what do christians & jews believe in?

[Darth Ultor]

Since when did Sanhedrin , become an Arab name . Whats this ? Another of your Jewish deceptions. ?

I know what you're trying to do. You're trying to get me to say something against Islam. Well, I don't feed the trolls. Go take anger management therapy.

 

[Amigo]

You are really a robot!!!

 

[Amigo]

Sorry I forgot to mention that that one is addressed to Naidamar

Naidamar; you are really a robot , are robots allowed on this site to debate/discuss?

 

[Amigo]

Naidamar
I just realized that you may not understand what I mean by saying 'you are really a robot'. So I will give a short explanation. I was trying to apply your standard of judgment on you. See your avatar? what would thinking according to your logic conclude?

It does not help pretending that you don't understand what I mean. Even if you did not, people don't believe according to your standard. You do violence to yourself trying to fit people into your preconceived of them.

 

[Ramadhan]

You are really a robot!!!

Naidamar I just realized that you may not understand what I mean by saying 'you are really a robot'. So I will give a short explanation. I was trying to apply your standard of judgment on you. See your avatar? what would thinking according to your logic conclude? It does not help pretending that you don't understand what I mean. Even if you did not, people don't believe according to your standard. You do violence to yourself trying to fit people into your preconceived of them.

I am the big robot, now go and build statues and paintings of the big robot and worship those statues, and images, and likenesses.
I am sure you are pleased in worshipping the little robots, the painting robots, the half naked robots
Ok, in fact If you don't worship those statues, I will give you infractions. or you can give me infractions. Whatever pleases you.
You can also create other variety of robots and start worshiping them as well, if it pleases you. We will then have robots tournaments.
or not.





/sarcasm off
sheeeshh... when can we expect christians/catholics in this forum to really start thinking?

 

[May Ayob]

Also, I don't know why it says in the Quran that the Jews said the Priests are partners of God.

Peace be to you.

In the Quran it doesn't say that Priests are partners of God. The concept of shirk in Islam( Polytheism), Is considered:
-Obey, Worship, and Loyalty.
Now when the Qura'n was speaking about Partnership to God , it means that they treated their Rabis as Partners by listening to what the Rabis say even if it is not what God has Ordained.. There's a difference.
The Prophet was asked the same question by a fellow Jew who came to ask him about the verse you concluded your statement from the Prophet's answer was : "Did you not use to obey them when they commanded you to do something even though it is not what God has Prescribed? He( the jew)said : Yes, the Prophet said: Then that is worship and asociating partners with God"
The Concept of Worship and Asociating partners with God in Islam contains a lot of sentiments, Just because you don't bow down to them or physically worship them does not mean it is not Worship this is according to Islam.

At the time of the Holy Temple, you could get executed for uttering such blasphemy

No offense Bro, but saying that God has Partners is considered as Blasemphy and Claiming that God is Poor and we are the rich is not?
Claiming that the Father of Jews(Israel) "defeated" God in a wrestling battle is not? I don't know how that would make sense :/

The reason we don't invite is because we don't say our religion is the only one accepted by God. We don't focus on the salvation of our souls. We focus more on following God's commandments for right now. All of them. But we do accept people who come to us, we just inform them of the heavy responsibility.

So, Atheists, Agnostics, Budhhists, Hindus, Christians and Muslims.. etc will all go to Heaven?
I would like some evidence.. It would be a good thing if you gave me one please.

What propaganda are you basing this racial thing on?

Sorry , I might be prejudiced, But Is it not infamous that Jews are racist by all mean?
I read one passage of some Jewish scriptures sometime ago , and it said that literally people or rather creatures are divided into levels
and then the list went as being the Jews the most noblest race of all mankind, others, animals, then unfortunate people (like me) being the last on the list .. Any explanation? I would apreciate one..

Didn't mean to offend you in any way, and If I did then please accept my apologies..

 

[YM Usrah Umar]

Claiming that the Father of Jews(Israel) "defeated" God in a wrestling battle is not? I don't know how that would make sense :/

could u post the story about this please?

Sorry , I might be prejudiced, But Is it not infamous that Jews are racist by all mean?
I read one passage of some Jewish scriptures sometime ago , and it said that literally people or rather creatures are divided into levels
and then the list went as being the Jews the most noblest race of all mankind, others, animals, then unfortunate people (like me) being the last on the list .. Any explanation? I would apreciate one..

and also the verse to this plz

 

[May Ayob]

could u post the story about this please?

