Satan’s Great Manipulation of the Christians

[Burninglight]

I believe the gospel of Jesus is the injeel Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. This is what Allah promised to preserve along with the Torah and the Pslams.

 

[Snowflake]

Burninglight: Christians are not supossed to worship the cross; they are suppose to carry their cross and follow Christ.

Firstly, hi and welcome to the forums. Hope your stay here is beneficial God willing and Allah guides you to the Truth. Ameen.

Now to the above statement. I've always found it strange that the cross is seen as a symbol of Jesus's sacrifice for two reasons:

1st reason: Textual evidence (below) from the Bible suggests that Jesus did not die willingly.

Jesus Arrested


22:47-53pp -- Mt 26:47-56; Mk 14:43-50; Jn 18:3-11

47 While he was still speaking a crowd came up, and the man who was called Judas, one of the Twelve, was leading them. He approached Jesus to kiss him, 48 but Jesus asked him, "Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?" <<< It was this betrayal that lead to Jesus's crucifixion. Not his willingness. 49When Jesus' followers saw what was going to happen, they said, "Lord, should we strike with our swords?" 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear. 51 But Jesus answered, "No more of this!" And he touched the man's ear and healed him. 52 Then Jesus said to the chief priests, the officers of the temple guard, and the elders, who had come for him, "Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come with swords and clubs? <<<Jesus tried to defend himself and had no intention of sacrificing himself to save mankind. Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me. 56 But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled." <<< Here, I may as well bring your attention to Jesus's admission that he came to fulfil the previous scriptures. He never came to start a new religion. But to uphold the Message of the previous prophet's that there is no God but Allah.

24 So Pilate decided to grant their demand. 25 He released the man who had been thrown into prison for insurrection and murder, the one they asked for, and surrendered Jesus to their will. <<< Again, despite being dragged from court to court and throughout the trials, Jesus NEVER gave himself up willingly, but was imprisoned on the angry demands of the people. Would a humble Prophet of God (who the Bible claims knew he was going to die) allow such drama to take place if he knew he was going to sacrifice himself anyway? Or would he say, "Stop! It is not you who shall condemn me to death. For it is I who shall give up my life so that thou shalt be saved"?

Jesus's final words: Matthew 27:46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" - which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"<<< Word that suggest a huge betrayal of the willingness to die. (Note: I am ware the NT has changed jesus's last words to "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." Another example of the corruption in the Bible.)

2nd reason: The cross was tool used to kill all sorts of criminals and not exclusively reserved for Jesus. Even if it had been, it should be a thing hated and shunned all the more because of the reminder that Jesus suffered on it. Forgive my example and may that not happen, but if one of your loved one's died defending you as a result of getting shot, would a gun become a symbol of their sacrifice for you? I'm sure you wouldn't nail one to the wall, or wear a miniature replica around your neck, or even bear to look at one again. I've never understood how Christians can look at the cross and selfishly take pride in Jesus's suffering and death, while not contemplating the horror of what he was subjected to.



I hope you can see my point.

Peace.

 

[Azraq]

I believe the gospel of Jesus is the injeel Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. This is what Allah promised to preserve along with the Torah and the Pslams.

The duty of the nations was to preserve their scriptures and to teach them to their people
(Matthew 15:24, "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel),
Allah had placed upon them that responsibility. They never had to spread the message to all humanity.

The Qur'an and the way of Muhammad(pbuh) have been preserved by Allah for this nation, but the reason he has preserved
the scripture for us is because our duty is to convey the message to the whole of mankind.

Be true to yourself.

 

[Burninglight]

Firstly, hi and welcome to the forums. Hope your stay here is beneficial God willing and Allah guides you to the Truth. Ameen.

Now to the above statement. I've always found it strange that the cross is seen as a symbol of Jesus's sacrifice for two reasons:

1st reason: Textual evidence (below) from the Bible suggests that Jesus did not die willingly.

Thank you for you welcome sister of Islam. I don't see the textual evidence that Jesus didn't die willing.

"Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?"

