The American Dream

[Mister Agenda]

funny thing is that all these rights only imply on a certain type of people - the americans ofcourse anyone other than that you can step on them with your shoe.

It is a sad truth that every people has to stand up for their own rights, you can't count on the more powerful nations to be forebearing. I wish the USA were an exception to that rule, but I know full well that most of our 'foriegn adventures' have been fueled by either special interests or short-sighted self-interest. It's the way of nations, I hope that changes in the future, but generally the most you can hope for from a government is that it won't step on its own citizens too hard with its shoe.

 

[Who Am I?]

It is a sad truth that every people has to stand up for their own rights, you can't count on the more powerful nations to be forebearing. I wish the USA were an exception to that rule, but I know full well that most of our 'foriegn adventures' have been fueled by either special interests or short-sighted self-interest. It's the way of nations, I hope that changes in the future, but generally the most you can hope for from a government is that it won't step on its own citizens too hard with its shoe.

Government has lost sight of what it is really supposed to do. The original framers of the US Constitution only intended for limited government, and its original purpose was to protect the rights of its citizens, not to tell the citizens what their rights are and to control every aspect of their lives. The government should not be making your decisions for you, but sadly there are far too many people now who rely on the government to tell them what to do in their lives. Our founding fathers would weep at what we as a nation have become.

 

[May Ayob]

It is a sad truth that every people has to stand up for their own rights, you can't count on the more powerful nations to be forebearing.

Peace be to you Brother,
Yes you are right no one can expect the so called "powerful" countries to stand up for their own rights , but if these countries are eating up all my rights as a human being and left my country a mess after colonization , then i wouldn't expect something more better to offer.
Didn't mean to offend you
Peace be to you.

 

[Mister Agenda]

I'm not offended. You're right. And most Americans aren't even aware of much of what their government does in their name that we would be appalled by. What makes it even sadder is that in the long run I think it makes us worse off as a nation, so we don't even gain anything from it. Its for nothing.

 

[Futuwwa]

The rich are always screwing over the poor. That's nothing new. Just look at history. Always have, always will.

And the poor in America largely accept it because they've been deluded to believe that 1) The rich are rich because of their own efforts, 2) The rich get rich by creating wealth for all of us, and 3) You too can become one of them by working hard enough.

The American Dream is the new opium of the people. If people would wake up from that haze, poop would hit the fan. Looking at in what a perverse direction American capitalism is developing, I wouldn't be surprised if the USA would undergo a Communist revolution after a few decades.

 

[Who Am I?]

And the poor in America largely accept it because they've been deluded to believe that 1) The rich are rich because of their own efforts, 2) The rich get rich by creating wealth for all of us, and 3) You too can become one of them by working hard enough.

The American Dream is the new opium of the people. If people would wake up from that haze, poop would hit the fan. Looking at in what a perverse direction American capitalism is developing, I wouldn't be surprised if the USA would undergo a Communist revolution after a few decades.

It's already starting to happen, or least a move toward socialism. A big concern during the Presidential election was Obama's "share the wealth" tax system that he talked about implementing. A lot of people (myself included) decried it as "socialism" (which I still think it is). It hasn't happened yet, but Congress is talking about raising taxes across the board to alleviate some of the crippling debt we face as a nation.

I think the people of the USA as a whole are too afraid of the government to really stand up and demand change. Plus, too many people now rely on the government to provide them with basic necessities, and they don't want to do anything to upset that balance.

It's just another form of slavery where people are so dependent upon the government that they will do whatever they are told without thinking about it. The government, for their part, is not interested in helping the poor better themselves. They want to keep the poor indebted to them so that they can stay in power.

 

[Futuwwa]

Well, now that you are a Muslim, it would be appropriate if you stopped talking about "Socialism" as if it was a bad thing

 

[IAmZamzam]

1. The American government does not have a monopoly on oppression and dishonesty so I would like it if people stopped talking as though it did. In every country politics is the only profession which isn't merely a cesspool but more or less a synonym for the word "cesspool". This is a given. Wherever you live, if you think your own country's government is a great deal less corrupt then ours, stop and consider the coincidence that it just so happens to be your own you trust more. I wonder why that could be?