Salaam
Here:
Jacob was left alone. And a man (the Lord God) wrestled with him until eventually the breaking of the day. When the man (the Lord God) noticed that he did not prevail in opposition to Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob’s hip was place out of joint as he wrestled with him.
Then he (the Lord God) explained, “Let me go, for the day has damaged.”
But Jacob said, “I will not permit you go unless of course you bless me.”
And he (the Lord God) explained to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.”
Then he (the Lord God) said, “Your identify shall no lengthier be named Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.”
Then Jacob asked him, “Please tell me your identify.” But he (the Lord God) explained, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And there he blessed him.
So Jacob known as the name of the location Peniel, stating,
“For I have noticed God deal with to face, and but my lifestyle has been delivered.”


This is what I would consider as Blasemphy as well.

and also the verse to this plz

Sorry, I read it a long time ago , When I was in High school , I can't find the verse nor am I sure of it's Accuracy, That's why I am asking Boaz Hoping that he will give me an answer...

Salaam

 

[YM Usrah Umar]

Salaam
Here:
Jacob was left alone. And a man (the Lord God) wrestled with him until eventually the breaking of the day. When the man (the Lord God) noticed that he did not prevail in opposition to Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob’s hip was place out of joint as he wrestled with him.
Then he (the Lord God) explained, “Let me go, for the day has damaged.”
But Jacob said, “I will not permit you go unless of course you bless me.”
And he (the Lord God) explained to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.”
Then he (the Lord God) said, “Your identify shall no lengthier be named Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.”
Then Jacob asked him, “Please tell me your identify.” But he (the Lord God) explained, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And there he blessed him.
So Jacob known as the name of the location Peniel, stating,
“For I have noticed God deal with to face, and but my lifestyle has been delivered.”


This is what I would consider as Blasemphy as well.

wasalam, no offence to the jews but come on now...how degrading of our lord ALLAH!!

1) god became a man just for jacob
2) then god lost to him!!!? a human that he created and he lost to him!!!? come on now...
3) i dont understand why would god say “Why is it that you ask my name?”

is it me or are there lik grammer (whatever it is) errors etc?

 

[May Ayob]

wasalam, no offence to the jews but come on now...how degrading of our lord ALLAH!! 1) god became a man just for jacob 2) then god lost to him!!!? a human that he created and he lost to him!!!? come on now... 3) i dont understand why would god say “Why is it that you ask my name?” is it me or are there lik grammer (whatever it is) errors etc?

Salaam
This is why I am hoping Boaz answers the questions, maybe he will give a better understanding :/
Salaam

 

[Darth Ultor]

Uh...wasn't that an angel, not God?

 

[May Ayob]

Uh...wasn't that an angel, not God?

Why are you asking me? I am a Muslim not a Jew, But the Passage is clear it says (The Lord God)
It doesn't say he was an angel
Any explanations to the below?

Peace be to you

 

[Ramadhan]

Sorry, I read it a long time ago , When I was in High school , I can't find the verse nor am I sure of it's Accuracy, That's why I am asking Boaz Hoping that he will give me an answer...

Here:
That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two maidservants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok.
After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions.
So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak.
When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man.
Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak." But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me."
The man asked him, "What is your name?" "Jacob," he answered.
Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."
Jacob said, "Please tell me your name." But he replied, "Why do you ask my name?" Then he blessed him there.
So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."
The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel, and he was limping because of his hip.
Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob's hip was touched near the tendon.
(Genesis 32:24-32)

So it is as clear as the day that in this passage, Jacob fought God and won. However, a christian might say that it is all metaphor and that Jacob struggled with his own self blah blah blah.
However, there are also christians who believe that Jacob fought Jesus (pbuh).
yeah, don't ask me.

If any of you have noticed, christians would use "metaphors" "allegory" or "parables" to refer to passages in bible arbitrarily and whenever it suit them.
Example: "son of god" is only a metaphor when applied to David (pbuh) , but it suddenly becomes literal when applied to Jesus (pbuh).

 

[YM Usrah Umar]

Uh...wasn't that an angel, not God?

If any of you have noticed, christians would use "metaphors" "allegory" or "parables" to refer to passages in bible arbitrarily and whenever it suit them.
Example: "son of god" is only a metaphor when applied to David (pbuh) , but it suddenly becomes literal when applied to Jesus (pbuh).

again no offence but when a christian or a jew response likes this.....its a shame seriously

 

[Grace Seeker]

I hadn't been in this thread before, when I first saw it there were already pages of posts, and I figured one more comment really wasn't needed. But I was curious if what was being presented with regard to Christianity was my understanding of the Christian faith or perhaps some sort of strawman. Well, even expecting to find a few points that I would disagree with I was still surprised to find something as egregiously wrong and even offensive as the following being the third post of the thread:

Dajjal is the Messiah of the Jews.

