living god dies

[CosmicPathos]

I think we should at least, from a humanist point of view, say that it is saddening to hear that Sai Baba has died. He did not claim himself to be a god in the way Firawun did (Firauwn rejected existence of Allah, I think Sai Baba believed that Bhagwan existed in heavens). It is common in Hinduism to believe that pious humans are incarnations of God. Sai baba clearly told his followers that there in is god within them too, not just sai baba. This is not a new thing among South Asian religions. Krishna was god incarnate. Vishnu was god incarnate. Very different words from what firawn would have said. I am not too sure about the immoral actions of Sai baba like molesting kids so I will remain silent on that.

I for one will not support Indian Rationalist Association in critique of Sai Baba. Why? These rationalists will equally make fun of my Nabi Muhammad's miracles of splitting the moon and say that he had epilepsy to believe he was the chosen Prophet. I cannot support my enemy (indian rationlists) for defeating the common enemy: Sai baba's ideology.

may Allah forgive me for saying anything that He doesnt like. I maintain my stance against Indian rationalists, who are basically bunch of atheists.

 

[K.Venugopal]

The protagonist of this thread, Satya Sai Baba, claimed he was God and many (they say in millions) accepted him as God. The more relevant point is not what he claimed, but that supposedly millions accepted his claim. Any mad person can say he is God but would anyone accept such a person? Therefore it can only be that either those millions were all mad or there was something to Sai Baba's claim that they agreed with. It cannot be said that all his followers were mad because it included some of the most educated and well-known people and a vast number of ordinary folks. So the question is, what in Sai Baba's claim to be God found acceptance in people? The answer is simple - Hindus who believe in God also believe that God comes down to earth periodically taking a human form (or any other form He may decide) to uphold divine values (called Dharma or harmony in Hinduism). His followers would have judged his claims to divinity on the basis of his activities and would have convinced themselves that he is indeed God. His achievements are remarkable by any standards. He built free educational institutions, hospitals, water dams and innumerable small institutions of social services. Above all, he strove diligently to unite all religions (he even built a fine mosque for the Muslims) and set people on the spiritual path. I can hear many say that these things have been done by many people, so what is so great? The difference is that all the institutions he started are rare models for others to emulate and many institutions around the world not otherwise connected with him have recorded his influence in moulding similar institutions under them. His death is but natural because he inhabited a human body and would have chosen to leave it when he completed his mission.

It is now for history to judge how influential he has been in effecting his avowed mission to uphold harmony in this world.

 

[K.Venugopal]

http://sathyasaibaba.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/sathya-sai-baba-ramzan.jpg?w=281&h=248

