except in the nicest possible manner - unless they transgress - and say, "We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our god and your god is one and the same; to Him we are submitters.

 

[IAmZamzam]

That was originally revealed to them, yes, but that doesn't mean they still follow it. We both do worship Allah/Jehovah: the problem is adding two imaginary aspects to Him and relegating His own role and existence to the title of "God the Father".

 

[جوري]

As for the miracles of Jesus, the Qur'an confirms them; so every Muslim must believes in them.

A Muslim also is told beyond a shadow of doubt in the Qur'an that Prophet Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him) is innocent of the later dogmas of Christianity such as Trinity, Incarnation, Original Sin, etc. as Jesus never taught them; they were added on by the Christians as they came under the influence of pagan religions and cults they came into contact with. May Allah help us all to cling to the pure monotheism (tawhid) preached by all prophets and messengers from Adam to Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon them all).

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...h-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503549308

God is one, as such even the God of atheists is the same God as that of Muslims, whatever subtractions of additions people do on the side have nothing to do with that precept!

all the best

 

[IAmZamzam]

Some of the Gospels' miracles are confirmed in the Koran, yes, such as, for instance, the healing of the sick and maybe the feeding of the five thousand. Others, such as the walking on water, the Koran is silent about, and other still, such as the animating of the clay birds, are from Gospels not considered "canonical" by Christians. And that's exactly what one should expect of a true account, I think: some things from the usually believed sources confirmed, others denied or unmentioned, a precious few from accounts not usually considered true by most people, and some new information that hasn't been proposed before.

 

[Thucydides1987]

Your understanding of the Quran is undoubtedly even less than that of the bible.. Please don't waste my time on those oh so clever one liners.. again, if you have something of substance to impart bring it to the table-- we are not here to entertain your preconceived suppositions!

Well, in your previous post, I really admired your advocacy for independent thought, and firm emphasis on evidence when approaching any written text, or any claim. I just thought that you ought to perhaps engage in the the same exercise with regard to your holy book, for it too is a text -- just like any scholarly work which you tell me I ought to view with suspicion. It's intriguing to me how you choose to suspend this thought-process when reading the Quran.

 

[جوري]

Well, in your previous post, I really admired your advocacy for independent thought, and firm emphasis on evidence when approaching any written text, or any claim. I just thought that you ought to perhaps engage in the the same exercise with regard to your holy book, for it too is a text -- just like any scholarly work which you tell me I ought to view with suspicion. It's intriguing to me how you choose to suspend this thought-process when reading the Quran.

and you know of my' thought suspension' as comes to the Quran and hadith by what baseline and standard?

 

[Perseveranze]

Asalaamu Alaikum,

What I'd want from non-Muslims is to be a bit open minded. Whenever I speak to some that are interested in knowing about Islam, they tend to have that western influenced Jahiliyaa(ignorance) in them, like when they hear "Islam cut people's hands" they have this really negative mood about Islam and when you try to justify it they seem unwilling to comprehend.

I mean, I was born and grew up in the west, studying Islam, I did find the hands cutting harsh, but I didn't close that book there and then, nor did my opinion suddenly become negative. I studied into it a bit more with an open mind and saw the logical reasonings of it. More importantly stealing in Islamic countries with this law is almost non-existent in comparison to the west, I mean in my area it's happening 24/7. So the question was raised, would you rather live in a safe neighborhood extinct of theives or not.

Sure, the westerner will still say it's harsh, but they certainly shouldn't deny the logical reasonings put forth for such a law and not deem Islam "negativily" because of it. The great thing about Islam is, we don't do things "blindly" or without any basis, there's always some kind of reasoning for any of our actions/beliefs. Someone asked me what the logic behind a Muslim postrating to the ground is and I just said, whats the logic when the person meets the Queen and decides to bow down to her? He says, "to show our honour and respect of meeting her". And I said, that's just your queen, we are in the presence of our CREATOR, going all the way to the ground in postration is the best form of worship/respect we can possibly give him. Ofcourse the other reasons would be that the Prophet(pbuh) postrated, and all the Prophet(peace be upon them) postrated aswell before their Lord.