The Jews and the Christians are all waiting on a Prophet from Arabia to come and guide them, i.e. Prophet Muhamad Sallahu Alayhi Wasalam, but they reject him as prophet, so they still sit in wait for him.

I thought Jews believe that Musa Alayhi Salam was the son of God or something.. I read that in a very knowledgeable book, Stories of the Prophets.

Allah Alim.. Salaam

Without going into details, let me simply state: NONE OF THE ABOVE IS TRUE.



Gratefully, others did soon respond more thoughtfully:

some of what is being said here seems to be based on inadequate knowledge....I hope that we Muslims will have the decency to at least seek accurate knowledge of the others beliefs...ignorance and or prejudice is wrong.......

One error we make in speaking about christian beliefs is that much of what we speak of is Catholicism. the Catholic beliefs differ considerably from most of the other denominations.

Most of the Christian denominations of today came about after the 15th Century and most of the Bible only denominations (about 30,000 to date) came about after the 1850s.

We are somewhat out of date in understanding Christianity as to what it has become today.

If someone really wants to know what Christians believe, I can provide it from my own particular denomination's persepctive, but would probably want to start a new thread for that purpose. Would that be helpful? Would that even be acceptable given the forum guidelines?

 

[Grace Seeker]

I want to ask one question, I see great atheistic influence and tendency in western countries ( I know It is very explicit ), How Christianity can deal with that problem. I mean When We think as a Christian, Is there any hope or perspective ?

It doesn't really have anything to do with the topic of what Christians and Jews believe. Atheism seems to have gained a significiant foothold in the Deism of the Enlightment. Because the dominant culture was Christian many understood any belief in God to be equated with Christianity, but this wasn't really true. Ideas that were purely secular in nature began to put forth. Not all these ideas are anti-Christian, but many of them were certainly not Christian in origin. For instance, democracy is well-founded in western culture, but not of Christian origin, rather it goes back to Greek philosophy. In time, more and more people have been swayed by these post-Enlightenment and secular ways of thinking and that is the influence you see.


How does Christianity deal with this?
In some cases it merely accepts it as not being anti-Christian and so does not need to be opposed. But in other cases it is a problem and in churches there are splits that have occurred because some have followed the culture while others have argued that to do so is to abandoned Christ. The list of those things includes everything from the innocuous (at least so it appears to me) to truly egregious (again at least so it appears to me): whether to where a suit or jeans to worship, which English translation of the Bible to read from, old standard hymns or modern contemporary worship music, views on women in leadership, openness to gay lifestyle, different views with regard to abortion. And that's just to touch a few highlights.

And the truth is we don't deal with it well. Often the church is reactive rather than proactive. Sometimes it has reacted well. The idea of public education for the masses has its origins in the Sunday school which began in the 18th century as an attempt of the church to educated the children who were working in the coalmines of England. The children had Sunday off and went to the parish church to be taught their ABCs. Often it has reacted poorly defending something as terrible as slavery in the US because quite frankly the church members were themselves often slaveholders and had an economic incentive to continue the system.

Today the same process still goes on. Those who feel the Spirit moving them to speak to an issue lift up their prophetic voice as directed by God and try to encourage public debate, or at least debate within the church. Then it becomes something discussed by society as a whole. Eventually, society reaches some level of accomodation to the idea. This may or may not be acceptable to the church. (For instance, Santa Claus has become something commonly accepted in US culture, but often vilified in some churches.) And then the debate is either settled or enjoined again.

The most recent big example I can think of is a decision by the Evaneglical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) to allow for the ordination of homosexual pastors in the denomination but knowing that it was not universally agreed upon throughout the denomination allow individual congregations to decide for themselves whether they would endorse that decision in their own pulpits. Even that allowance did not go over well in many local churches and so there has been a split and a number of those congregations have separated from the ELCA to form a brand new denomination because of disagreement over this issue. So, you see, the process if often bloody as some Christians find acceptable what others see as unacceptable because of disagreements as to how they understand God to thinking with regard to a certain matter.

 

[Grace Seeker]

earlier in this thread, i mentioned a story (i tink its from judiasm) that god and a prophet fought with each other and the prophet beat god...is this true? if yes could you plz explain plz, post the verse/story plz?