2. There is no "American dream" and there never was. This is why no one can adequately define it, or at least in the same way as any other person who's attempted to. The phrase never meant anything at all, they're just more buzzwords like "freedom" and "change" that politicians use to semantically manipulate people. It's jargon, ignore it. No one that I've talked to here takes the phrase very seriously and it's not like it comes up a lot in conversation even among die hard jingoists.

Speaking of which, I'm a little surprised and impressed that for once a thread on anything even vaguely related to the topic of America has made it two pages with--almost--no prejudice expressed toward the country. We are to nationality what Jews are to ethnicity: the only group that all kinds of bigots on the subject everywhere universally agree they hate. Except that I don't think even Jews are as spat upon just for being born the way they are as Americans. I'm just glad I'm not an American Jew!

 

[Futuwwa]

Uh, the American Dream is, or at least was, a very real motivator and driving idea. It's not particularly reality-based, but that doesn't stop people from believing in it and acting and behaving accordingly.

 

[May Ayob]

Speaking of which, I'm a little surprised and impressed that for once a thread on anything even vaguely related to the topic of America has made it two pages with--almost--no prejudice expressed toward the country

Salaam
What do you mean ? Could you please clarify?
I would appreciate it.
Salaam.

 

[May Ayob]

1. The American government does not have a monopoly on oppression and dishonesty so I would like it if people stopped talking as though it did.

Then why do they make all the speeches about "Universal Humanity" and "Santity of Life" "Freedom by all mean"
Why do they get themselves involved in pretty much everything that happens in this planet in the name of "Human Rights"
Don't you think they should be concerned with their own country, Rather than acting like big bully that decide what other countries have to do?
If you don't want us doing that - Then please tell your people to stop speaking about the so- called "American Value they posses and they can't seem to leave"
Salaam

 

[May Ayob]

By the way....
I didn't mean to offend you , I am merely expressing my thoughts ..
They maybe wrong , so please don't take as criticism or anything like that

Salaam

 

[GuestFellow]

Then why do they make all the speeches about "Universal Humanity" and "Santity of Life" "Freedom by all mean"
Why do they get themselves involved in pretty much everything that happens in this planet in the name of "Human Rights"
Don't you think they should be concerned with their own country, Rather than acting like big bully that decide what other countries have to do?
If you don't want us doing that - Then please tell your people to stop speaking about the so- called "American Value they posses and they can't seem to leave"
Salaam

Salaam,

There is a lecture by Noam Chomsky on this.

US Imperialism

Some Americans and even some westerners that I've met have this belief that their "way of life" is best for everyone and understand how democracy works. This belief is deeply ingrained within society.

Noam Chomsky on Newsnight BBC

^ Here is a good demonstration. The belief that the west have some sort of obligation to help other people.

The American government simply exploits this belief in order to conquer other countries and behave like a tyrant. Most countries would do this if they were in a position of great power.

 

[IAmZamzam]

It's not that your thoughts are wrong, May: they're offensive because they're shooting the messenger. I don't have any people and neither do you. Neither does anyone. There's only the individual person.

If you're mad at a government then don't take it out on that country's populace. Do you think we're not bullied too? Ever hear of this thing called The Patriot Act?

This is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about with my last post!

 

[Who Am I?]

Well, now that you are a Muslim, it would be appropriate if you stopped talking about "Socialism" as if it was a bad thing

Small steps, brother. Maybe I'll get there one day. But you can't undo 35 years of one way of thinking in just a few weeks. These things take time, inshallah.

I personally have been an advocate of isolationism when it comes to US foreign policy. I have never liked how we have to be the world's "democracy police" and run off to help some random obscure country to set up a democratic government because "they need freedom". Who says? Us? The West? The rest of the world? My mother?

If a nation wants to overthrow their own government, they should be allowed to do so without any intervention from anyone. I don't see where any nation has the right to intervene in another sovereign nation's affairs without permission to do so, and even then I'm not sure I would advocate intervention.

This attitude of arrogance and "we know what's best for you uncivilized savages, so we're here to help you" is precisely the main reason that the West (and the USA in particular) is so widely hated in most parts of the world, particularly the Islamic world. All you have to do is look at the legacy of colonialism in Africa and Asia to see what effects that kind of foreign policy has. In my opinion, the so-called "War on Terror" is just another form of colonialism, this time to exploit oil-rich nations who happen to be majority Islamic.

