Libya Protests

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Hizbullah has not 'defeated Israel' at all in the sense you are talking about as Israel is still there, as is its regime neither of which Hizbullah ever remotely threatened. They are not my army, and they are not invincible, but if 'regime change' in Israel was quite so easy you don't think somebody might have managed by now?

Hizbullah defeated Israel in 2000 and 2006. Go read Zionist government reports, don't be lazy I'm not your teacher. You don't even know what a defeat is. Hizbullah is currently able to strike every part of Israel with much more advanced missiles. Israel's domination of the region (which fortunately has already started decreasing fast) will not last very long; at most a few decades which is basically negligible in human history. Turkey, Iran and Egypt will deal with Israel accordingly. The countries in the region will eventually force the Zionists to act rational, the balance of power is changing fast and the American empire is also declining which is good news for mankind as a whole.

I wasn't aware of a policy of 'decimating the nation's cultural heritage'

I know you aren't, but Iraqis are. And there are many other policies that you aren't aware of. It's a waste of time arguing with you because your lack of knowledge is extremely frustrating. Perhaps later.
 
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So the truth is that the Libyans were happy as clams under Qadafi, but the US and Europe tricked them into thinking they were unhappy (with Israel as a middle man, of course).


No I realize that they were not happy, but that does not mean the west still did not fund the rebels. Its the same as in Yugoslavia, there was real anger and the people wanted change but the west gave rebel groups weapons and money then watched the country tear itself apart. Then out of the kindness of their heart they steped in.

These conspiracy theories confuse me because they seem contradictory. At least I know that the West are the bad guys, no matter what happens, because they are secretly manipulating everything to their own evil and selfish ends.

I suppose I could see how it seems like a lot of BS. I do not like thinking that the west is always the bad guys but that is the case. I was in the Marines from 2001-2010 and have tried every which way to justify the things we do but I can not. Sadly I have learned a great deal about how this country works and yes the are manipulating things to their own ends.
 
To difficult for you, it seems.
nice try, but no not close.

Exactly what wealth has been stolen? And what Iraqis are fighting the Americans now?
holy freaking crap, what is your IQ at? oh i dont know, maybe their oil. or was that also not obvious? or maybe America are just in Iraq to part-ay?

Which Iraqis ever did for that reason? And the Iraqis who fought, fight and get blown up by them, was it because they wanted the Americans to steal their wealth?!
are you actually trying to convince me that people dont fight for their wealth. wow, your IQ is low.

Get real. Try again.
follow your own advice, and I'll be glad to follow suite.
 
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Of course the rebels wanted the powers to step in, the rebels were created by the united states and western europe. The leaders of the rebels are doing the same thing they did in Egypt, they take anger that was already there and use it for the benefit of the western powers. And the evil Israelis acted as middle men to smuggle in weapons for them. This seems like it will go down like Yugoslavia.

This thread just gets ever more hilarious. So the Libyan rebels were created by the US and Europeans, just like the Egyptian rfebels, the Yemeni rebels, the Tunisian rebels, the Bahraini rebels.... what planet do you live on?

Moving on..
Hizbullah defeated Israel in 2000 and 2006. Go read Zionist government reports, don't be lazy I'm not your teacher.

Mercifully. I'm afraid it's not my IQ or knowledge that's in question, but your comprehension skills. Let me repeat. You were talking about bringing down the Israeli Zionist regime. In that context, Israel have not been defeated by Hizbullah or anybody else. It's still there, and despite your wishful thinking nothing is likely to change in the near future.


I know you aren't, but Iraqis are. And there are many other policies that you aren't aware of. It's a waste of time arguing with you because your lack of knowledge is extremely frustrating. Perhaps later.

In other words, you have nothing to support that claim whatsoever. Why not just admit it rather than waffle? It is indeed a waste of time arguing when you appear to have no argument.


holy freaking crap, what is your IQ at? oh i dont know, maybe their oil. or was that also not obvious? or maybe America are just in Iraq to part-ay?