</p>

The Story is about Prophet Job(pbuh) who struggled with Satan (according to Judaism) the point of the story being---why do good people suffer, and the answer according to Rabbi Maimonides---is that God's ways are always just even if we do not understand them.

</p>
Siam, I agree with your interpretation of Job, but I think that the story YM Usrah Umar is searching for is that of Jacob.

Genesis 22

22 That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two female servants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. 23 After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. 24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.”

But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”

27 The man asked him, “What is your name?”

“Jacob,” he answered.

28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel*, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”

29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”

But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.

30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”

31 The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel, and he was limping because of his hip. 32 Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob’s hip was touched near the tendon.



(*Genesis 32:28 'Israel' probably means 'he struggles with God'.)

Interpretation of this passage (both sound and unsound) is found extensively on the internet. If interested, I just encourage you to look for sermons with Jacob as the subject matter, for this is a watershed event in Jacob's life. His behavior before left much to be desired, but he becomes a different sort of person afterward, much more in keeping with what one would hope to find in a man of God.

 

[Grace Seeker]

From what little understanding I have of this subject---most Evangelicals are "Dispensationalists" ---which means they believe "end times" scenario will occur in a certain sequence. These events are called rapture, tribulations and milleniallism---(and there is also Armageddon somewhere in there)----and different groups have different sequences for these events......(?)

The Christian Zionism that you spoke about in the same past from which this quote was taken is a reality. But it is about the term "Evangelical" I wished to post.

Evangelical Christianity is a huge camp encompassing lots of different sorts of Christians and sometimes even having different meanings depending on who is using and defining the term. Indeed, probably every Christian has identified himself as "evangelical" at some point in time, for it is taken from the Greek word "euangelion" which is typically translated into the word "Gospel" and literally means "good news."

So, you have to be careful not to make broad sweeping statements like, "Evangelicals believe ______________." Of any sort of statement like that made with regard to evangelicals: some probably do; many probably don't. For instance, I just recently got into a rather heated discussion over this term in another forum debating the question "Is the Evangelical church on the verge of a major heart attack?" One big problem in discussing the thread was that each poster had a different idea what was meant by the term "evangelical" -- some thought it applied to any Christian who proclaimed the Gospel, others want to use it for a particular subset of politically motivated and conservative-minded group of Christians and there were still other ideas, yet not one of us equated it with dispensationalism (though this also fits some evangelicals as well). So, you see just how dangerous it is to use that term, and yet the news media throws it around all the time.

But precisely because it is used so frequently by the media I don't think we can just throw up our hands at trying to understand the term altogether. Thus, I've taken to turning to a group known as the National Association of Evangelicals and find their self-identification as instructive to what is generally (but not always) meant by the term. Based upon there work, here is how I generally answer the question "What is an Evangelical?":


What is an Evangelical?

Evangelicals take the Bible seriously and believe in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.

The term “evangelical” comes from the Greek word euangelion, meaning “the good news” or the “gospel.” Thus, the evangelical faith focuses on the “good news” of salvation brought to sinners by Jesus Christ.

Evangelicals are a vibrant and diverse group, including believers found in many churches, denominations and nations. The evangelical community brings together Reformed, Holiness (including Methodist), Anabaptist, Pentecostal, Charismatic, and other traditions. Core theological convictions held in common within the evangelical community provide unity in the midst of great political, social, and cultural diversity.

Four primary characteristics of evangelicalism include:
1. Conversionism: the belief that lives need to be transformed through a “born-again” experience and a life long process of following Jesus.
2. Biblicism: a high regard for and obedience to the Bible as the primary authority
(This does not mean that one is necessarily a biblical literalist. Some evangelicals are, some are not. Also, some are biblicists to the point of emphasizing Scripture over both Jesus and the Holy Spirit, but most are not.)
3. Crucicentrism: a stress on the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross as making possible the redemption of humanity
4. Activism: the expression and demonstration of the gospel in missionary and social reform efforts
(This is important, minus activism that puts feet to the gospel, a person is not an evangelical in the fullest sense.)



It is these distinctives and theological convictions which define evangelicalism NOT political party, social agendas, cultural trends such as identifying someone as leftist or right-wing, nor even religous labels. In fact, many evangelicals rarely use the term “evangelical” to describe themselves, focusing simply on the core convictions of the triune God, the Bible, faith, Jesus, salvation, evangelism, and discipleship. Those who do these things, be they of whatever denomination, are Gospel people and therefore evangelical.

