Refuting the Islamophobe's claim that Prophet Muhammad was a Pedophile.

[Rhubarb Tart]

From what I was told, it is permissible according to some scholars, the marriage contract can be drawn up when the girl is young, then when she reaches puberty she goes and lives with the man, however if she doesn't like him then she leaves the marriage at puberty.

I was told there is wisdoms behind this, for example if a father is dying and he is worried about who will look after his young daughter when he dies, he can do marriage contract with trustworthy person even if the girl hasn't reached puberty but physical relationship isn't allowed until puberty, and if once she reaches puberty she decides she doesn't want to be in the marriage then she leaves it.

The scholars who say it's allowed base it upon the fact that many of the companions had child brides while they themselves were old.

But there are scholars who also say that the marriage contract can only be drawn up once the girl reaches puberty and her consent must then be sought.

In some parts of the world this still happens, I have a distant relative who was 51 and he married a 20 year old girl from pakistan, here in my town, a few years ago, a 27 year old man married a 14 year old girl. They're both still married, I guess it depends because what one person finds hard to accept another person finds normal.

a 20 years old and 14 years old is completely different to 9 years old! Again how to assess whether a child is ready if there is no age limit?And what about the psychiological toll on the child knowing that their parent matched them with someone already? Do you think these parent who already matched their children are willing to wait for the answer no?

 

[جوري]

a 20 years old and 14 years old is completely different to 9 years old! Again how to assess whether a child is ready if there is no age limit?And what about the psychiological toll on the child knowing that their parent matched them with someone already? Do you think these parent who already matched their children are willing to wait for the answer no?

You seem very upset and I am not sure why? Have you seen anyone here advocate the marriage of a 9 year old? further I am asking you to show me where in Islam that it is made an injunction to marry at age 9 or even 30?
We can't help what is going on in the world and I doubt very much making it the 'law' is going to change matters any. Laws aren't a substitute for an education, if a parent is determined to marry their daughter without her consent (which is against Islam and renders the marriage null and void) they're not going to care if the law says the age of consent is 29 as opposed to 12..

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

Indeed however given the number of sexually active and children out of wedlock born to well 'children' I'd say it seems to be killing them alot to wait?.. and imposing statutory rape charges hasn't curbed on the pre-marital appeal nor on the percentage of teenage pregnancies in the developed world. So what do you propose? Because I think I summed it up perfectly with a root cause analysis and a solution that isn't mere cosmetics.. I am not sure who you mean by 'Answar's' but we're all allowed to have our own opinion. Also I don't know the secrets of attractions. people marry for all kinds of reasons. Some people marry for mere companionship, there was a singer who died in the late eighties and it was discovered on autopsy that he was a woman, his wife never knew because they never had sex. So I can't be made to comment on what attracts people to one another at any age!

best,

Answar maybe I spelt his name wrong. You know the west promotes sex in their society which factor that contributes to teenage pregnancies! Like I said it won’t kill anyone to wait for the appropriate age.
If there are no age limit then how do people assess whether that young person is able to marry and have children of their own?
How would you prevent a paedophile from marrying a child? Are advocating a society that check whether the person started puberty or take the parents word for it?

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

You seem very upset and I am not sure why? Have you seen anyone here advocate the marriage of a 9 year old? further I am asking you to show me where in Islam that it is made an injunction to marry at age 9 or even 30?
We can't help what is going on in the world and I doubt very much making it the 'law' is going to change matters any. Laws aren't a substitute for an education, if a parent is determined to marry their daughter without her consent (which is against Islam and renders the marriage null and void) they're not going to care if the law says the age of consent is 29 as opposed to 12..

In Islam anything that causes harm should be prevented. Knowing first hard the psychological and psychical damage child abuse can have on person makes me the WTH would someone advocate no age limit marriage! Btw you might as well advocate a 9 years old marriage since you are in favour of no age limit.

They are going to care if society looks down upon their action and if they knew they could face jail time.

 

[Salahudeen]

a 20 years old and 14 years old is completely different to 9 years old! Again how to assess whether a child is ready if there is no age limit?And what about the psychiological toll on the child knowing that their parent matched them with someone already? Do you think these parent who already matched their children are willing to wait for the answer no?

puberty? from what I was told, the girl doesn't live with the guy until she reaches puberty, at which point if she decides since reaching puberty, growing up and developing a mind of her own that she doesn't like him she can exit the marriage immediately.

I was told that's the islamic ruling on it. ^ according to some scholars.

But I'm aware what happen's in real life is different, for example the family pressure the girl to stay married with the guy once she grows up even if she doesn't like him and if she wants to leave the marriage they don't talk to her.

So people abuse the ruling and use it for their own benefit which is the big problem with this.

If you think puberty is not a valid indicator of a person's readiness for marriage, then I guess we can never measure a person's readiness for marriage with a general condition such as age, a more appropriate way would be a case by case basis, because even if you put an age limit on it some people would still not be ready for marriage at the age limit and some people will be ready for marriage well before the age limit.

