Quote unquote skepticism

[Ramadhan]

Only if those aliens are also supernatural and powerful.

So this universe cannot be possibly created by a supernatural and powerful being?

 

[Ramadhan]

hi
i think it means an atheist can accept both. the only difference is the being that created the universe and is omniscient/omnipotent/etc is traditionally defined as God whereas a supercomputer is not God since it's lacking some essential characteristics that we think qualifies something as God. therefore, an atheist would not be an atheist if they accepted the former but an atheist could be an atheist while accepting the latter.

What aspects or essential characteristics of God that atheists find objectionable?

 

[Pygoscelis]

Each atheist here could only answer that question for themselves. As far as atheists in general go... they may or may not find anything objectionable. They simply don't believe in such a being.

If you want to know what the particular atheists here find objectionable about a God, you'll have to describe the God you have in mind.

 

[Lynx]

Each atheist here could only answer that question for themselves. As far as atheists in general go... they may or may not find anything objectionable. They simply don't believe in such a being.

If you want to know what the particular atheists here find objectionable about a God, you'll have to describe the God you have in mind.

+1

What aspects or essential characteristics of God that atheists find objectionable?

I think there are two general camps that lots of atheists fall into (though I may be wrong in this as I am not atheist; they are free to correct me). One group thinks there's just no good reason to believe in God anymore than there's a good reason to believe in Thor or Ra. The second group actively maintains that a God (as depicted by religions) is impossible because of x philosophical argument where x could be the problem of evil or some other reason. As pygo rightly points out each person has an individual answer so you wil probably hear many different things. I personally don't take the Gods of Islam and Christianity and Judaism too seriously for several reasons. The strongest reason for me I imagine is the existence of heaven/hell as it 1) presumes without justification that all morals are black/white & that there is some objective criteria of determining what these are; 2) presumes without justification that people have a choice in what they believe and believing the wrong thing is something to be punished for and 3) these Gods are reminiscent of tyrant kings of the medieval ages and I suspect Allah/Jehova etc are incarnations of how people thought kings/emperors were.

 

[Hugo]

What aspects or essential characteristics of God that atheists find objectionable?

I think you miss the point, to find a person (God) objectionable one has to have some evidence they exist and although I believe in God I am not aware of any material evidence for his existence. Of course one can object about the kind of God some people believe in and what that belief drives them on to do in his name both good and bad. One cannot rationally take any other position unless you can suggest a test of some kind - do you have such a test?

 

[Ramadhan]

I think you miss the point, to find a person (God) objectionable one has to have some evidence they exist and although I believe in God I am not aware of any material evidence for his existence. Of course one can object about the kind of God some people believe in and what that belief drives them on to do in his name both good and bad. One cannot rationally take any other position unless you can suggest a test of some kind - do you have such a test?

Hugo, did you ACTUALLY read my post?
Here, let me repost it for you, and this time I hope you read carefully, and then spend a few minutes or so to really understand what I meant in my simple sentence, and internalize it, before you blabber your mouth and embarrass yourself, AGAIN.

What aspects or essential characteristics of God that atheists find objectionable?

I did NOT ask atheists why they find God objectionable. Get it now?
Even Pygo and Lynx understood completely my simple question. And everyone else, I presume, except you.

Now, do you just like arguing just for the sake of it?
In atheism threads you like being devil's advocate and pretend you don't believe in God.
(well, if I were to worship an absurd idea of a 1+1+1=1 god who came down to earth to humiliate himself and suffering from amnesia, I might as well not believe in one).
You don't even have the conviction in your belief, which makes you a pure hypocrite.

 

[M.I.A.]

I think you miss the point, to find a person (God) objectionable one has to have some evidence they exist and although I believe in God I am not aware of any material evidence for his existence. Of course one can object about the kind of God some people believe in and what that belief drives them on to do in his name both good and bad. One cannot rationally take any other position unless you can suggest a test of some kind - do you have such a test?

lol i see what you did there,
let me tell you where most of us would stand on the point.. we believe every person on the earth belongs to the same god.. and god belongs to no particular person in the world..
to claim guidance would be shamefull as we are not prophets.
to claim that we are never wronge would be a blemish on ones character that would be plane for most to see.

a person is judged by his peers and if he feels hard done by then he waits patiently untill he can be judged by his god.
i cant provide physical proof of a god but his signs are manifest unto all of his creation. if they are objectionable to you then have patients and wait until you find something to believe in, id point you to the quran every day of the week.

 

[Hugo]

a person is judged by his peers and if he feels hard done by then he waits patiently untill he can be judged by his god. i cant provide physical proof of a god but his signs are manifest unto all of his creation. if they are objectionable to you then have patients and wait until you find something to believe in, id point you to the quran every day of the week.

I don't think I said that I find God objectionable as such but I might find the God you or someone else objectionable because of the acts that that person might commit in the name of his God. So if I see a suicide bomber claim authority from his God to blow up a Mosque in Iraq I think I am a least entitled to say that his god is not one I feel any respect for.

 

[Hugo]

Here, let me repost it for you, and this time I hope you read carefully, and then spend a few minutes or so to really understand what I meant in my simple sentence, and internalize it, before you blabber your mouth and embarrass yourself, AGAIN.

