Discussion about the Qur'an and the Bible

Re: Why don't Muslims believe in the Trinity?

:sl:

More evidence from the quran which scientist have only discoverd in the past dacades.

Statements referring to human reproduction and development are scattered throughout the Qur'an. It is only recently that the scientific meaning of some of these verses has been appreciated fully. The long delay in interpreting these verses correctly resulted mainly from inaccurate translations and commentaries and from a lack of awareness of scientific knowledge.

Interest in explanations of the verses of the Qur'an is not new. People used to ask the prophet Muhammad all sorts of questions about the meaning of verses referring to human reproduction. The Apostle's answers form the basis of the Hadith literature.

"He makes you in the wombs of your mothers in stages, one after another, in three veils of darkness."

This statement is from Sura 39:6. We do not know when it was realized that human beings underwent development in the uterus (womb), but the first known illustration of a fetus in the uterus was drawn by Leonardo da Vinci in the 15th century. In the 2nd century A.D., Galen described the placenta and fetal membranes in his book "On The Formation of the Foetus." Consequently, doctors in the 7th century A.D. likely knew that the human embryo developed in the uterus. It is unlikely that they knew that it developed in stages, even though Aristotle had described the stages of development of the chick embryo in the 4th century B.C. The realization that the human embryo develops in stages was not discussed and illustrated until the 15th century.

After the microscope was discovered in the 17th century by Leeuwenhoek descriptions were made of the early stages of the chick embryo. The staging of human embryos was not described until the 20th century. Streeter (1941) developed the first system of staging which has now been replaced by a more accurate system proposed by O'Rahilly (1972).

"The three veils of darkness" may refer to: (l) the anterior abdominal wall; (2) the uterine wall; and (3) the amniochorionic membrane (Fig. 1). Although there are other interpretations of this statement, the one presented here seems the most logical from an embryological point of view.
Figure 1. Drawing of a sagittal section of a female's abdomen and pelvis showing a fetus in utero. The "veils of darkness" are: (1) the anterior abdominal wall; (2) the uterine wall, and (3) the amniochorionic membrane.



"Then We placed him as a drop in a place of rest."
This statement is from Sura 23:13. The drop or nutfah has been interpreted as the sperm or spermatozoon, but a more meaningful interpretation would be the zygote which divides to form a blastocyst which is implanted in the uterus ("a place of rest"). This interpretation is supported by another verse in the Qur'an which states that "a human being is created from a mixed drop." The zygote forms by the union of a mixture of the sperm and the ovum ("The mixed drop").

"Then We made the drop into a leech-like structure."
This statement is from Sura 23:14. The word "alaqah" refers to a leech or bloodsucker. This is an appropriate description of the human embryo from days 7-24 when it clings to the endometrium of the uterus, in the same way that a leech clings to the skin. Just as the leech derives blood from the host, the human embryo derives blood from the decidua or pregnant endometrium. It is remarkable how much the embryo of 23-24 days resembles a leech (Fig. 2). As there were no microscopes or lenses available in the 7th century, doctors would not have known that the human embryo had this leech-like appearance. In the early part of the fourth week, the embryo is just visible to the unaided eye because it is smaller than a kernel of wheat.
Figure 2. Top, a drawing of a leech or bloodsucker.
Below, a drawing of a 24 day-old human embryo. Note the leech-like appearance of the human embryo at this stage.
Figure 3. Left, a plasticine model of the human embryo which has the appearance of chewed flesh.
Right, a drawing of a 28 day-old human embryo showing several bead-like somites which resemble the teeth marks in the model shown to the left.



"Then of that leech-like structure, We made a chewed lump."
This statement is also from Sura 23:14. The Arabic word "mudghah" means "chewed substance or chewed lump." Toward the end of the fourth week, the human embryo looks somewhat like a chewed lump of flesh (Fig. 3). The chewed appearance results from the somites which resemble teeth marks. The somites represent the beginnings or primordia of the vertebrae.

"Then We made out of the chewed lump, bones, and clothed the bones in flesh."
This continuation of Sura 23:14 indicates that out of the chewed lump stage, bones and muscles form. This is in accordance with embryological development. First the bones form as cartilage models and then the muscles (flesh) develop around them from the somatic mesoderm.