Just ask the non-Muslims to be a bit more open minded and open hearted, try to forget everything you've known about Islam from the media or non-Islam sources and most important, try to see something from our point of view if you can, it's the best way for you to try and understand us.

Anyways, hope I havn't offended any non-Muslims with anything I've said, your not all ignorant or anything like that, if I have hurt anyone then I deeply apologise beforehand as it was not my intention. Thanks to all the people that have come a long way into seeing the Islam that the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) invited and left us all to.

Another addition to the want list.

I would like to see more non-Muslims understand that we do consider trinitarianism to be the worship of 3 Gods. While we love Jesus(as) deeply and have very high respect for him we consider worshiping him to be paganism. Jesus(as) is one of the most beloved of Prophets(PBUT) but he is not a god and should not be worshiped.

^When I watched videos like that I think... How does a Christian not start questioning it? So I really gotta give my hat up for the Priests or whoever is able to somehow cover these questions in a way that keeps the Christian still convinced. Like really, well done.

The Christians believe that Jesus(pbuh) is a God and that he is their saviour whilst everyone else is going to hellfire.

Allah(swt) gives his answer, which is satisfying enough for me;

They are unbelievers who say, “God is the Messiah, Mary’s son.” Say: “Who then shall override God in any way if He desires to destroy the Messiah, Mary’s son, and his mother, and all those who are on earth?” - Quran (5:17)

Check mate.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I've been trying to read this thread without commenting. But this needs a comment:

Don't you think, though, that it would be difficult for Christians to accept your words when you tell them that "Jesus should not be worshipped"? I'm not Christians myself, so maybe some user who is one can comment on this, but I feel like you're telling Christians to respect your idea that their god is false -- that'd be very difficult to do without being offended. It would be no different if a Christian said to a Muslim, "We (Christians) don't think that Muhammad should be considered with any reverence, because we don't believe him to have been a true prophet...but we also want you to respect this view of ours." You see what I'm getting at here?

As a Christian, I indeed disagree with the characterization that Muslims have of Christianity as a polytheistic, pagan religion engaged in idol worship. And if they really wish for me to take their posts seriously, they will not fill them with invectives that continually seek to lampoon my faith.

On the other hand, just because I disagree with Muslim's view of Christianity doesn't mean that I can't respect that it is their view. So, when making an "I believe" statement I have no problem that a Muslim calls the Christian faith shirk. I only object when Muslims make "You believe" statements and then assert that with regard to me: "You believe in three gods." I don't. I believe in one God. Muslims may have certain opinions with regard to my beliefs, but they are just that, their opinions. My beliefs are owned by me and not them. Muslims don't get to define for Christians what we believe any more than Christians get to define what Islam is.

Imagine how little progress would be made in understanding one another, not just with regard to theology, but anything else, if every time a Muslim declared "You Christians worship idols." that a Christian responde with "You Muslims worship the moon-god." I don't think that would be a very healthy conversation.

So, I try to accept it as "true" (at least true from the point of view of the individual speaking) when a person tells me about his/her beliefs, whether I personally accept that "truth" or not. Hence, if Woodrow says that he views me as worshipping 3 gods because of my Christian faith, then I accept that he views it this way and I don't have to get angry about it. I would only get angry if he, in some other context, would say, "you polytheists don't even understand your own gods." The difference between those two statements being him giving his verision of truth that Woodrow owns as his own view in the first case, and in the second case Woodrow imposing his view on me and showing no concern with regard to how I might view myself. So, it is not Woodrow's personal beliefs that would make me angry, but the lack of showing any regard or concern for how I view myself that would be what would make me angry.
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[أحمد]

I don't really expect anything from non-Muslims, whether it be understanding, or respect. I think once people learn to respect each other due to their own choice, rather than an expectation; its a more sincere change within that particular individual. This applies to any human being, regardless of his or her faith.

