How does the Qur'an represent Christian beliefs?

[Grace Seeker]

Now, how can we trust human observations and interpretations regarding the fundamentals of faith in God ???

With respect, that seems to be a much bigger problem for you than I find it to be. For me, the problem is how to trust as an infallible revelation a book that claims to be from an all knowing God and yet denies as true an event that is attested to by contemperaneous authors of widely differing backgrounds and interests (even conflicting agendas) and that is recognized as fact by historians of every religious persuasion including some Muslims.

However, the disagreement in our source of authority not withstanding, the question of How the Qur'an represents Christian beliefs remains. Whether you accept our beliefs as true, I continue to assert that to reject them you must first actually express what they are rather than some fictious strawman that does not accurately portray what we believe and then believe that in rejecting the strawman you have reason to reject Christianity. Thus far in this thread, no Muslim has yet to speak of the Trinity with an understanding of it that fits the Christian understanding of it. Certainly the Qur'an does NOT. As I've said before:

So, unless you use it to refer to the same thing that we mean by the term, then this discussion is pointless. What we mean by Trinity is that we observe that there is just one God who exists in three persons. We do NOT mean by the term "Trinity" that of God being "One of 3." So, I don't know what you are referencing above, but it isn't the Christian Trinity.

 

[Grace Seeker]

the whole point is made irrelevant as ultimately conflict is the only rout left to ascertain truth.

I hope that this is not what you truly believe. Surely there are better ways to ascertain truth than by conflict. One might inevitably face conflict because of one's belief in a particular truth and commitment to follow it, but truth seekers should not be conflict seekers.

 

[M.I.A.]

I hope that this is not what you truly believe. Surely there are better ways to ascertain truth than by conflict. One might inevitably face conflict because of one's belief in a particular truth and commitment to follow it, but truth seekers should not be conflict seekers.

lol, from all i know that is what i believe.
conflict is every part of society, from use of language to mannerisms to character. by the time you learn to control these parts of yourself you realize the benefit and disadvantages of being on autopilot.

my twisted world view

 

[Grace Seeker]

Summary of our discussion here, there is no middle way between Muslims and Christians on Trinity of Trinity plus Mother of Son subject

5-116. And when Allah will say, 'O Issa son of Maryam! Did you tell to people, 'make me and my mother two gods besides Allah’? He will submit 'bellowed be You, it is not justified for me that I should tell the thing to which I have no reach. 'If I had said that You would surely have known it You know what is in my heart and I do not know what is in Your knowledge. Undoubtedly, it is You only, Knower of, all hidden things.

Before I respond, I seek clarification.

1) Is this passage from the Qur'an representing that Christians believe Mary is a God.

2) Is this passage from the Qur'an representing that Christians believe Jesus is an additional God?

3) Is this passage from the Qur'an representing that either of those beliefs is an actual teaching of the Christian Church, or might it be referring to just a small isolated group of people perhaps known to Muhammad, but forgotten to history?

 

[Chavundur]

As You and I know,Most of Christians seek help from Mary ( You can say that they are not aware what Hypostatic Union is), I watched a lot of movies, saw a lot of Christians, entered a lot of Church ,I saw Mary statutes, a men or woman before her and praying Oh Holy Mary .. I am not sure what He or She imply in his or her hearth but I also listened a lot of sentences what they mean. Dear Woodrow answered this question asked by Sol Invictus in that topic you quoted my message from. (page 4 or 5 )

However some early Christians did see Mary as part of the Trinity. Although in time they did get labelled heretics by the Catholic Church.



SOURCE

Mary was worshipped by at least some early Christians. There have also been occasional revivals of this belief.



SOURCE



SOURCE

Those movements show the validity of the Surah mentioned above.



The simple fact is There have been and still are some who call themselves Christian that worship Mary as a god. I do acknowledge that this view is not held by most modern Christians. But it was a belief in the past, even though it was eventually condemned as heresy.

 

[Grace Seeker]

As You and I know,Most of Christians seek help from Mary ( You can say that they are not aware what Hypostatic Union is), I watched a lot of movies, saw a lot of Christians, entered a lot of Church ,I saw Mary statutes, a men or woman before her and praying Oh Holy Mary .. I am not sure what He or She imply in his or her hearth but I also listened a lot of sentences what they mean. Dear Woodrow answered this question asked by Sol Invictus in that topic you quoted my message from. (page 4 or 5 )

But this doesn't answer my questions.