"Then We developed out of it another creature."
This next part of Sura 23:14 implies that the bones and muscles result in the formation of another creature. This may refer to the human-like embryo that forms by the end of the eighth week. At this stage it has distinctive human characteristics and possesses the primordia of all the internal and external organs and parts. After the eighth week, the human embryo is called a fetus. This may be the new creature to which the verse refers.

"And He gave you hearing and sight and feeling and understanding."
This part of Sura 32:9 indicates that the special senses of hearing, seeing, and feeling develop in this order, which is true. The primordia of the internal ears appear before the beginning of the eyes, and the brain (the site of understanding) differentiates last.

"Then out of a piece of chewed flesh, partly formed and partly unformed."
This part of Sura 22:5 seems to indicate that the embryo is composed of both differentiated and undifferentiated tissues. For example, when the cartilage bones are differentiated, the embryonic connective tissue or mesenchyme around them is undifferentiated. It later differentiates into the muscles and ligaments attached to the bones.

"And We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term."
This next part of Sura 22:5 seems to imply that God determines which embryos will remain in the uterus until full term. It is well known that many embryos abort during the first month of development, and that only about 30% of zygotes that form, develop into fetuses that survive until birth. This verse has also been interpreted to mean that God determines whether the embryo will develop into a boy or girl.

The interpretation of the verses in the Qur'an referring to human development would not have been possible in the 7th century A.D., or even a hundred years ago. We can interpret them now because the science of modern Embryology affords us new understanding. Undoubtedly there are other verses in the Qur'an related to human development that will be understood in the future as our knowledge increases
 
Re: The Bible and the Qur'an

by trying to do good deeds all the time you are just stressing out....
God didn't make religion stressful to follow,

"On no soul doth God Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns.... "---2:286

Whatever one is not capable of doing good or falls into a sin, they can pray for God's mercy and the act of submission is in and of itself relaxing.
and you guys beat yalls wifes... violence in your god..
That's a pretty stereotypical view you have there. Domestic violence happens everywhere. But you will find many don't believe in beating their wives because the Quran does not tell us that. You would have to read the correct interpretions of the verses.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...h-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544256

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutat...se-beating-wives.html?highlight=beating+wives
 
Re: Why don't Muslims believe in the Trinity?

can you prove that the quran is gods words?

Yes I Can!!! If It's Not The Word Of God Then U Can Change It!
So Many People Tried To Change It But No One Suceeded!
It Contains Stories About The Past And The Future!
The Quran Is The Same As It Is!
U Can Never Destroy It!
Even Though You Collect All The Printed Books Of Quran And Burn Them, You Can Never Delete It From This World!
We Muslims Can Bring Back The Quran In 10 Days Without Even One Letter Missing In It!!!! Because we have it stored in our hearts!! we have memorised it!
PLEASE DO A RESEARCH FOR ME! IF THERE IS ANYONE WHO HAS MEMORISED THE BIBLE, TAKE A MAN WHO'S AGE IS ABOVE 40 AND TAKE A CHILD WHO'S AGE IS BELOW 11, AND TELL THEM TO RECITE THE BIBLE FROM STARTING TO THE END. I WONDER, WILL THEY KNOW THAT? OR WOULD THEY RECITE THE SAME THING? AND GOD KNOWS WHAT WOULD HAPPEN BEST!!!!!

I HEARD FROM ANOTHER CHRISTIAN WHEN I WAS CHATTING WITH HER THAT IN THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT THEY WILL KNOW THE TRUE RELIGION. IS THAT TRUE? SO U PPL DEPEND ON THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT? DOESNT THE BIBLE INFORM YOU THAT THE JUDGEMENT DAY WOULD BE A DAY OF TERROR? SO WHAT WILL BENIFIT YOU IF U BELIEVE THAT ISLAM IS TRUE RELIGION ON THAT DAY? EVEN A MUSLIM WHO HAVEN'T PRAYED OR DO ANY GOOD DEED, HE WILL SURELY BE IN HELL! HIS NAME " MUSLIM " WON'T HELP HIM! SO WILL IT HELP THE CHRISTIANS AND OTHER RELIGIONS?


IM SURE ABOUT QURAN!!!! BECAUSE IF IT'S NOT THE WORD OF GOD YOU WON'T HESITATE TO MAKE A CHAPTER OF IT OR TO CHANGE IT! NOW YOU BETTER PROVE UR WORD! I THINK UR AFRAID THAT U CAN'T DO IT!
 