'You don't know'? And you question MY IQ! Again, nothing to back up your claim. What oil (or anything else) has been 'stolen'?... please feel free to compare with how oil is extracted elsewhere in the Middle East, the type of deals made with US, Chinese, British oil companies anywhere else, etc. etc.


are you actually trying to convince me that people dont fight for their wealth. wow, your IQ is low.

No. I was pointing out that that is, in fact, the consequence of YOUR claim! Read again and do try and pay attention. What I asked you was, if the Iraqis who fought the Americans did so to protect their wealth (actually it was all about power bases post Saddam, but I'll leave you to your fantasies and play along), why the Iraqis who fought those Iraqis were doing so? According to your 'logic', that could only be because they wanted the Americans to 'steal their wealth'.
 
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What a shame. 1,432 years after the birth of this Ummah, it's 1.5 Billion people are incapable of owning their own destiny. Neither can they save themselves from the tyrants amongst them nor can they defend themselves from foreign aggressions. The situation in Libya today shows the naked reality of our current pathetic predicament. Utter Incapableness. 1.5 Billion people sat and watched as tyrants destroyed fellow Muslims, 1.5 Billion people sit and watch as foreign predators attack Muslim lands left and right. Utter Humiliation. And its entirely our own making. We are reaping the fruits of what we have sown. And unless we change what we sow, we'll continue to reap these fruits of disgrace and humiliation.

We are reaping the fruits of tribalism, nationalism, secularism, socialism, monarchism. How do they taste now? I would love to get a chance to ask this to Mubarak, Ghadafi, and those who are about to follow, those tyrants who would watch the sufferings of the innocent while they dined in golden plates as if they are given immortality, those who said "the Quran and Sunnah are ancient things", Do you still taste the sweetness of the grape, I wonder?


To my fellow Muslim brothers/sisters, don't let our current state weaken nor depress you. Indeed, if you truly believe, know that Allah(swt) owns the heavens and the earth and everything in them. He(swt) governs all affairs with infinite wisdom and knowledge, verily Allah(swt) is the best of plotters.


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وَالْعَـقِبَةُ لِلْمُتَّقِينَ


 
The West only cares about (economic) interests, they don't view others as human beings but as objects or resources to exploit !!!!!!!
.

So why did so many (non-Muslim) 'western' soldiers die fighting the Serbs in order to stop them killing Muslims? Did the west fight the Serns so that they could get their hands on all the oil in Kosova?
 
What a shame. 1,432 years after the birth of this Ummah, it's 1.5 Billion people are incapable of owning their own destiny. Neither can they save themselves from the tyrants amongst them nor can they defend themselves from foreign aggressions. The situation in Libya today shows the naked reality of our current pathetic predicament. Utter Incapableness. 1.5 Billion people sat and watched as tyrants destroyed fellow Muslims, 1.5 Billion people sit and watch as foreign predators attack Muslim lands left and right. Utter Humiliation. And its entirely our own making. We are reaping the fruits of what we have sown. And unless we change what we sow, we'll continue to reap these fruits of disgrace and humiliation.

We are reaping the fruits of tribalism, nationalism, secularism, socialism, monarchism. How do they taste now? I would love to get a chance to ask this to Mubarak, Ghadafi, and those who are about to follow, those tyrants who would watch the sufferings of the innocent while they dined in golden plates as if they are given immortality, those who said "the Quran and Sunnah are ancient things", Do you still taste the sweetness of the grape, I wonder?


To my fellow Muslim brothers/sisters, don't let our current state weaken nor depress you. Indeed, if you truly believe, know that Allah(swt) owns the heavens and the earth and everything in them. He(swt) governs all affairs with infinite wisdom and knowledge, verily Allah(swt) is the best of plotters.


All undeniably true; the question is why?