Jesus said, "Offenses are sure to come, but wow unto them from whom they come"

52 Then Jesus said to the chief priests, the officers of the temple guard, and the elders, who had come for him, "Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come with swords and clubs? <<<Jesus tried to defend himself and had no intention of sacrificing himself to save mankind. Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me. 56 But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled." <<< Here, I may as well bring your attention to Jesus's admission that he came to fulfil the previous scriptures. He never came to start a new religion. But to uphold the Message of the previous prophet's that there is no God but Allah.

It wasn't Jesus' will to die; it was God's will and Jesus' will to do the will of God. that is why he said, "Father let this cup pass form me, but not my will yours be done"

Jesus's final words: Matthew 27:46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" - which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"<<< Word that suggest a huge betrayal of the willingness to die. (Note: I am ware the NT has changed jesus's last words to "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." Another example of the corruption in the Bible.)

that is because Jesus became a curse so we could be bless; He died so we could live; he became poor so we could be rich. Don't Jesus told Peter he was to be given into the hands of sinners to die, but Peter said "Never, never willthat happen to you" Jesus rebuked him saying, "Get thee behind me Satanfor thou savourest not the things that be of God..."

 

[Burninglight]

The duty of the nations was to preserve their scriptures and to teach them to their people
(Matthew 15:24, "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel),
Allah had placed upon them that responsibility. They never had to spread the message to all humanity.

The Qur'an and the way of Muhammad(pbuh) have been preserved by Allah for this nation, but the reason he has preserved
the scripture for us is because our duty is to convey the message to the whole of mankind.

Be true to yourself.

You err not knowing the Scriptures or the power thereof. Jesus came unto His own, but they did not receive Him, but has many as have received Him to them gave He the power to become the sons of God even to those that believe on His name. It should have been the lost sheep of the house of Israel that received the message who is Jesus, but they refused to believe, but we have received the Word and have received the blessing and salvation they were not worthy of. I am being as truthful to myself and you as I know.

 

[MustafaMc]

It wasn't Jesus' will to die; it was God's will and Jesus' will to do the will of God. that is why he said, "Father let this cup pass form me, but not my will yours be done"

I am glad that you see Jesus and God are two separate beings with one submitting his will to that of the other - much like I submit my will to Allah when I choose to get up to pray before sunrise rather than stay in bed sleep some more.

 

[Burninglight]

I am glad that you see Jesus and God are two separate beings with one submitting his will to that of the other - much like I submit my will to Allah when I choose to get up to pray before sunrise rather than stay in bed sleep some more.

Yes I do, see them as two persons. I see Jesus as God's word coming to life on earth to be with us. But what can be greater than God's word. It is written in the Bible that God exalts His word above all His name yet Jesus was the lesser of God who He called His Father and ours because He said the "Father is Greater than I." How can that be?

Well, Jesus was a man like you and me, but He he was also God's living word in the flesh and that is what you don't believe and I do. Jesus always existed as the word but not as flesh and blood. Why God chose to make His word and Holimness distinct persons but one God with Himself, I don't understand, no Christian does, BUT who are we to say what God can or can't do. We don't understand how He can always be or how he always was or how He can stand outside of time seeing the past, present and future at the same time, but we accept that which is not logical; yet, some will say, it is not possible for God to make His word become flesh and dwell amongst us. That is strange, very strange!
^o)

 

[MustafaMc]

They say the Most Gracious has begotten a son! Indeed you have put forth a thing most monstrous! At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin, that they should invoke a son for the Most Gracious. For it is not consonant with the majesty of Most Gracious that He should beget a son. Quran 19:88-92
Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2012/01/21/42...ws.html#storylink=scinlineshare#storylink=cpy

 

[Burninglight]

They say the Most Gracious has begotten a son! Indeed you have put forth a thing most monstrous! At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin, that they should invoke a son for the Most Gracious. For it is not consonant with the majesty of Most Gracious that He should beget a son. Quran 19:88-92
Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2012/01/21/420...#storylink=cpy

Well, the word "Begotten" may not be an accurate translation, because I would agree that God didn't seer Jesus, But Jesus does call God His father and the Father God calls Jesus His son "This is my beloved son in whom I am well please; hear ye Him" God said, "beloved son" - He didn't say "this is my begotten son" So, if someone would say God seered Jesus as a begotten son, I would agree they are putting forth a thing most monstrous! Sadly, IMO, Muslims are missing or neglecting what the Bible calls so great a salvation because they are hung up on the translation of John 3:16. The Bible states or asks, "How shall we escape the judgment of God if we neglect so great a salvation?"