 

[Chavundur]

Grace Seeker, If You seek answer, you can check page four , I think that answer will be better than my observations.

http://www.islamicboard.com/showthread.php?t=134305666&page=4

 

[Grace Seeker]

Grace Seeker, If You seek answer, you can check page four , I think that answer will be better than my observations.

http://www.islamicboard.com/showthread.php?t=134305666&page=4

I've read page four. I appreciate Woodrow's comments there. And while they relate, they don't actually answer my questions. So, thank-you for referencing them, but I'm still waiting for them to be specifically addessed.

 

[M.I.A.]

Before I respond, I seek clarification.

1) Is this passage from the Qur'an representing that Christians believe Mary is a God.

2) Is this passage from the Qur'an representing that Christians believe Jesus is an additional God?

3) Is this passage from the Qur'an representing that either of those beliefs is an actual teaching of the Christian Church, or might it be referring to just a small isolated group of people perhaps known to Muhammad, but forgotten to history?

on the day of judgement when questions are asked, that is the question asked.

why it is asked?
it is asked because people will have set the prophet and his mother peace and blessings be upon them as partners to god.
it doesn't matter if it is any group of people in particular or organization, every individual will have his/her own questions.

anybody pointing fingers at others as the source of there misguidance will be fairly dealt with.

the cause of religion was to worship allah swt alone and all guidance was sent to bring people closer to that true path of worship and belief in that god, the acknowledgement of prophets, there teachings, there lives and relationships is not the same between prophets... the message they brought forward with them was.

 

[Grace Seeker]

on the day of judgement when questions are asked, that is the question asked.

What is the question that will be asked? Surely Allah will not ask me: "O Issa son of Maryam! Did you tell to people, 'make me and my mother two gods besides Allah’?" for my name is not Issa.

But your response does not address my questions either, for I am not asking what Allah will do on the day of judgment, I am seeking to understand to whom this verse is referring. Is it saying that this is what is taught by Christianity (as a whole, not just a small subset who are themselves divergent from the norm)? Is the Qur'an to be understood as representing Christian beliefs by this passage?

I'm asking 3 simple and direct "Yes" or "No" questions and getting anything but simple and direct answers.

 

[M.I.A.]

What is the question that will be asked? Surely Allah will not ask me: "O Issa son of Maryam! Did you tell to people, 'make me and my mother two gods besides Allah’?" for my name is not Issa.

But your response does not address my questions either, for I am not asking what Allah will do on the day of judgment, I am seeking to understand to whom this verse is referring. Is it saying that this is what is taught by Christianity (as a whole, not just a small subset who are themselves divergent from the norm)? Is the Qur'an to be understood as representing Christian beliefs by this passage?

I'm asking 3 simple and direct "Yes" or "No" questions and getting anything but simple and direct answers.

it is referring to you and me.

i cannot imagine what the question was.
i know my answer already..

all praise is due to allah alone
i believe in his books
his angels
his messengers
the day of ressurection
the day of judgement

heaven and hell.

i have accepted islam as the religion for me and have taken the quran as my criterion for judgement.

for me to answer all your questions, you must first define "christians" as used in your sentences.

 

[Chavundur]

I see a clarification in that verse, Its luminous light illuminates minds of believers and says Allah's knowledge is free from time, He has already known all answers also He knows all questions to be asked, one of them should be that one, " Oh Jesus , I created you , Would It be possible to let you make such big claim when all your particles and cells in my sovereignty, when your tongue is working in my power " No , thousands of times no, So Why He asks this question, there are thousands of mysteries and answers of course, showing his mercy and judging his servants with his mercy, saying them What was your source, Would there be some deceitful intentions, If there were, Who was the leader, Answer now, first one - did you do, No My Lord , You are away from this, second one, then third one, and one answer starts with alas, forgive me.

 

[Woodrow]

Before I respond, I seek clarification.

Fair enough.

1) Is this passage from the Qur'an representing that Christians believe Mary is a God.

That is one thought that can be gleaned form it. But, it may not be all that is contained in it. It can also be an affirmation that any human, no matter how good is not God(swt) and could never honestly claim to be.

2) Is this passage from the Qur'an representing that Christians believe Jesus is an additional God?

It does seem to be that

3) Is this passage from the Qur'an representing that either of those beliefs is an actual teaching of the Christian Church, or might it be referring to just a small isolated group of people perhaps known to Muhammad, but forgotten to history?