I recently watched a programme on the TV about the history of Turkey and it seemed clear that Turkey turned a corner when Kemal Ataturk ‘modernised’ Turkey and the single most important thing he did to enable progress and prosperity was to ban Islam from politics. It seems to me that the reason Islamic countries fail so miserably is because the ordinary people think that the way you get what you want/need is to pray harder and they spend all their energies in pushing for even greater influence of Islam in governance which in turn pushes them back towards the 6th century instead of forward.​
 
Mercifully. I'm afraid it's not my IQ or knowledge that's in question, but your comprehension skills. Let me repeat. You were talking about bringing down the Israeli Zionist regime. In that context, Israel have not been defeated by Hizbullah or anybody else. It's still there, and despite your wishful thinking nothing is likely to change in the near future.

You were quoted the years in question and told their army was defeated. This is a fact and can be verified by anyone. Israel's army was defeated and forced to retreat. However sad that makes you you'll have to accept it. This completely refutes your earlier point here:

3) Because militarily it would be extremely difficult to do (as Arab armies have already discovered on several occasions).

It would not be difficult at all; well no more difficult than any other war. America's army is in a different league to Lebanon and Israel.
 
This thread just gets ever more hilarious. So the Libyan rebels were created by the US and Europeans, just like the Egyptian rfebels, the Yemeni rebels, the Tunisian rebels, the Bahraini rebels.... what planet do you live on?


I would like to point out that I am not saying the west has created the rebels from nothing. The people were angry and they wanted change, but anger can easily be misdirected. There is quite a long list of countries in South America alone were we have done this.
 
So why did so many (non-Muslim) 'western' soldiers die fighting the Serbs in order to stop them killing Muslims? Did the west fight the Serns so that they could get their hands on all the oil in Kosova?
Not many NATO soldiers died actually. You might be shocked to hear that the bombing preceded the ethnic cleansing and atrocities, which were, in fact, its anticipated consequence.

Kosovo already was an ugly place before NATO bombing with about 2000 killed on all sides, however, the rich Western documentary record reveals no changes of significance (no notable distribution of violence) until the NATO bombing began. The CIA-backed Albanian guerillas (officially "Kosovo Liberation Army" or KLA) had frankly explained that their goal was to kill Serbs so as to elicit a harsh reaction (from Serbs) that would lead to public support in the West for NATO intervention. It's a very complicated conflict like most conflicts are. One of my hobbies is reading books about international relations and world conflicts (apart from religion which of course is not a hobby but my lifestyle). I never respond without knowledge, my "emotional outbursts" have a reason.

I might come back later to address Trumble's totally inaccurate claims about the war in Iraq, I must go now.. the sun is shining here.


Peace/Salam to all...
 
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You were quoted the years in question and told their army was defeated. This is a fact and can be verified by anyone. Israel's army was defeated and forced to retreat. However sad that makes you you'll have to accept it. This completely refutes your earlier point here

Let me try and explain previous posts to you in words of the proverbial one syllable or less. I was actually informed that Israel (not the Israeli army) had been defeated, in the context of the elimination of the 'Zionist' state. As that state is clearly still there, equally clearly neither Hizbullah nor anybody else have defeated it. Comprende? I am actually quite happy to 'accept' that army was defeated in those expeditions, neither of which presented the slightest threat to the existence of the Israeli regime itself.

It would not be difficult at all; well no more difficult than any other war. America's army is in a different league to Lebanon and Israel.

OK, let's rephrase that; difficult without a huge number of civilian casualties.. including a great many of the people the exercise was presumably intended to 'save'. The Israelis defeated combined Arab armies determined to destroy them on three seperate occasions, only an idiot would think it an easy task for anybody. Oh, and they have nuclear weapons to chuck about if they get p*ss*d. Good enough for you?

Now, can we get back to Libya?
 
David Cameron is quoted as saying "....I do not believe we should stand aside while this dictator murders his own people", Its a shame the UK et al do not use the same humanitarian reasoning in other parts of the world. First that comes to mind is Zimbabwe.
 