My point such as it was that it is all very well to talks about God being omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and so one and it is easy to look these words up in a dictionary but its an absolute fallacy to then even think that now you understand God. It is also rather odd that one the one hand Muslims will say God is all powerful but then say he cannot become a man - one cannot have it both ways otherwise you make your own tiny mind the measure of all things.

My other point is that that one can suggest a list such as omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient etc that purport to describe God and one might think of them as tests, ways to prove he exists but its a false dawn as what possible test could you define to see for example if an unseen God is all knowing? Perhaps instead we should confine our self more towards seeing how people who believe in God live; in this board we might ask are those who post as evidenced by what they say: loving, kind, honest, trustworthy, loyal or are they slanderers, dishonest, hateful, conceited?

 

[جوري]

slanderers, dishonest, hateful, conceited?

That adequately describes you indeed- and I welcome anyone to purchase A history of Quranic text from which you consistently distort the truth to be deceitful which is another thing we should add to the above list!


all the best

 

[Hugo]

That adequately describes you indeed- and I welcome anyone to purchase A history of Quranic text from which you consistently distort the truth to be deceitful which is another thing we should add to the above list!

Well I am happy for any one to read through my posts and look at what I say and how I say it, then do the same with yours and see what conclusion they come to

 

[جوري]

Well I am happy for any one to read through my posts and look at what I say and how I say it, then do the same with yours and see what conclusion they come to

Indeed most people do just that much to your dismay, and hence you were banned once before- although most of us would have wished for a more permanent solution to someone so overtly deceitful, the mods still have to exercise Islamic tolerance even toward those clearly undeserving of it :

[FONT=Verdana,Arial]5:8 (Asad) O YOU who have attained to faith! Be ever steadfast in your devotion to God, bearing witness to the truth in all equity; and never let hatred of any-one [19] lead you into the sin of deviating from justice. Be just: this is closest to being God-conscious. And remain conscious of God: verily, God is aware of all that you do. [/FONT]


too bad your religion hasn't taught you basic principles, like honestly and equity!
all the best

 

[Zafran]

My point such as it was that it is all very well to talks about God being omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and so one and it is easy to look these words up in a dictionary but its an absolute fallacy to then even think that now you understand God. It is also rather odd that one the one hand Muslims will say God is all powerful but then say he cannot become a man - one cannot have it both ways otherwise you make your own tiny mind the measure of all things.

My other point is that that one can suggest a list such as omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient etc that purport to describe God and one might think of them as tests, ways to prove he exists but its a false dawn as what possible test could you define to see for example if an unseen God is all knowing? Perhaps instead we should confine our self more towards seeing how people who believe in God live; in this board we might ask are those who post as evidenced by what they say: loving, kind, honest, trustworthy, loyal or are they slanderers, dishonest, hateful, conceited?

On your first point - by definition Man is not all powerful - he is limited has dirty aspects etc etc - God is non of these things therefore Man is not God - the same argument a pagan could make - God can do anything as hes all powerful so he can turn into an stone or rock or is the idol etc etc - as muslims God is unlike us and far superior. God is greater then anything we can imagine. Ultimatly worshipping a man is worshipping an Idol. By making God into a man - hes become an idol which is shirk.

On your second point where do you get those criterias from - eg a Godly person is trustworthy, loyal, kind? etc is it empathy? or is this from your own religion you follow? The morals have to come from somewhere - For muslims it would have to be from God's prophets eg Abhrahm, Moses, Jacob, Joseph, Isa, Muahmmad, PBUTA etc. - which Muslims trust and have faith were God's people. There lives show that they lived and died for God.

For muslims prophets, laws, the universe etc etc are signs of God.

 

[Hugo]

On your first point - by definition Man is not all powerful - he is limited has dirty aspects etc etc - God is non of these things therefore Man is not God - the same argument a pagan could make - God can do anything as hes all powerful so he can turn into an stone or rock or is the idol etc etc - as muslims God is unlike us and far superior. God is greater then anything we can imagine. Ultimatly worshipping a man is worshipping an Idol. By making God into a man - hes become an idol which is shirk.

I am not sure if we agree or not from what you say here. Certainly God has attributes that perhaps we can name but He is beyond our understanding. At the same time man can and does manufacture God to suit their needs and none of us are immune from that.

On your second point where do you get those criterias from - eg a Godly person is trustworthy, loyal, kind? etc is it empathy? or is this from your own religion you follow? The morals have to come from somewhere - For muslims it would have to be from God's prophets eg Abhrahm, Moses, Jacob, Joseph, Isa, Muahmmad, PBUTA etc. - which Muslims trust and have faith were God's people. There lives show that they lived and died for God. For muslims prophets, laws, the universe etc etc are signs of God.

Biblically we are told there are visible signs that God is or is not at work in your life:

In Colossians chapter 3 we have "Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.

Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

Lists like this are common in the Bible and often summed up by what some people call the 'Golden Rule' which is usually stated as "do as you would be done by" or in less prosaic terms, treat other as you would want them to treat you or you can also say love your neighbour as yourself. These injunctions come from God by way of his prophets and unless you show the characteristics listed in the second list then one can wonder if God has any effect on your life and if you show the characteristics in the first list then God is certainly not at work in you.

 

[جوري]

"do as you would be done by"

When do you think ''Christians'' will live by that golden rule beyond lip service?

all the best

 

[Hugo]

When do you think ''Christians'' will live by that golden rule beyond lip service?

Sadly this is true and all Christians will admit to it that exercising compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience, bearing with each other, forgiving one another and love is true wisdom but these standards set by God are high and so it is often a daily struggle with out own selfishness and pride if not conceit - perhaps you find it easier?

In contrast, I noticed that Liv Ullmann at the Nobel prize ceremony that Liu Xiaobo the peace prize winner said "hatred can rot away at a persons's intelligence and conscience - the enemy mentality will poison the spirit of a nation, incite cruel mortal struggles, destroy a society's tolerance and humanity, and hinders a nations progress towards freedom"

 

[جوري]

Sadly this is true and all Christians will admit to it that exercising compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience, bearing with each other, forgiving one another and love is true wisdom but these standards set by God are high and so it is often a daily struggle with out own selfishness and pride if not conceit - perhaps you find it easier?

I do indeed find it easier, and glad you admit to centuries of hatred, warmongering and deceit.. Perhaps that recognition will serve as an impetus for improvement although I very much doubt it. There is no end to the evolution of morality per your scriptures to fit the tides!

all the best

 

[Zafran]

I am not sure if we agree or not from what you say here. Certainly God has attributes that perhaps we can name but He is beyond our understanding. At the same time man can and does manufacture God to suit their needs and none of us are immune from that.

Not entirely - as christainty is a call to worshipping Jesus pbuh as God thats the main thing that I was talking about - a direct reply to your first point. We can be sure that God is no Idol like a stone, man, a tree ect. I'm sure thats within our understanding.

Those men are astray who do that.

Biblically we are told there are visible signs that God is or is not at work in your life:

In Colossians chapter 3 we have "Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.

Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

Lists like this are common in the Bible and often summed up by what some people call the 'Golden Rule' which is usually stated as "do as you would be done by" or in less prosaic terms, treat other as you would want them to treat you or you can also say love your neighbour as yourself. These injunctions come from God by way of his prophets and unless you show the characteristics listed in the second list then one can wonder if God has any effect on your life and if you show the characteristics in the first list then God is certainly not at work in you.

Preety much agreed on these morals.

 

[M.I.A.]

I don't think I said that I find God objectionable as such but I might find the God you or someone else objectionable because of the acts that that person might commit in the name of his God. So if I see a suicide bomber claim authority from his God to blow up a Mosque in Iraq I think I am a least entitled to say that his god is not one I feel any respect for.

the quran says that the only thing you can do in this world is wrong your own soul. so bombing yourself might not be the way to go.

My point such as it was that it is all very well to talks about God being omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and so one and it is easy to look these words up in a dictionary but its an absolute fallacy to then even think that now you understand God. It is also rather odd that one the one hand Muslims will say God is all powerful but then say he cannot become a man - one cannot have it both ways otherwise you make your own tiny mind the measure of all things.

My other point is that that one can suggest a list such as omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient etc that purport to describe God and one might think of them as tests, ways to prove he exists but its a false dawn as what possible test could you define to see for example if an unseen God is all knowing? Perhaps instead we should confine our self more towards seeing how people who believe in God live; in this board we might ask are those who post as evidenced by what they say: loving, kind, honest, trustworthy, loyal or are they slanderers, dishonest, hateful, conceited?

i can propose a test for you that would allow you some insight into something that is not tangeble or material. it has nothing to do with spoken words but would utterly shatter your world... you would not like it... i do not like it.
it is not proof of god but it is a world changer none the less.

 

[Hugo]

Not entirely - as christainty is a call to worshipping Jesus pbuh as God thats the main thing that I was talking about - a direct reply to your first point. We can be sure that God is no Idol like a stone, man, a tree ect. I'm sure thats within our understanding. Those men are astray who do that.

That of course is your opinion but Christians would look at the evidence connected with Jesus. But what is your image of God, do you have any image, is he in one place or everywhere so perhaps it is wise to not decide what God can be or is because our minds are perhaps far to limited for that

Preety much agreed on these morals.

Yes, I doubt we have any room for disagreement on things like compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience, bearing with each other, forgiving one another and love since I think any sane person would see the deep wisdom behind them. What though is startling is the standard set for exercise of these morals for Jesus said in Matthew 5:43-47 (NIV) “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbour and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven." - would you agree with this?

Interestingly, in a recent book by Mosab Hassan Yousef (Son of HAMAS, ISBN 9781 85078 8782), a Palestinian who was locked up and tortured by the Israelis and witnessed Palestinians killing and tutoring themselves came to realize after reading the above verse that the only real enemy was, as he put it, the "enemy inside"; evil desires and greed, anger, rage, malice, slander, lying ... in simple terms Mosab realized it was possible to love anyone just as God does.