Since those do not represent the beliefs of all who call themselves Christian, my conclusion is it refers to Christians of the era and region as those would have been the representation of what was considered Christian in at least one time and area.

Now to say who were/are Christians could easily come into a long drawn out debate and could derail this thread even faster than I usually go off topic.

 

[siam]

For Muslims---

Christian history is complicated and while many of todays Christians might believe their (Trinitarian) doctrines comes straight from heaven ---this may perhaps not be historically valid.
Trinitarian Christianity developed among many powerfully competing Christian and Non-Christian doctrines and it was only politics that resulted in one set of doctrines becomming more "mainstream" than others.
The "nature of Christ" is a subject that has been hotly disputed (as well as the position of Mary(pbuh))
Todays Trinitarian view of Jesus Christ(pbuh) is a result of Calcedon--and the theory is apparently called dyophysitism---but there were comepting theories to this namely monophysites, and miaphysites. ---so whats the difference between all of these?----As a Muslim, I find it hard to figure out---but to the Christians of the time---these were serious differences---and they fought over them.
dyophysitism---Jesus Christ(pbuh) has 2 natures and 2 wills (Divine and Human)
monophysites---Jesus Christs (pbuh) has 1 nature and 1 will ((Divine in human form)

The Chalcedonians won out in the end---but there was a time around the 7th century when Pope Honorius I tried to compromise by adopting a new theory called monothelitism---which posits that Jesus Chrsit(pbuh) has 2 natures but 1 will.
This compromise would have brought both the Eastern and Western Churches together into one church---but it was not to be---The Pope was condemned after his death and the Western Church went back to Chalcedonian theory.
Today there are apparently 2 theories---the Chalcedonian type and the miaphysites---which some feel is the same as Chalcedon, and others feel it is a version of monophysites---quite a mess........

Christian doctrines have not followed a clear, straight path in their development and any Christian who says otherwise does not know their own history.....


By the way---feel free to make corrections as this is not an area I am familiar with..............

 

[siam]

Lest anyone is under the impression that Christians themselves fully understand their own doctrines, here is something from wikipedia----

"Much has been said about the difficulties in understanding the Greek technical terms used in these controversies. The main words are ousia (οὐσία, 'substance'), physis (φύσις, 'nature'), hypostasis (ὑπόστασις) and prosopon (πρόσωπον, 'person'). Even in Greek, their meanings can overlap somewhat. These difficulties became even more exaggerated when these technical terms were translated into other languages. In Syriac, physis was translated as kyānâ (ܟܝܢܐ) and hypostasis was qnômâ (ܩܢܘܡܐ). However, in the Persian Church, or the East Syriac tradition, qnoma was taken to mean nature, thereby confounding the issue further. The shades of meaning are even more blurred between these words, and they could not be used in such a philosophical way as their Greek counterparts."

Even today different Christians have different understanding of many aspects of their doctrines.....

 

[YieldedOne]

Lemme ask this to you, Woodrow.

Do you feel that there is any MISrepresentation of the Christian faith AT ALL in the Qur'an? In other words, do you believe that there is any representation of Christianity in the Qur'an that does NOT conform to a historical perspective of core doctrines of the Christian faith?

I've gotta see this answer.

 

[YieldedOne]

GS: Is this passage from the Qur'an representing that either of those beliefs is an actual teaching of the Christian Church, or might it be referring to just a small isolated group of people perhaps known to Muhammad, but forgotten to history?

Woodrow: Since those do not represent the beliefs of all who call themselves Christian, my conclusion is it refers to Christians of the era and region as those would have been the representation of what was considered Christian in at least one time and area.


YO: If what you say is the case, Woodrow, then doesn't this mean that, with respect to this particular Quranic verse and teaching, it's formally IRRELEVANT to genuine criticism of modern, orthodox Christianity by and large? Basically, if this teaching is not seen as misrepresentative (which I think could be said), it's at best outdated and irrelevant. What say you?

 

[Al-manar]

Peace

I seek clarification.

1) Is this passage from the Qur'an representing that Christians believe Mary is a God.?

this passage represent the people that give to Mary (worship , veneration anytime,anywhere) that is due to Allah alone ..

2) Is this passage from the Qur'an representing that Christians believe Jesus is an additional God?

this passage represent the people that worship Jesus(anytime, anywhere) ,a worship that is due to Allah alone....

3) Is this passage representing the Collyridianism trinity ?

No, it doesn't.

4) Is this passage representing the orthodox trinity ?