Bhagawan’s Divine Discourse On Eid-Ul-Fitr 1978 In The Mosque At Puttaparthi
Ramazan is the month when the Holy Qur’an was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad. It was a divine Communication, a Bhagavad Vani, reaching him through waves or Tarangas of Divine Vibrations. The Vedas too were revealed in the same manner by God to the Rishis. The Bible, the Avesta, and the other great scriptures of other religions also had similar Divine Inspiration as the reason for their validity. Since the Qur’an originated from God, it cannot be changed or modified, to suit ‘changed’ conditions. They are all eternal verities. The Qur’an contains expositions of the five vital principles or pancha prana of human life: mercy, truth, sacrifice, love and tolerance. These principles, really basic to the good life are emphasised in all religious texts of humanity. If one assimilates the truths declared in the Qur’an, they can live in full concord with all others. No religion praises violence or falsehood.
Fasting was laid down during the Ramazan, in order to make people experience the benefits of sense control and in order to cleanse the spirit and the passions of man, so that he may be rendered fit to approach God. Fasting is also referred to as Upavas; Upa means ‘near’ and vas means `living’. So, Upavas means, living very near God. The Ramazan fast is intended to enable Muslims to set aside all sensory desires and to spend an entire month in the Holy Presence of God. As man gets the cool heartening breeze when he approaches the air conditioner, or fan, so too when man approaches God, his sorrows will vanish and he will have his good aspects flourish by His Grace. Cultivate during this Month of God all the Godly qualities, charity, unity, love, service, detachment, tolerance. And, see that you practise them, not only at home, but, spread the joy outside your household also.
Fasting entails not merely abstaining from food and drink from sun rise to sun set, but, the mastery of the more difficult discipline of giving up violence, falsehood, anger, envy, and the maligning of others. One may have to face ridicule and persecution, obstructions and troubles when he decides to lead the good, holy life. Prophet Muhammad was persecuted thus and he had to leave Mecca for Medina. Jesus was crucified for the meek and the mute. As the Lord’s Will assumes the form of a tree—the Kalpavriksha—in order to be a perennial source of sustenance and sweetness to others, great persons have suffered voluntarily, for the sake of their beneficent beliefs. In spite of hurdles and handicaps, Prophet Muhammad did not give up his conviction; He declared that there was only One God and that His Name was Allah. He commanded his disciples to serve mankind, and treat all others as fellow beings, children of the same God. Study the Gift of God to man, namely the Quran and holds its teachings as valid for all time, because they are universal and basic.
The Event
Puttaparthi village in Anantapur district, Andhra Pradesh, India, has become a holy place for millions all over the World, since Bhagawan Sri Sathya Sai Baba was born there and since Prasanthi Nilayam (the Abode of Peace), the hub of the world wide Sai Revolution (through the revival and promotion of Truth, Righteousness, Peace and Love) is also situated there. Bhagawan found that the Muslims of Puttaparthi had to trek about four miles to Bukkapatnam every time they had to pray in a mosque, since they did not have a place of worship in their own village and hence built a mosque for in the village, truly an architectural gem, charming, simple and spacious.
The mosque was completed and consecrated in time for the Ramazan festival in August 1978. Sathya Sai Baba paid a visit to the Mosque, on the Id Festival day. A large assemblage of Indian and Foreign devotees and also villagers of all faiths were present to share in the joy that Bhagawan Sri Satya Sai Baba gave to the Muslims that day, when He visited the Mosque. Sri. G. Fakhruddin the Convenor of the village Mosque committee while paying the homage of welcome said that the Light and Love that shone in and through the founders of all religions were physically present in Sathya Sai Baba today. He expressed eternal gratitude to Bhagawan Baba for showing the Muslims the Pathway to God and for re-enforcing their belief in the universal aspects of all religions. Sathya Sai Baba then granted His discourse in Telugu which was understood by all the Muslims present there. (From Sanathana Sarathi, Aug, 1978)

 

[Dagless]

The protagonist of this thread, Satya Sai Baba, claimed he was God and many (they say in millions) accepted him as God. The more relevant point is not what he claimed, but that supposedly millions accepted his claim. Any mad person can say he is God but would anyone accept such a person? Therefore it can only be that either those millions were all mad or there was something to Sai Baba's claim that they agreed with. It cannot be said that all his followers were mad because it included some of the most educated and well-known people and a vast number of ordinary folks.

Nobody said they were mad; only that they did not have the same information. If they had seen the tricks from a different angle then they too would have questioned what they saw.

So the question is, what in Sai Baba's claim to be God found acceptance in people? The answer is simple - Hindus who believe in God also believe that God comes down to earth periodically taking a human form (or any other form He may decide) to uphold divine values (called Dharma or harmony in Hinduism).

Do they also believe it's ok for him to use simple conjuring tricks to affirm his divinity?

His followers would have judged his claims to divinity on the basis of his activities and would have convinced themselves that he is indeed God. His achievements are remarkable by any standards. He built free educational institutions, hospitals, water dams and innumerable small institutions of social services.

It is good when people do good things, nobody is questioning that. However, how would we see people like Nelson Mandela if he decided to call himself God? What if he started using ash pellets to trick people? and people found piles of money in his house after he died? I'm sure he would have lots of followers but it would only blemish his reputation with most.

Above all, he strove diligently to unite all religions (he even built a fine mosque for the Muslims) and set people on the spiritual path. I can hear many say that these things have been done by many people, so what is so great? The difference is that all the institutions he started are rare models for others to emulate and many institutions around the world not otherwise connected with him have recorded his influence in moulding similar institutions under them. His death is but natural because he inhabited a human body and would have chosen to leave it when he completed his mission.

3 ongoing wars, famine, a handful of humanitarian crisis, disease, corrupt dictators, and the world economy on shaky ground....

 

[Predator]

and people found piles of money in his house after he died? I'm sure he would have lots of followers but it would only blemish his reputation with most.

True .Tons of cash has tumbled out . What was he doing with that money ? He is a deceiver and not very different from the corrupt politician who have hidden miilions of black money in swiss banks which could have otherwise eliminated poverty from the country

http://articles.economictimes.india..._yajur-mandir-gold-and-silver-sathya-sai-baba

 

[K.Venugopal]

Nobody said they were mad; only that they did not have the same information. If they had seen the tricks from a different angle then they too would have questioned what they saw.