Let me try and explain previous posts to you in words of the proverbial one syllable or less. I was actually informed that Israel (not the Israeli army) had been defeated, in the context of the elimination of the 'Zionist' state.

If you read through the thread only you have taken the words to mean that.

As that state is clearly still there, equally clearly neither Hizbullah nor anybody else have defeated it. Comprende? I am actually quite happy to 'accept' that army was defeated in those expeditions, neither of which presented the slightest threat to the existence of the Israeli regime itself.

Members of the Israeli government themselves spoke of the defeat of Israel. I think you're on your own as to interpreting what those words mean. The majority of people don't need to play word games or argue over something which is quite plain.
 
All undeniably true; the question is why?

I recently watched a programme on the TV about the history of Turkey and it seemed clear that Turkey turned a corner when Kemal Ataturk ‘modernised’ Turkey and the single most important thing he did to enable progress and prosperity was to ban Islam from politics. It seems to me that the reason Islamic countries fail so miserably is because the ordinary people think that the way you get what you want/need is to pray harder and they spend all their energies in pushing for even greater influence of Islam in governance which in turn pushes them back towards the 6th century instead of forward.

Thinker, that theory in truth carries no weight my friend, and to characterize Islam and Muslims in that fashion is a grave error in judgment and understanding of both the current as well as the historical reality of Islam and the Muslim Civilization. I can understand were you are coming from, the reference of the West's own unique experiences with religion and its path to "modernity" can't be applied nor used to explain the unique circumstances of the Islamic world and it is own unique course through destiny.

If Islam is the reason for the downwards and decline of the Muslim World, and if the complete adherence to Islam is a one way ticket to the 6th century, then how do you explain the evident truth that the Muslim Civilization is in fact the very thing that brought this world from darkness to light, and I'm not referring here in the spiritual realm, but in the Scientific and Technological fields. From Geometry, Medicine, Astronomy, to Chemistry, Botany to Arts and Architecture. How do you explain Avicenna, Rhazes, Albucasis, Ibn al-Baitar, al-Khwarizm, al-Batani, Al-Haytham, ibn-Majid, Ghazali and Ibn-Khaldum? How do you explain that to the backward West during its dark ages, Modernity, Enlightenment and Islam meant the same thing. Nay is there any decent scholar who would deny that the Islamic Civilization laid the seeds which made possible the modern advances in technology and science as well as Europe's own enlightenment?

It's this Eurocentrism and Euro-Colonialism-based world view that portrays Islam as Backward, incapable of coexisting with development, Modernity, as Anti-Education, Anti-Science, Anti-Technology. Its this same very world view that was spread to the Muslim masses and has handicapped Muslims for the last couple of centuries, the same Colonialism that preached to the Muslims, Leave behind Islam, the very Light that sparked the seeds of scholarship and science of the early Muslims, of the fruits of their labor which the world, the west in particular, enjoyed. Alas the Muslim world was paid back with what the history books testify to. I must say tho, it is nothing compared to what the indigenous people in all corners of the world suffered, but we'll not get into that. It's that Eurocentric Colonialism-based educational institutions that Attaturk as well as all the other tyrants and dictators, puppets to you, of the Muslim world graduated from.

Islam is not the problem my friend, the problem is Muslims, its Muslims who are ignorant of their own heritage, Muslims who believe shaving the beard, wearing a suit, drinking alcohol, smoking, fornicating, is the path to Modernity, for that is what the Modernized west does. Its Muslims who are unaware that the spirit that brought the west out of the dark ages, which we are going through at the moment, into its current state, in terms of technological and scientific advances, was an Islamic Spirit, the spirit of scholarship, of applied theory, of dedication and hard-work. Traits which Islam doesn't only approve but Promotes.