No it doesn't ,neither is there intention ,in the verse ,to formulate any ...

the answers to those Questions need more elaboration ,and detailed analysis of :

1- What is (to take god ) means ,what would constitutes a false god ,according to the Quran ?

2- linguestic reasons the verse is not formulatimng trinity; what is the word mentioned in the verse (men doon aka instead )with respect to shirk, would convey , and what the word (Maa aka with) with respect to shirk would convey?

3- what the contemporary christians to the prophet around and in Mecca would say about the trinity?

for the narrow time ,such elaborations will be given insha,Allah in details ...either here in the thread or in my thread in future posts inshaAllah ....

 

[Woodrow]

Lemme ask this to you, Woodrow.

Do you feel that there is any MISrepresentation of the Christian faith AT ALL in the Qur'an? In other words, do you believe that there is any representation of Christianity in the Qur'an that does NOT conform to a historical perspective of core doctrines of the Christian faith?

I've gotta see this answer.

The Quran does have a very accurate representation and historical perspective of Early Christianity and to some extent the Catholicism and Greek Orthodox of today.

Let us look at the many sects of Christianity that existed between the years 100-600 each of them was considered by the adherents as being the true Christianity.

Catholicism which was the dominate belief and followed by the most if not all Christian and dominated the Greeks and Romans. It lasted until the great schism of 1054 When it divided into Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox. Mary veneration was a very large part of it and continues to be until today even to many non-Catholic's of today it appears that both do worship Mary. As veneration of Mary was/is one of the most visible practices of both churches.

Christian devotion to Mary goes back to the 2nd century and predates the emergence of a specific Marian liturgical system in the 5th century, following the First Council of Ephesus in 431. The Council itself was held at a church in Ephesus which had been dedicated to Mary about a hundred years before.[35][36][37] In Egypt the veneration of Mary had started in the 3rd century and the term Theotokos was used by Origen, the Alexandrian Father of the Church.[38]

The earliest known Marian prayer (the Sub tuum praesidium, or Beneath Thy Protection) is from the 3rd century (perhaps 270), and its text was rediscovered in 1917 on a papyrus in Egypt.[39][40] Following the Edict of Milan in 313, by the 5th century artistic images of Mary began to appear in public and larger churches were being dedicated to Mary, e.g. S. Maria Maggiore in Rome.[41][42][43]

Over the centuries, devotion and veneration to Mary has varied greatly among Christian traditions. For instance, while Protestants show scant attention to Marian prayers or devotions, of all the saints whom the Orthodox venerate, the most honored is Mary, who is considered "more honorable than the Cherubim and more glorious than the Seraphim."[44]

Orthodox theologian Sergei Bulgakov wrote: "Love and veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary is the soul of Orthodox piety. A faith in Christ which does not include his mother is another faith, another Christianity from that of the Orthodox church."[45]

source

Now add to that:

In 300 A.D., the Blessed Virgin Mary was worshipped as a Mother Goddess in the Christian sect Collyridianism, which was found throughout Saudi Arabia. Collyridianism was made up mostly of women followers and female priests. Followers of Collyridianism were known to make bread and wheat offerings to the Virgin Mary, along with other sacrificial practices. The cult was heavily condemned as heretical and schismatic by the Roman Catholic Church and was preached against by Epiphanius of Salamis, who exposed the group in his recollective writings titled Panarion.

SOURCE

While that particular sect did get condemned as being heretical that does not mean all of it was considered to be in error

The Bible refers to the personified Heavenly Wisdom (Hagia Sophia) in feminine terms. Sophia is venerated as the Virgin Sophia in Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy, as well as in Christian Mysticism. Most Christians who are Catholics believe that "God the Father" is masculine and that Jesus was a man; and further, that "the Church" is the female counterpart of God and is the Bride of Jesus.

Some Christians do not agree on this teaching and assert that God subsumes and transcends both masculinity and femininity. From their point of view the grammatical gender used to address the deity is a mere convention, and the masculine designations for the persons of the Trinity characterize a relationship and not gender, per se. However, this is a relatively recent phenomenon, and as such, might have constituted heresy for most of the early history of Christianity.[citation needed]

In many languages, such as Syriac, the word translated "spirit" takes the feminine gender. In early Christian literature in these languages, the Holy Spirit is therefore discussed in feminine terms, especially before c. A.D. 400.[23]

SOURCE

The role of Mary shifted to the early concept of "The Holy Spirit" which in early Christianity was feminine. In a very real sense some perhaps even many Early Christians did worship Mary or a personification similar to Mary. although they do claim it is veneration and not worship. It does seem that the concept of the "Holy Spirit" did/does carry a strong resemblance to the early worship of Mary.