:wa:

 

[IAmZamzam]

As a Christian, I indeed disagree with the characterization that Muslims have of Christianity as a polytheistic, pagan religion engaged in idol worship.

Like I said, it is not literally and categorically a pagan, polytheistic religion, but neither is Hinduism. I doubt you see any importance in the distinction that Hindus make between believing in a multitude of gods and believing in a single god in multiple forms or persons or aspects, etc. So why make the distinction with the Trinity? People still call Hinduism a pagan religion, and for good reason. Some fine distinctions are fine precisely because they were drawn with faint and blurry chalk to begin with, probably on purpose. It might be easier to consider the Trinity something other than a feeble and absurd attempt to have it both ways if there was any objective, universally agreed upon, and fully coherent definition of how it works or even what it is (or for that matter, even a definition of “Holy Spirit” which fits those criteria), but it’s all just a contradictory pile of messes of words, which Christians will adamantly defend the full coherency and legibility of one moment and then defend based on its being beyond our mortal comprehension the next, depending on which of the two completely mutually exclusive defense mechanisms is necessary at the particular moment. If you want us to understand the doctrine (i.e. agree with you on it), at least make up your minds whether or not it is understandable at all. If it isn’t, you can’t complain to us about not getting it.

Imagine how little progress would be made in understanding one another, not just with regard to theology, but anything else, if every time a Muslim declared "You Christians worship idols." that a Christian responde with "You Muslims worship the moon-god." I don't think that would be a very healthy conversation.

I would have more respect for this expressed concern of yours to make progress in understanding, Grace Seeker, if you did not talk as though equal understanding by a dissenting party is not inherently possible. And had we Muslims been saying that Allah is only partly a moon god then you would have had a point, assuming that the “moon god” theory were anything other than an easily disprovable missionary tactic shared by practically no one other than missionaries themselves in the first place.

If Woodrow says that he views me as worshipping 3 god because of my Christian faith, then I accept that he views it this way and I don't have to get angry about it. I would only get angry if he, in some other context, would say, "you polytheists don't even understand your own gods."

Is the Trinity comprehensible? Whatever answer you give, I’m going to hold you to it from now on.

 

[جوري]

"You believe in three gods." I don't. I believe in one God.

you keep asserting that, but by the same token assert that there is a god names Jesus (son) god who is a father (in heaven) and a holy spirit (hovering God) that does equal three despite your assertions to the contrary.. as for you comment on 'moon god' well that is what the Quran says of the matter:


041.037

YUSUFALI: Among His Signs are the Night and the Day, and the Sun and the Moon. Do not prostrate to the sun and the moon, but prostrate to Allah, Who created them, if it is Him ye wish to serve.

notice that the 'moon god' much like the triheaded god is not more but an invention of Christians.. they have a nice active imagination!

all the best

 

[Thucydides1987]

From my knowledge of Early Christian history, there seems to be only one reason why Trinitarianism was accepted to be the mainstream view of Christians. Grace Seeker, correct me if I'm wrong anywhere.

The problem dates back to the 4th century, when the Church was trying to sort out which among the various Christian worldviews was the 'true' one. Trinitarianism was one of the two most popular views, the other being Arianism. In Arianism, the idea was that God was separate from Christ, and existed before the beginning of the universe. It was therefore God who created Christ -- i.e. begot him -- and through Christ, begot the Holy Spirit (which, to me, is still an ambiguous concept).

In the battle between Trinitarianism and Arianism, it was the former that eventually won, primarily because it argued that Arianism's simultaneous claim to God, Christ, and Holy Spirit, was a belief in 3 different and separate entities; hence this was polytheism, and so unacceptable. In contrast to this, therefore, members of Trinitarianism asserted that those 3 elements are all part of one unit; that is, they are interconnected and are merely 3 facets of one being.