Muslims are now freeing themselves of those shackles of and re-discovering their own heritage and past. Through that re-discovery I hope we'll learn from our mistakes and be inspired and enriched by those great role models of our early generations and heritage to rise from this darkness back to the light and honor.


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That man can have nothing but what he strives for;
That (the fruit of) his striving will soon come in sight:
Then will he be rewarded with a reward complete.
Quran Chapter 53, Verses 39-41


 
Just a few thoughts on whats happening in the middle east.

1) which is more realistic to call whats happening in Libya a protest or a civil war?

2) Do you really think the west has anything to gain from this wave of protests when the status Quo was fine for them. Why would they destabilise a region they had worked so hard
on stabilising in order to secure free access to the oil. Doesn't it look very much like they were caught on the hop and are making up policy as they go along. To be honest it's an
American administrations nightmare especially if it spreads to Saudia Arabia.

3) Should the Saudi's be helping to quell the Bahrain protest's or are the Bahraini's not entitled to settle their dispute internally. Or did the do so on secret advice from the Americans.

4) is the middle east about to set the world on course for WW3 as if truth be known Middle east oil was the root cause of WW1 ( WW2 was the result of WW1 and the attempts to
totally humiliate the Germans in the peace deal.)
 
After the bombing of Serbia began, NATO commander Wesley Clark said that the vicious Serbian reaction had been fully anticipated. He frankly added that this was "not in any way" a concern of the political leadership. He also revealed that he had told Madeleine Albright that if NATO continued bombing Serbia, "almost certainly", the Serbs would "attack the civilian population" and that NATO wouldn't be able to do anything to prevent this because aerial bombardments can't achieve this goal.

Most importantly, the reason for the bombing of Serbia was not Milosevic's human rights violations in Kosovo before 1999. What mattered most was the need to impose NATO's will on a leader whose defiance, first in Bosnia and then in Kosovo, was undermining NATO's willpower and American and European diplomacy. In other words, the primary concern was the credibility of the "masters" which had already been made very clear by Clinton and Blair.

Since some of the most aggressive and powerful states in the world are the U.S, Israel and the UK (the West/ NATO), I feel like asking some tough questions:

1) Who or what gives them the right to be the "policeman of the world"?

2) Who or what gives them the right to decide which countries are allowed to possess weapons of mass destruction and which aren't?

3) Who or what gives them the right to use illegal (banned) weapons in Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon and the Occupied territories (in Palestine)?

4) Why do they get away with their crimes against humanity and their defiance of International law and international agreements? Why don't these same rules apply to the masters?
 
^^
Nobody with a conscience can deny all this; one would have to be either extremely ignorant or a total hypocrite to deny any of the statements or questions above.
 
David Cameron is quoted as saying "....I do not believe we should stand aside while this dictator murders his own people", Its a shame the UK et al do not use the same humanitarian reasoning in other parts of the world. First that comes to mind is Zimbabwe.
If they do it, it's always for humanitarian reasons or in self-defence - if others do it, it's always terrorism. That's the western mindset (also of the non-Muslim posters here).
 
It's a tragi-comedy when you think about it; Qadhafi is only oppressing certain groups or people in Libya, his OWN country - whereas western leaders have been oppressing and massacring millions of people across the world for decades and are doing it as we speak.

Suddenly Qadhafi has become "the most evil person in the world", or something like that? Hahahaha! :D

The majority of people are like sheep believing all these mind-boggling lies. Does anyone else wonder how human beings are capable of lowering themselves to this level? I certainly can't grasp it and wonder whether it's sheer ignorance or simply hypocrisy, or a combination of the two.

Those who have never cared one bit about innocent human lives in Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan now seem to be greatly concerned about their fellow human beings in Libya? What happened?

:w:
 
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Those who have never cared one bit about innocent human lives in Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan now seem to be greatly concerned about their fellow human beings in Libya? What happened?

:w:

It really is sad... Their only invading because theirs a self benefit in it, not "saving lives", otherwise Isreal would be wiped off the map right now.
 
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