Do they also believe it's ok for him to use simple conjuring tricks to affirm his divinity?

It is good when people do good things, nobody is questioning that. However, how would we see people like Nelson Mandela if he decided to call himself God? What if he started using ash pellets to trick people? and people found piles of money in his house after he died? I'm sure he would have lots of followers but it would only blemish his reputation with most.

3 ongoing wars, famine, a handful of humanitarian crisis, disease, corrupt dictators, and the world economy on shaky ground....

Your comments are reasonable. However, if the thrust of your argument is that Sai Baba could have solved all man's problems if he was God is a moot question because no other God believed by others have solved all man's problems either. So it could be said that God accomplishes whatever mission he sets out to. About using conjuring tricks, it is not as if conjuring tricks are necessarily performed to cheat people. Many perform it as a genuine show of mastery of the art. In Sai Baba's case he has used it only to draw people to his deeper teachings. The point is not what if Nelson Mandela called himself God. He did not do it. In fact, nobody in recorded history has called himself God and found such acceptance among the masses as Satya Sai Baba. This is indeed the greatest miracle he performed. And about piles of money found at his residence, they are loose change compared to the money he has got in donation and he spent to build and run his multifarious service projects. His organisation has duly paid taxes on them.

 

[Dagless]

About using conjuring tricks, it is not as if conjuring tricks are necessarily performed to cheat people. Many perform it as a genuine show of mastery of the art. In Sai Baba's case he has used it only to draw people to his deeper teachings.

If he had said it was a trick then maybe your point would be valid. The way it stands it is misleading people. If a conman did the same thing how would you distinguish? Would it be ok if the conman told everyone to just get along?

The point is not what if Nelson Mandela called himself God. He did not do it.

It was an example

In fact, nobody in recorded history has called himself God and found such acceptance among the masses as Satya Sai Baba.This is indeed the greatest miracle he performed.

Plenty of people have called themselves God and had acceptance. Kings, Emperors, Pharaohs... in fact don't Rastafarians still call Haile Salassie god even though he died in the 70s?

 

[Ramadhan]

Plenty of people have called themselves God and had acceptance. Kings, Emperors, Pharaohs...

Yep... emperors of china and japan claimed to be God descending from the sky and had followers and acceptance of many more than sai baba ever did.

 

[K.Venugopal]

If he had said it was a trick then maybe your point would be valid. The way it stands it is misleading people. If a conman did the same thing how would you distinguish? Would it be ok if the conman told everyone to just get along?

It has been said by all scriptures that the judgement upon any action would be based on the motive of the actor. Whether Sai Baba’s actions were for deceiving people or to bring them to spirituality is a judgement that would be judged differently by different people. Who knows what the judgement by God would be?

Plenty of people have called themselves God and had acceptance. Kings, Emperors, Pharaohs... in fact don't Rastafarians still call Haile Salassie god even though he died in the 70s?

Indeed many have proclaimed themselves as God. But with followers it is often the case of “My God the Greatest!” Nevertheless, an objective assessment would make it plain that in the case of Sai Baba, the number of people who believe he is God is phenomenal.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Yep... emperors of china and japan claimed to be God descending from the sky and had followers and acceptance of many more than sai baba ever did.

Is it not a miracle that without State power, one born of poor parents in an unknown place should go on to proclaim his divinity and find acceptance by a large number of people, even amongst people who are not traditionally Hindus?

 

[Ramadhan]

Is it not a miracle that without State power, one born of poor parents in an unknown place should go on to proclaim his divinity and find acceptance by a large number of people, even amongst people who are not traditionally Hindus?

It's not miracle.
He was a fraud, and there has been many in history of frauds who duped so many people, in the end people found out though, just like sai baba.
In indonesia even, there is this woman who claimed she met god, and then later she claimed she god incarnate, and she has many followers too.

 

[K.Venugopal]

It's not miracle.
He was a fraud, and there has been many in history of frauds who duped so many people, in the end people found out though, just like sai baba.
In indonesia even, there is this woman who claimed she met god, and then later she claimed she god incarnate, and she has many followers too.

You say Sai Baba is a fraud. I say he was not. Now what?