 

[Ramadhan]

Please show me how the Bible is as corrupted as you say

All bible scholars agreed that John 7:53-8:11 (also known as pericope adulterae) was a later addition to NT.
That passage was not in any oldest bible manuscripts, not in codex sinaiticus, not in codex alexandrinus, not in codex vaticanus.

THAT is corruption.

And that is only one example. I can give you hundreds others.

Now, please answer my other questions.

Do not evade please.

 

[Ramadhan]

I believe the gospel of Jesus is the injeel Matthew, Mark, Luke and John

Have you actually read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?
Those are accounts by supposedly writers of matthew, john, luke and mark. And in many passages, even the third person account became the second person account.

 

[Ramadhan]

Again, you assume that bible is the word of God.
Have you actually read your bible in whole?



Sure, if you have a copy of the original.
Can you please who us here a copy of the original bible?



They are not stronger than God, but constantine and council of nicea is the foundation of christianity.



Very true, and that's why Qur'an is 100% preserved, unchanged, because it is the word of God, while those other books which claim from God but actually not is not preserved.



Please give me one name of someone that has memorized ORIGINAL bible?


By the way, you did NOT answer most of my questions in the previous post. Just as you challenged me to answer your questions, which I did wholly, I want you to answer ALL of my questions.
and LOGIC please.

Burninglight, please answer all my questions in post #15

Do not run away now

 

[Ramadhan]

Ok. So catholics are christians.
And I have shown you that majority christians worship statues and images.



Because christians believe that only christians will go to paradise and the rest will go to hell.
So if catholics are not christians then they will go to hell, per your definition.



so you agree that God has many sons.



I asked you, I want Jesus' ACTUAL words, not your own words.
Where is it?



You said christians only worship one God, but I have shown you that christians also worship Jesus, statues, images, etc.



Bible has translations errors?
Please show me those errors.
When You say bible has translation errors, then you must show us the translated bible compared to the original bible. That way we can compare of there's translation errors.

Later I will show you many passages in the bible which are 100% fabricated by early priests/scribes.



You assume that bible is God's words.
Where is your proof?



I have shown you the promise of God (swt) in the Qur'an that He preserve the Qur'an, and I have shown you that Qur'an is unchanged. That is my proof.
Now, I can show you thousands of different bibles, each different from the others. So, which one is preserved?




Yes. I am 100% sure.

The proof:
every single muslim from a computer engineer in silicon valley california to an illitetrate farmer in remote area in Indonesia memorise the same Qur'an. There are millions of muslims in the world who FULLY memorised the Qur'an (they are called hafiz) down to the T and dots, including my 16 yo cousin. Even if every single copy of qur'an text is destroyed, the Qur'an will never get destroyed nor changed unless you kill every single of those hafiz as well.
You seem to have no idea whatsoever about preservation of the Qur'an.
read again, and this time stop reading false info from anti Islam sites.



By the time of IUthman (ra), Qur'an had been fully memorized by tens of thousands of people, not only in makkah/madinah, but from from north Africa all the way to persia.
And Uthman (ra) did not recompile the Qur'an.
Read again preservation of Qur'an but this time stop reading false info from anti islam sites.



Are you a new christian?
I am asking because any adult christian would know that constantine and nicea council hunted down and burned down and destroyed hundreds of gospels, and they killed and decimated christians who didn't adhere to latin idea of god coming down to earth.

If you believe OT and NT scriptures were never burned or destroyed, then show us here original copies of OT and NT.

Please answer all my questions in this post #8

 

[MustafaMc]

Well, the word "Begotten" may not be an accurate translation, because I would agree that God didn't seer Jesus, But Jesus does call God His father and the Father God calls Jesus His son "This is my beloved son in whom I am well please; hear ye Him" God said, "beloved son" - He didn't say "this is my begotten son" So, if someone would say God seered Jesus as a begotten son, I would agree they are putting forth a thing most monstrous!

