Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w
Question for Siam: How does my view of Trinity fundamentally negate Tawheed?
---Depends on the definition of "revelation"......I will explain...give me a moment....
(and for this thread---I will try to confine my answer/thoughts to the incarantion aspect of the trinity)
1) The Uncreated and Created are infinitely distinct such that there can be no fusion or confusion of the two realities.
---This would be correct with the slight modification that the only (Independent) "reality" is God. ---but the point is not important for this discussion....
2) Creation has no natural or necessary relationship to the Uncreated. Creation is not a "part" or direct "emanation" of the Uncreated. Basically, you don't want to in any way say that Creation is simply reducible to the Uncreated.
---No, not quite, as there is a causal relationship---existence/creation would not "be" without God---Nor, as you pointed out, function without God. What I am emphasising is that the "nature" of this relationship is one-sided, with benefits accrued to creation without reciprocity. God is completely Independent. (Majesty of God)
"I would just like to add that just because God is omnipresent doesn't mean that God does the same thing at every place and time. In other words, it is possible for God to do something in one location that God is not doing at another such that God can manifest Himself specifically in a certain way in a certain place and time in a way that is not happening elsewhere (ala Moses' burning bush, pillar of fire/cloud before Israel, etc). I submit that God Himself is working in and through Jesus of Nazareth's submitted humanity such that Jesus has perfect awareness and receptivity of Divine Presence."
"This is all also why I believe that Jesus is the perfect "embodiment" of God's Word, who never failed to follow the live the Great Commandments of God. Jesus is like a living, breathing "sermon" from God Himself about how we are to live as human beings. Jesus was the perfect example of loving submission to God and God's Will."
---What I am saying is that though Divine-presence permeates creation and can effect creation (intervention), the resulting consequences/changes in creation do not effect Divine-presence which remains unchanged. This unchanging aspect creates the neccessary stability for our universe (or multiverses/multi dimensions) to function in harmony and balance.....for example, if we were to take the idea of an observer-dependent quantum system---if the observer is unchanging/stable---the results/consequences will be more constant than if the observer were ever-changing/unstable.
for example, human beings acquire knowledge, and this acquisition changes our awareness/perceptions. This change in us effects our subsequent interactions. This process does NOT apply to the Divine. The attributes of Perfection and All Knowing (and all others)remain unchanged.
This also means that God is independent of space-time. Any intervention by God in space-time has no effect on God. He remains unchanged. An intervention such as a revelation event is an interaction by the Divine to the created---but it is necessarily one-sided---it creates change in the "created" but the Divine remains unchanged/Independent. However, when it comes to us humans---the change is also "conditional"---that is, because of our (limited) free-will, the change (revelatory event) effects us only if we allow it to do so. Free-will gives us a certain amount of independence/seperation from God---that is, WE change ourselves (of our own free-will) God does not force change on us......This is why willing submission(Islam) is "necessary"---because without it, the transformative power of a revelatory event does not work.
To say it in a less elegant way-----the full potential to grasp the Divine-presence is dependent on us human beings---not on any difference in the quality of Divine-presence or revelatory event.
Because the transformative power of a revelatory event requires willing submission (Islam) in order to create change---the mode of revelation is not an essential factor. Therefore, incarnation (Divine decending into the created) is not a necessity in affecting the transformative power of a revelatory event.---what is essential is the willing submission (Islam) of the recievers of the event.
Therefore, when we consider Jesus Christ(pbuh) as a revelatory event (both himself and his book the Injil), what is important is not the mode of revelation ("Word"/Holy Spirit) but the condition/state of the recievers---in other words---were they Muslim (One's who submit to God). Because it is their condition/state that determines the transformative force of the revelatory event.
However, I do want to point out, that this does not mean God is some passive observer of events----intervention necessarily means involvement. God is intimately involved with his creation (because otherwise---as we have already established, creation would not function) and this would apply to interventions also. BUT God's involvement in creation does NOT make creation--or any part of creation---God/Divine.
Thus, The Quran and Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) were also revelatory events. The Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) may have functioned as the human agent of the revelation (Quran) which was the "Word" or God's speech. Thus when we recite the Quran, we could be reproducing/recreating God's speech through human agency. That does not make us, the Quran, or Prophet Muhammed(pbuh), --Divine/GOD/GODS.