For example I thought I was ready for marriage at 12, prior to that age I had crushes on girls in my class :hmm: I would've loved to get married at that age if I had the financial means sounds crazy I know but suppressing a natural desire till you're 23 with a job just doesn't feel right, the rest of the boys in my glass had gf's instead of wife's so that's how they got by.

But I think everyone's readiness for marriage mentally varies person to person, but in Islam I was told a girl can get married at the age of puberty, that is the age limit in Islam according to some scholars, whenever a girl reaches puberty she's ready to give her own decision on marriage and her consent must be sought.

 

[جوري]

Answar maybe I spelt his name wrong. You know the west promotes sex in their society which factor that contributes to teenage pregnancies! Like I said it won’t kill anyone to wait for the appropriate age.
If there are no age limit then how do people assess whether that young person is able to marry and have children of their own?
How would you prevent a paedophile from marrying a child? Are advocating a society that check whether the person started puberty or take the parents word for it?

for starters pedophiles aren't interested in marriage, I urge you to do some reading on the subject.
secondly the conditions of marriage in Islam are many, and I quote:

Physical maturity by itself, however, is not enough for a person to handle the marriage responsibilities; rushd (maturity of mind) is equally important. On the other hand, our present way of life has become so much complicated that a considerable gap has appeared between puberty and maturity both in financial and social affairs. A recent article on the American youths says, "[Y]oung Americans entering the 21st century are far less mature than their ancestors were at the beginning of the 20th. The difference is evident in all areas of youthful development: sex, love, marriage, education and work. Physically, today's youths are maturing earlier than previous generations, but emotionally they are taking much longer to develop adult attachments." (Newsweek, Special Edition Spring 1990, p. 55) Consequently, it is not easy for boys and girls of our atomic era to marry as soon as they become physically mature.

http://www.*************/m_morals/chap3.htm

so as you can see some of the conditions of marriage per Islam might not even be met by a 30 year old..
I am rather interested in your point of view of marriage of Mentally challenged persons.. Do you think they should be sterilized and forbidden from marriage just because one can't determine their level of readiness with a state law?

 

[جوري]

In Islam anything that causes harm should be prevented. Knowing first hard the psychological and psychical damage child abuse can have on person makes me the WTH would someone advocate no age limit marriage! Btw you might as well advocate a 9 years old marriage since you are in favour of no age limit.

They are going to care if society looks down upon their action and if they knew they could face jail time.

No one would face jail time unless said marriage is reported by the party itself. Even in the civilized west if a 30 year old beds a 15 year old with her consent it wouldn't constitute statutory rape unless she reports it as such or someone reports it, otherwise prisons would be very over crowded.

And I don't appreciate you telling me what I should or shouldn't advocate. I stated implicitly on my first post that a root cause analysis works better than cosmetics which is in fact what you're offering and that in certain parts of the world if you impose an age of consent at your whims you may as well doom many to extinction given their average life expectancy, geopolitical and social structure and availability of health care.

Believe it or not, this is the reality of many in the world

something to ponder while you sip your coffee and shaking your fingers at folks you deem 'pedophiles'

best,

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

puberty? from what I was told, the girl doesn't live with the guy until she reaches puberty, at which point if she decides since reaching puberty, growing up and developing a mind of her own that she doesn't like him she can exit the marriage immediately.

I was told that's the islamic ruling on it. ^ according to some scholars.

But I'm aware what happen's in real life is different, for example the family pressure the girl to stay married with the guy once she grows up even if she doesn't like him and if she wants to leave the marriage they don't talk to her.

So people abuse the ruling and use it for their own benefit which is the big problem with this.

If you think puberty is not a valid indicator of a person's readiness for marriage, then I guess we can never measure a person's readiness for marriage with a general condition such as age, a more appropriate way would be a case by case basis, because even if you put an age limit on it some people would still not be ready for marriage at the age limit and some people will be ready for marriage well before the age limit.

For example I thought I was ready for marriage at 12, prior to that age I had crushes on girls in my class :hmm: I would've loved to get married at that age if I had the financial means sounds crazy I know but suppressing a natural desire till you're 23 with a job just doesn't feel right, the rest of the boys in my glass had gf's instead of wife's so that's how they got by.

But I think everyone's readiness for marriage mentally varies person to person, but in Islam I was told a girl can get married at the age of puberty, that is the age limit in Islam according to some scholars, whenever a girl reaches puberty she's ready to give her own decision on marriage and her consent must be sought.

I did not say wait till you are 23.. The girl can live with the guy before she reaches puberty according to Q and A and he can bring up his wife. btw I am not joking that what Islam Q and A said after that I never went to their site again.

I

 

[Salahudeen]

I did not say wait till you are 23.. The girl can live with the guy before she reaches puberty according to Q and A and he can bring up his wife. btw I am not joking that what Islam Q and A said after that I never went to their site again.

I

Allah hu alam, I was told the evidence for the girl going to live with the guy once she reaches puberty is the fact that Ayesha didn't go and live with the prophet (saw) straight away after the marriage. She was married and lived with her parents for a couple of years then moved in with him. So I don't know then :hmm:

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

No one would face jail time unless said marriage is reported by the party itself. Even in the civilized west if a 30 year old beds a 15 year old with her consent it wouldn't constitute statutory rape unless she reports it as such or someone reports it, otherwise prisons would be very over crowded.