I believe that the use of the terms 'Son' and 'Father' in the gospels are figurative not literal as illustrated by John 20:16-17 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turneth herself, and saith unto him in Hebrew, Rabboni; which is to say, Teacher. Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God. Can you extract yourself from your Christian faith and read those last few words from an unbiased perspective? Jesus put himself on equal footing as his disciples with them having the same relation to God as 'my Father and your Father, and my God and your God."

Sadly, IMO, Muslims are missing or neglecting what the Bible calls so great a salvation because they are hung up on the translation of John 3:16. The Bible states or asks, "How shall we escape the judgment of God if we neglect so great a salvation?"

Sadly, IMO, Christians are placing their trust for salvation in the very thing that puts them in danger of the Hellfire. I know from personal experience that unless God opens your eyes, you will not be able to see the truth that there is only One God and that Muhammad was His messenger and servant.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all, on both sides of the great divide.

We strive to change other people’s beliefs, but we should strive to change ourselves first.

If any of us achieve salvation, it will not be through our own efforts, rather it will be through the grace, mercy and forgiveness of our God.

If God could grant me salvation, then I pray that people of all beliefs and no beliefs can achieve salvation. I say this because I have family and friends of many diverse beliefs, and I would not like to see any of them suffer hell.

In the spirit of praying to One God

Eric

 

[MustafaMc]

Greetings and peace be with you all, on both sides of the great divide.

Peace unto you, Eric. Matthew 5:7-9 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called sons of God.

We strive to change other people’s beliefs, but we should strive to change ourselves first.

Matthew 7:2-4 For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured unto you. And why do you behold the mote that is in your brother's eye, but why do you not consider the beam that is in your own eye? Or how wilt you say to your brother, 'Let me cast out the mote out of your eye; and lo, the beam is in your own eye?

If any of us achieve salvation, it will not be through our own efforts, rather it will be through the grace, mercy and forgiveness of our God.

Yes, only God is able to judge our hearts and intentions. In Islam the merit of any deed is found in the intention behind it. We also rely on the 'grace, mercy and forgiveness of our God.'

If God could grant me salvation, then I pray that people of all beliefs and no beliefs can achieve salvation. I say this because I have family and friends of many diverse beliefs, and I would not like to see any of them suffer hell.

This is something I struggle with as I am the only Muslim in my family except for my wife, but I try not to dwell on it.

In the spirit of praying to One God

Eric

Amen to that, bro.

 

[Burninglight]

Have you actually read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?
Those are accounts by supposedly writers of matthew, john, luke and mark. And in many passages, even the third person account became the second person account.

Yes, be that as it may, it is what Allah said was sent and preserved. What are you saying then Allah can preserve, but he can't get his word to us? What point is there in preserving something if it is lost? If it is lost it is not preserved. I don't care if it is first, second or third hand account. What is important is that we have an account, and we do just as promised by God!

If one doesn't like the account because it clashes with newer revelation, then the newer must be suspect for God is not the author of confusion, He always confirms new prophets with the old. Does it not state that in the Quran? So we have a problem, the Bible clashes with the Quran. Who is the one really being manipulated by Satan?

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Burninglight;

the Bible clashes with the Quran. Who is the one really being manipulated by Satan?

Beyond any doubt the same God hears all our prayers, and God chooses whom he wills. But it seems that God has chosen us through the Christian faith, and our friends here, have been chosen by God through Islam.

It is beyond my understanding as to why God should choose us through our different faiths. Beyond any doubt whatsoever, I see my Catholic faith as being the One True Faith for me, and I believe that my faith is a gift from God.

I look at the deep faith of my Muslim brothers and sisters here, the way they talk about praying, fasting modesty, and their deep trust in their Scriptures. If my faith is a gift from God, I must also accept that their faith is also a gift from the same God.

In the spirit of praying to One God, every blessing to you all.

Eric

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you MustafaMc;

Thanks for your encouraging reply,

Every blessing to you and your family.

Eric

 

[MustafaMc]

Greetings and peace be with you MustafaMc;

Thanks for your encouraging reply,

Every blessing to you and your family.

Eric

And peace and blessings to you and yours my friend, Eric. Who can argue with you? You present your position in an unoffensive way without attacking others. You respect the faith of others though it is significantly different from yours. You look for common ground and you don't emphasize the differences. You should be a leader of an inter-faith dialog group. :statisfie