I amy not have expressed myself well---so, please ask if any clarification is needed.......:embarrass
Question for Siam: How does my view of Trinity fundamentally negate Tawheed?
---Depends on the definition of "revelation"......I will explain...give me a moment....
(and for this thread---I will try to confine my answer/thoughts to the incarantion aspect of the trinity)
1) The Uncreated and Created are infinitely distinct such that there can be no fusion or confusion of the two realities.
---This would be correct with the slight modification that the only (Independent) "reality" is God. ---but the point is not important for this discussion....
2) Creation has no natural or necessary relationship to the Uncreated. Creation is not a "part" or direct "emanation" of the Uncreated. Basically, you don't want to in any way say that Creation is simply reducible to the Uncreated.
---No, not quite, as there is a causal relationship---existence/creation would not "be" without God---Nor, as you pointed out, function without God. What I am emphasising is that the "nature" of this relationship is one-sided, with benefits accrued to creation without reciprocity. God is completely Independent. (Majesty of God)
"I would just like to add that just because God is omnipresent doesn't mean that God does the same thing at every place and time. In other words, it is possible for God to do something in one location that God is not doing at another such that God can manifest Himself specifically in a certain way in a certain place and time in a way that is not happening elsewhere (ala Moses' burning bush, pillar of fire/cloud before Israel, etc). I submit that God Himself is working in and through Jesus of Nazareth's submitted humanity such that Jesus has perfect awareness and receptivity of Divine Presence."
"This is all also why I believe that Jesus is the perfect "embodiment" of God's Word, who never failed to follow the live the Great Commandments of God. Jesus is like a living, breathing "sermon" from God Himself about how we are to live as human beings. Jesus was the perfect example of loving submission to God and God's Will."
---What I am saying is that though Divine-presence permeates creation and can effect creation (intervention), the resulting consequences/changes in creation do not effect Divine-presence which remains unchanged. This unchanging aspect creates the neccessary stability for our universe (or multiverses/multi dimensions) to function in harmony and balance.....for example, if we were to take the idea of an observer-dependent quantum system---if the observer is unchanging/stable---the results/consequences will be more constant than if the observer were ever-changing/unstable.
for example, human beings acquire knowledge, and this acquisition changes our awareness/perceptions. This change in us effects our subsequent interactions. This process does NOT apply to the Divine. The attributes of Perfection and All Knowing (and all others)remain unchanged.
This also means that God is independent of space-time. Any intervention by God in space-time has no effect on God. He remains unchanged. An intervention such as a revelation event is an interaction by the Divine to the created---but it is necessarily one-sided---it creates change in the "created" but the Divine remains unchanged/Independent. However, when it comes to us humans---the change is also "conditional"---that is, because of our (limited) free-will, the change (revelatory event) effects us only if we allow it to do so. Free-will gives us a certain amount of independence/seperation from God---that is, WE change ourselves (of our own free-will) God does not force change on us......This is why willing submission(Islam) is "necessary"---because without it, the transformative power of a revelatory event does not work.
To say it in a less elegant way-----the full potential to grasp the Divine-presence is dependent on us human beings---not on any difference in the quality of Divine-presence or revelatory event.
Because the transformative power of a revelatory event requires willing submission (Islam) in order to create change---the mode of revelation is not an essential factor. Therefore, incarnation (Divine decending into the created) is not a necessity in affecting the transformative power of a revelatory event.---what is essential is the willing submission (Islam) of the recievers of the event.
Therefore, when we consider Jesus Christ(pbuh) as a revelatory event (both himself and his book the Injil), what is important is not the mode of revelation ("Word"/Holy Spirit) but the condition/state of the recievers---in other words---were they Muslim (One's who submit to God). Because it is their condition/state that determines the transformative force of the revelatory event.
However, I do want to point out, that this does not mean God is some passive observer of events----intervention necessarily means involvement. God is intimately involved with his creation (because otherwise---as we have already established, creation would not function) and this would apply to interventions also. BUT God's involvement in creation does NOT make creation--or any part of creation---God/Divine.
Thus, The Quran and Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) were also revelatory events. The Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) may have functioned as the human agent of the revelation (Quran) which was the "Word" or God's speech. Thus when we recite the Quran, we could be reproducing/recreating God's speech through human agency. That does not make us, the Quran, or Prophet Muhammed(pbuh), --Divine/GOD/GODS.
I amy not have expressed myself well---so, please ask if any clarification is needed.......:embarrass