And I don't appreciate you telling me what I should or shouldn't advocate. I stated implicitly on my first post that a root cause analysis works better than cosmetics which is in fact what you're offering and that in certain parts of the world if you impose an age of consent at your whims you may as well doom many to extinction given their average life expectancy, geopolitical and social structure and availability of health care.

Believe it or not, this is the reality of many in the world

something to ponder while you sip your coffee and shaking your fingers at folks you deem 'pedophiles'

best,

I know the reality most of the world, thanks. Yet these young girls that die from childbirth are the every people that come these part of the world.

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

Allah hu alam, I was told the evidence for the girl going to live with the guy once she reaches puberty is the fact that Ayesha didn't go and live with the prophet (saw) straight away after the marriage. She was married and lived with her parents for a couple of years then moved in with him. So I don't know then :hmm:

Yes I am aware of that but Islam Q and A approved of it so there must be disagreement between the scholars.

 

[جوري]

I know the reality most of the world, thanks. Yet these young girls that die from childbirth are the every people that come these part of the world.

again like I stated their problems run far deeper than setting an age limit!

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

for starters pedophiles aren't interested in marriage, I urge you to do some reading on the subject.
secondly the conditions of marriage in Islam are many, and I quote:


http://www.*************/m_morals/chap3.htm

so as you can see some of the conditions of marriage per Islam might not even be met by a 30 year old..
I am rather interested in your point of view of marriage of Mentally challenged persons.. Do you think they should be sterilized and forbidden from marriage just because one can't determine their level of readiness with a state law?

You are having laugh if you think a paedophile would not take advantage of society where marriage has no age limit. So again, what would your prevention be?
No I don’t think they should be sterilised more like assess by professional to determine their level of readiness.

 

[جوري]

You are having laugh if you think a paedophile would not take advantage of society where marriage has no age limit. So again, what would your prevention be?
No I don’t think they should be sterilised more like assess by professional to determine their level of readiness.

Pedophilia is a sickness, sickness is not one that likes to be involved in financial abilities, dowries & contracts!
I haven't seen any studies on pedophiles who like to marry the object of their perversion. You're certainly welcome to change my mind and I am open to change once I see your randomized double blind study with a P value less than > 0.05 in a sizable population where you've done all the work and crunched in all the numbers.

I like the 'assessed in by a professional' portion by the way. Even in the civilized west a 'professional' doesn't have the power to make such a determination of taking away anyone's autonomy unless they were a threat to self or others.. So you have quite the road ahead of you changing the laws of society and medical ethics in one shot because you deem someone not ready or undeserving or a pedophile or whatever else out of pure whimsy!

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

again like I stated their problems run far deeper than setting an age limit!

Their problems is the world problem if you are taking about poverty.

 

[Salahudeen]

You are having laugh if you think a paedophile would not take advantage of society where marriage has no age limit. So again, what would your prevention be?
No I don’t think they should be sterilised more like assess by professional to determine their level of readiness.

Out of curiosity, what's your definition of a paedophile?

 

[جوري]

Their problems is the world problem if you are taking about poverty.

poverty, ignorance, and disability are a cause of a great deal of the world's problems including what you'd like to see changed. The problem is time & time again you refuse to seek treatment to the cause opting instead for a cosmetic solution..

“O Lord I seek refuge in Thee from kufr (unbelief) and poverty,”[7] for according to another hadith, “Poverty, in all probability, leads to unbelief (kufr).”

and kufr leads to all else!

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

Pedophilia is a sickness, sickness is not one that likes to be involved in financial abilities, dowries & contracts!
I haven't seen any studies on pedophiles who like to marry the object of their perversion. You're certainly welcome to change my mind and I am open to change once I see your randomized double blind study with a P value less than > 0.05 in a sizable population where you've done all the work and crunched in all the numbers.

I like the 'assessed in by a professional' portion by the way. Even in the civilized west a 'professional' doesn't have the power to make such a determination of taking away anyone's autonomy unless they were a threat to self or others.. So you have quite the road ahead of you changing the laws of society and medical ethics in one shot because you deem someone not ready or undeserving or a pedophile or whatever else out of pure whimsy!

Pedophilia maybe a sickness but that wont stop them going through any means to feed their sickness. Juts imagine, I will marry a 9 years old and say she started puberty, pay their parents and get to abuse her for few years! Oh wasnt it in the U.S where pedophile kinapped a 11 years old girl (according to you is capable of marriage) and abused her for 23 years or so? no doubt he was in fact a pedophile because he did abuse a child and hanged around the park to seek victim? Pedophile will and have used any means to feed their perversion.

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

Out of curiosity, what's your definition of a paedophile?

Anyone who abuses a child or gets off on child abuse.

 

[Salahudeen]

Anyone who abuses a child or gets off on child abuse.

At what point is a child no longer a child?