I would understand the idea of claiming that Trinitarianism is polytheism, but IMO, the theology is missing some conspicuous polytheistic elements which you would otherwise see in Graeco-Roman religion, for example. I would say that it's not quite polytheistic, although it is surely bordering on being so.

 

[Ramadhan]

I would understand the idea of claiming that Trinitarianism is polytheism, but IMO, the theology is missing some conspicuous polytheistic elements which you would otherwise see in Graeco-Roman religion, for example. I would say that it's not quite polytheistic, although it is surely bordering on being so.

when it come to the truth, there is no such thing as "bordering truth" or "bordering untruth", it is either truth or not truth.

 

[Grace Seeker]

From my knowledge of Early Christian history, there seems to be only one reason why Trinitarianism was accepted to be the mainstream view of Christians. Grace Seeker, correct me if I'm wrong anywhere.

This isn't the thread to make all the corrections needed in your post. You're right that Arianism and was one of the major competitors with what today we call orthodox Christianity in the early part of the 4th century. You are also right that Arianism viewed Christ as a created being, but still divine. The counterargument then was that Arianism was even at the time an unorthodox view, and though it held sway in some isolated regions (and even with Emperor Constantine himself) it was never the dominant view.
.

 

[YusufNoor]

I've been trying to read this thread without commenting. But this needs a comment:

actually, you have your own thread to make these explanations.

As a Christian, I indeed disagree with the characterization that Muslims have of Christianity as a polytheistic, pagan religion engaged in idol worship. And if they really wish for me to take their posts seriously, they will not fill them with invectives that continually seek to lampoon my faith.

if you want us to stop treating your religion as polytheistic, you will need to remove a few of your gods and STOP engaging in idol worship.

On the other hand, just because I disagree with Muslim's view of Christianity doesn't mean that I can't respect that it is their view. So, when making an "I believe" statement I have no problem that a Muslim calls the Christian faith shirk. I only object when Muslims make "You believe" statements and then assert that with regard to me: "You believe in three gods." I don't. I believe in one God.

your god has 3 parts that you claim are separate but equal, which is of course nonsense. don't blame us if we don't understand your nonsense. we can't help it, IT IS NONSENSE!

Muslims may have certain opinions with regard to my beliefs, but they are just that, their opinions. My beliefs are owned by me and not them. Muslims don't get to define for Christians what we believe any more than Christians get to define what Islam is.

Imagine how little progress would be made in understanding one another, not just with regard to theology, but anything else, if every time a Muslim declared "You Christians worship idols." that a Christian responde with "You Muslims worship the moon-god." I don't think that would be a very healthy conversation.

you have no evidence for your "moon god" quirp, you know that the allegation is made, you repeat the allegation, but you DON'T KNOW of it's evidence.

So, I try to accept it as "true" (at least true from the point of view of the individual speaking) when a person tells me about his/her beliefs, whether I personally accept that "truth" or not. Hence, if Woodrow says that he views me as worshipping 3 gods because of my Christian faith, then I accept that he views it this way and I don't have to get angry about it. I would only get angry if he, in some other context, would say, "you polytheists don't even understand your own gods." The difference between those two statements being him giving his verision of truth that Woodrow owns as his own view in the first case, and in the second case Woodrow imposing his view on me and showing no concern with regard to how I might view myself. So, it is not Woodrow's personal beliefs that would make me angry, but the lack of showing any regard or concern for how I view myself that would be what would make me angry.

it's not our fault that you hold erroneous views.

The counterargument then was that Arianism was even at the time an unorthodox view, and though it held sway in some isolated regions (and even with Emperor Constantine himself) it was never the dominant view.
.

this is simply not recognized as truthful anymore. not only was Constantine baptized by an Arian, but his kids were Arian as well. the VAST majority of the tribes outside the Roman Empire to the north that accepted Christianity were Arian.

perhaps if the Christians here would learn the truth about history instead of fairy tales spread by Jesuit Priests [and Eusebius], they would begin to understand their world view is totally amiss from the current viewpoint of historians.