Apaprently, we really didn't learn anything from Vietnam...

 

[May Ayob]

It's not that your thoughts are wrong, May: they're offensive because they're shooting the messenger

Salaam
I am sorry for it being Offensive , i truly am .. but as i said before i had nothing better to offer , I am not against the american people as that would be wrong but I am against the governments all of them except if they changed their ways and started looking at people as an equal to them i mean last time i heard Sarah Palin something like this:
We are the best nation and that is Nothing to apologize for...
Why would some one declaring such a statement ever care about people or their "rights"...

I wouldn't be taking any "Humanitarian" aid from America because i know they only do it for their interest , It's just that Arrogance is truly not something to deny... expecially Americas Arrogance and it's policy towards "Foreign people"

Also , let's be fair the same people America is bombing are the same people that work in labor for companys like Gap and American Eagle what do you expect me to say:
WOohoo America!? Sorry it wouldn;t coming out for me.

don't have any people and neither do you. Neither does anyone. There's only the individual person.

True as i said before , I wouldn't have said that Except that i mean really isn't this the same way America Adresses the rest of the world there will hardly be any speech you listen from any of the country's Presidents without mention the typical "We Americans: :God bless America" .. Blah Blah Blah

Thank you for your Tolerance .. Didn't mean to offend you.

 

[May Ayob]

^ Here is a good demonstration. The belief that the west have some sort of obligation to help other people. The American government simply exploits this belief in order to conquer other countries and behave like a tyrant. Most countries would do this if they were in a position of great power.

Salaam
I guess they want to make up for all the history of slavery and Darkness By ofcourse Bombing more of our countries..
Lets not forget of course Mother Dearest ...Hiroshima Atomic Bombing!

Yeah riight Give me a break
Salaam

 

[Who Am I?]

Salaam
I guess they want to make up for all the history of slavery and Darkness By ofcourse Bombing more of our countries..
Lets not forget of course Mother Dearest ...Hiroshima Atomic Bombing!

Yeah riight Give me a break
Salaam

I may have to disagree with you about the atomic bombs dropped on Japan. It is still debated today over whether or not those bombs saved millions of lives on both sides. The Allies were contemplating an amphibious invasion of the main Japanese islands much like the operation in Normandy. Based on the invasions of the other Japanese islands, it was already known that the defending Japanese would fight to the last defender and not surrender when the situation became hopeless. A large-scale invasion of the main islands would have resulted in a bloodbath on both sides, probably in the millions, and would doubtless have included many innocent non-combatants.

Now other historians will argue that Japan was already beaten, but this is something that can and never will be proven. The debate will continue forever as to whether or not nuclear weapons were necessary. Unfortunately, that is the great legacy of WW2: the civilian as a casualty of war.

Yet another history nerd moment by yours truly...

 

[May Ayob]

Do you think we're not bullied too

Salaam Again
Well , there is a great solution i think the American Government will accept:
How about going on strike or making a revolution as happened in the Middle East?
I am sure The Government will step down as "It is not legitimate anymore because the people are against it !"
I doubt that as the American Governmen has a double-standard view of everything Especially Politics
again , I am sorry Please Forgive me if I offended you.
Salaam

 

[May Ayob]

I may have to disagree with you about the atomic bombs dropped on Japan. It is still debated today over whether or not those bombs saved millions of lives on both sides. The Allies were contemplating an amphibious invasion of the main Japanese islands much like the operation in Normandy. Based on the invasions of the other Japanese islands, it was already known that the defending Japanese would fight to the last defender and not surrender when the situation became hopeless. A large-scale invasion of the main islands would have resulted in a bloodbath on both sides, probably in the millions, and would doubtless have included many innocent non-combatants.

Salam
You think? Or is it just a Justification for what they did so America Doesn't look so bad when asked about it?
Brother It completely Destructed live of millions of people .. Many painfully lost their loved ones ...
Think Again ..Not everything in History books are really what happened everyone write history according to their opinions ...It is never impartial

Salaam