 

[Predator]

Indeed many have proclaimed themselves as God. But with followers it is often the case of “My God the Greatest!” Nevertheless, an objective assessment would make it plain that in the case of Sai Baba, the number of people who believe he is God is phenomenal.

And the number of people who believe he isnt god but a deceiver is much more phenomenal

 

[K.Venugopal]

And the number of people who believe he isnt god but a deceiver is much more phenomenal

It may be so today. But what if the position changes tomorrow?

 

[Dagless]

It has been said by all scriptures that the judgement upon any action would be based on the motive of the actor. Whether Sai Baba’s actions were for deceiving people or to bring them to spirituality is a judgement that would be judged differently by different people. Who knows what the judgement by God would be?

The point is he used the tricks to persuade people he was god. Other than the tricks there is no evidence to prove he was god. As has been mentioned before in this thread there have been people in history who have done more good and those who had more followers, so these things cannot prove he was god.

Indeed many have proclaimed themselves as God. But with followers it is often the case of “My God the Greatest!” Nevertheless, an objective assessment would make it plain that in the case of Sai Baba, the number of people who believe he is God is phenomenal.

As were the number of people who believed the Pharaohs were gods. This is not proof of divinity. A majority of people believed the world was flat at one point in time too, but after new information was presented they realised they were wrong. Now Sai Baba's tricks have been shown they cannot be used to prove he was divine. What proof do you have other than his word?

 

[K.Venugopal]

The point is he used the tricks to persuade people he was god. Other than the tricks there is no evidence to prove he was god. As has been mentioned before in this thread there have been people in history who have done more good and those who had more followers, so these things cannot prove he was god. As were the number of people who believed the Pharaohs were gods. This is not proof of divinity. A majority of people believed the world was flat at one point in time too, but after new information was presented they realised they were wrong. Now Sai Baba's tricks have been shown they cannot be used to prove he was divine. What proof do you have other than his word?

At one time, as you said, people believed the world was flat. They no longer do so now. Does it not mean beliefs and opinions can change over time? Then how can we be sure opinions about Sai Baba’s divinity will not change either way in future? Right now, for many people his word is good enough that he is God.

God is that which in common parlance is referred to as “I” when we speak. It is difficult to say what “I” is. It is easier to say what “I” is not. We could start the discovery straight away by understanding that I am not my shirt, my fingers etc., because even if we lose them, I remain. When the body dies, does the “I” remain? When we say someone died we mean so-and-so lost his life. Does it not mean that so-and-so and his life are two separate things? So-and-so, we can see, lying dead ready to be buried. But where has life gone?

 

[Dagless]

At one time, as you said, people believed the world was flat. They no longer do so now. Does it not mean beliefs and opinions can change over time? Then how can we be sure opinions about Sai Baba’s divinity will not change either way in future? Right now, for many people his word is good enough that he is God.

I don't see how they could. I mean exposed tricks cannot be unexposed, and he also died which is itself quite final.

God is that which in common parlance is referred to as “I” when we speak. It is difficult to say what “I” is. It is easier to say what “I” is not. We could start the discovery straight away by understanding that I am not my shirt, my fingers etc., because even if we lose them, I remain. When the body dies, does the “I” remain? When we say someone died we mean so-and-so lost his life. Does it not mean that so-and-so and his life are two separate things? So-and-so, we can see, lying dead ready to be buried. But where has life gone?

How does this relate to evidence that he was god? As I said before plenty of people have said they are god so how can his claim be substantiated? If you want to blindly believe he is god then that's your choice, but the bottom line is there is no evidence of divinity.

 

[K.Venugopal]

I don't see how they could. I mean exposed tricks cannot be unexposed, and he also died which is itself quite final.How does this relate to evidence that he was god? As I said before plenty of people have said they are god so how can his claim be substantiated? If you want to blindly believe he is god then that's your choice, but the bottom line is there is no evidence of divinity.

What is blind belief for one may not be so for another.

 

[siam]

Is it possible that the definitions of "God" are different in Hinduism and Islam?

In Islam, God is Unique, the Uncreated, the One.....
In Hinduism---God may not be either Unique or Uncreated...or even One......?

In some shamanistic beliefs like Shintoism---God(Kami) is "everywhere", in every rock, and stream and tree....

Perhaps in Hinduism, any elephant or cow or man or statue can be an "incarnate"/avatar---a "created" God?

 

[siam]

So.... what would be the criteria for such a created man-god?.....that he did (a)good-works and he did (b)"miracles"?...is that it?