The veneration/worship of Mary has very early roots.

In Rome, with massive solemnity, the canons of Santa Maria Maggiore took down from the altar the painting of Mary and Child known as Salus Populi Romani (Safety of the Roman people). Holding high the holy, red-brown painting, done on wood and attributed by Catholics to St. Luke,

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,857668,00.html#ixzz1L6TYDSXX


By this action at the end of the Marian Year, Pius XII strengthened the ancient Marian movement, which is spreading with new vigor among Catholics. The theological foundations of Mary-veneration were laid in the first century A.D. In the Catacombs, Rome's persecuted Christians painted pictures of the Virgin, emphasizing her sanctity. Thereafter, a long line of saints—among them Irenaeus, Ambrose, Jerome and Augustine—laid stress on her sinlessness. In a poem, St. Ephrem (300-379) had Mary addressing God: "Let Heaven uphold me in its embrace, because I am more honored than it. Heaven is only your throne, it isn't your mother. How much more a mother of a king is to be honored than a king's throne."

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,857668,00.html#ixzz1L6Sx1iVd

SOURCE

There is very little if any difference between veneration and worship. To a non adherent the difference is not there. Veneration=Worship. Veneration of Mary goes back to the first Century and continues to today.

Mary in Early Christian Theology

In the writings of the early church fathers, Mary is mentioned only occasionally and primarily in contrast to Eve. Justin Martyr (d. c.165) and Irenaeus (d. c.202) contrasted Mary's obedience with Eve's disobedience.

The apocryphal Gospel of James (as seen above), Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and especially Athanasius affirmed Mary's perpetual virginity. This doctrine was accepted by both Western and Eastern Churches from the fifth century onwards.

The doctrine of Mary as Theotokos (God-bearer) arose in Alexandria and was probably first used by Origen. It became common in the fourth century, was opposed by Nestorius, and accepted at the Council of Ephesus in 431. Mary played a lesser role in the West than in the East at this time. Western theologians like St. Ambrose primarily spoke of Mary as a "type" or symbol of the Church.

The doctrine of the bodily Assumption of Mary was formally developed by St. Gregory of Tours (d. 594), although it had been present in apocryphal tests since the late fourth century. The Feast of the Assumption became widespread in the sixth century, and sermons on that occasion tended to emphasize Mary's power in heaven.

source

As an after thought, I am not the only one who believes Mariology is ancient:

Welcome to the world of Byzantine Iconography !


Byzantine Iconography – is the oldest and only Christian art form survived unchanged for the past 2000 years.

The term 'icon' - icona, ikona, икона (Russian) comes from the Greek word eikona (εἰκών, eikōn, ) which simply means image. The Eastern Orthodox believe that the first icons of Christ and the Virgin Mary were painted by St. Luke the Evangelist.

source

Also Remember that Catholicism/Orthodoxy are the oldest forms of Christianities and about 1/2 of today's Christians are of them.

 

[Woodrow]

GS: Is this passage from the Qur'an representing that either of those beliefs is an actual teaching of the Christian Church, or might it be referring to just a small isolated group of people perhaps known to Muhammad, but forgotten to history?

Woodrow: Since those do not represent the beliefs of all who call themselves Christian, my conclusion is it refers to Christians of the era and region as those would have been the representation of what was considered Christian in at least one time and area.


YO: If what you say is the case, Woodrow, then doesn't this mean that, with respect to this particular Quranic verse and teaching, it's formally IRRELEVANT to genuine criticism of modern, orthodox Christianity by and large? Basically, if this teaching is not seen as misrepresentative (which I think could be said), it's at best outdated and irrelevant. What say you?

The Christianity most prevalent at that time was: Catholicism, Marianites and Collyridians, ... Catholocism still exists, The Marianites were absorbed by Catholicism and became the "Marianites of the Holy Cross order" which still exists as an Order of Catholic Nuns, Collyridians were judged to be heretical, although the teaching of them was/is almost indistinguishable from the Marianites and Catholics.

So it is neither irrelevant nor Outdated. It was and continues to be the belief and teaching of the Largest Christian denomination but not all denominations. Although officially they call it veneration, what many put into practice is Worship of Mary.