With regard to activism there are many types, most well known are probably those from the conservative right, such as the late Jerry Falwell's "Moral Majority" that advocate particular political agendas. Today James Dobson might also fit this mode. But for every James Dobson there is also a Tony Campollo who is also indeed a true evangelical, but his activism has a social agenda to it of improving the lot in life of the disadvantaged and the downtrodden. Presidents Carter, Reagan, Clinton and both Bushes were all evangelicals. As I said, it's a big camp.

 

[Grace Seeker]

yes of course bro there is but ther has to be religous background behind the fact that jews are so wealthy, yh u can say that they put alot of emphasis of education, theyv seem to be a community where they help each other out since what happened with hitler etc etc, many more that i may not know about but i think its stems way back....way back. in the quran allah said stay away from the pgi fat and the jews ignored this, and sold the pig fat

Actually, it isn't religious background as much as it is an accident of culture and history.



Up until the time of Alexander the Great Jews were largely confined to their strip of land known as Palestine. It would expand and shrink with the success of the kingdom and on occassion Jews were taken into exile to return later. But with the march of Alexander's armies Jews became dispersed throughout the Greek world. Religion enters in because the Jews were very dedicated to the preservation of Torah. Now understood properly, to keep Torah is not to preserve the written scrolls, but to practice the lifestyle described in them. It is to be a righteous person. But to know what that was one needed to be educated in Torah and the required being able to read. Thus Jews became one of the most literate cultures of the day, where even common folk could read, at least a little.

With the dispersion throughout the Greek world, the desire came that the scriptures needed to be translated to the common language. The Hebrew would be retained as primary in and around Israel, but Greek was used more and more frequently in synagogues elsewhere as most people were able to speak the native tongue of their community and Greek as the universal common language of the day. This was true even after the empire switched from Greek to Roman control -- more people in first century BCE and CE Rome actually spoke Greek than Latin. And Jews melted into these societies other than keeping their community intact through meeting in their synagogues which where in the language of the people.

Then in 70 CE Rome sacked Jerusalem, and the Greek diaspora became a national tragedy on an even larger scale. Jews were scattered not just across the empire, but throughout Europe.Most Jews, because they found themselves outsiders in a foreign and hostile lands, settled together for mutual support and protection. This time however, they decided that the only way to preserve Torah was to keep it in Hebrew. And so Jews became a group unto themselves, not mixing as they had before.

As Europe went through a period of time known as the dark ages, Jews were among the few groups of people that kept their traditions of reading and writing in practice. So, when Europe finally emerged from the medevial period, when cities as political entities began to emerge and kings and princes were looking for people who could assist them in governing their lands, they turned to the educated. These were either the clergy or the Jews.As many princes were asserting their political independence from the Holy Roman Empire, they were not interested in employing Catholic clergy, so they turned to the Jews to handle their affairs of state. As people began to seek to engage in international commerce, the Jews were again in position to facilitate that because they had retained their language for use in the synagogue. So, Spaniard and German merchants might not be able to talk to one another, but Spaniard and German Jews could.Over and over in so many walks of life being educated and having a common language placed Jews in postions of power and influence politically and in commerce. And accruing to that sort of advantage comes wealth. As a result were a source of capital when European countries began to look for ways to fund expeditions. The story goes that Queen Isabella pawned her jewels to fund Columbus' voyage to the New World. But who was the pawn broker? I don't know, but it had to be with someone who had wealth independent of the crown. Jews, or at least those who had done well for themselves in the preceeding centuries, would have again fit the bill.

Now, it is completely ridiculous to suggest that this is true of Jews as whole. Most were like everyone else, struggling to make ends meet, even destitute. But those few who had been in the right place at the right time in history were privileged to have access to power, position, influence and resources that in time would make them and their succeeding generations who continued to take advantage of this head start over the rest of the world exceedingly rich. And it is from these few isolated families that the myth of Jews being is born.

As evidence that it is a myth that Jews are rich, take a look at Jews that come from places other than Europe. The Jews of Africa are just as poor as their neighbors. Wealth is more a product of culture. In those cultures, such as Europe, that have grown quicker than others, being educated enabled the Jews to ride the crest of that expanding wealth that would slowly trickle down to most all. But in other places, Jews are no better off than anyone else.

 

[Grace Seeker]

The only real idols these days are the dollar, the euro, the pound, etc.

And football/futbol.