Re: Why don't Muslims believe in the Trinity?

Yes I Can!!! If It's Not The Word Of God Then U Can Change It!
So Many People Tried To Change It But No One Suceeded!
It Contains Stories About The Past And The Future!
The Quran Is The Same As It Is!
U Can Never Destroy It!
Even Though You Collect All The Printed Books Of Quran And Burn Them, You Can Never Delete It From This World!
We Muslims Can Bring Back The Quran In 10 Days Without Even One Letter Missing In It!!!! Because we have it stored in our hearts!! we have memorised it!
PLEASE DO A RESEARCH FOR ME! IF THERE IS ANYONE WHO HAS MEMORISED THE BIBLE, TAKE A MAN WHO'S AGE IS ABOVE 40 AND TAKE A CHILD WHO'S AGE IS BELOW 11, AND TELL THEM TO RECITE THE BIBLE FROM STARTING TO THE END. I WONDER, WILL THEY KNOW THAT? OR WOULD THEY RECITE THE SAME THING? AND GOD KNOWS WHAT WOULD HAPPEN BEST!!!!!

I HEARD FROM ANOTHER CHRISTIAN WHEN I WAS CHATTING WITH HER THAT IN THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT THEY WILL KNOW THE TRUE RELIGION. IS THAT TRUE? SO U PPL DEPEND ON THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT? DOESNT THE BIBLE INFORM YOU THAT THE JUDGEMENT DAY WOULD BE A DAY OF TERROR? SO WHAT WILL BENIFIT YOU IF U BELIEVE THAT ISLAM IS TRUE RELIGION ON THAT DAY? EVEN A MUSLIM WHO HAVEN'T PRAYED OR DO ANY GOOD DEED, HE WILL SURELY BE IN HELL! HIS NAME " MUSLIM " WON'T HELP HIM! SO WILL IT HELP THE CHRISTIANS AND OTHER RELIGIONS?


IM SURE ABOUT QURAN!!!! BECAUSE IF IT'S NOT THE WORD OF GOD YOU WON'T HESITATE TO MAKE A CHAPTER OF IT OR TO CHANGE IT! NOW YOU BETTER PROVE UR WORD! I THINK UR AFRAID THAT U CAN'T DO IT!
yes it does.. for some.. though.. but if you already know that you will be saved then there is no need of terror... though it still says fear God.. not because of the law.. but just because He will protect you..
 
Re: Why don't Muslims believe in the Trinity?

Salaam

PRISONERofJOY12 have you read my post above, Now can you tell me the bible goes into detail about aspects of the world such as birth, the Big Bang etc, which all have been proven by scientist.
 
Re: Why don't Muslims believe in the Trinity?

yes it does.. for some.. though.. but if you already know that you will be saved then there is no need of terror... though it still says fear God.. not because of the law.. but just because He will protect you..

Like i've said before:

If you dont prepare for a exam - do you think you'll do well and get high results after the exam?

Or do you think you have to work hard and get good marks (good deeds) in this life so you can have enough good marks (good deeds) to pass your exam?


Muslims believe that we have to do good in this life to be successful for the afterlife. Unlike the christians who believe they'll be saved anyway.
 
Re: Why don't Muslims believe in the Trinity?

so God can't have son why is that? what about Jesus his virgin birth? who do you think the father is? come on think... it will come to you soon...
muhammad might have saw someone other than God I mean come on who do you think the best trickter is? look at john smith... mormonism...

Salaam

PRISONERofJOY12 I challange you to show verses which talk about things such as the earth, water, birth from the bible which have been proven by scientist.
 
Re: The Bible and the Qur'an

is the Qur'an even unified? the whole Bible testifies of Jesus..
read John 5:39, 46, 47,KJV.
The OT is a preparation-- ISAIAH 40:3
The Gospels are the manifestation- John 1:29
Acts is the propagation-- Act 1:8
Epistles give the explanation-- Colossian 1:27
Revelation is the consummation-- Revelation 1:7.

the Bible is a unity which every part needs the other to be completed.

"To the writers of the New Testament, the Hebrew Bible was Holy Scripture and they were the direct heirs of its prophets. It is, accordingly, quite impossible to understand the New Testament without recognizing that its purpose was to supplement and explain the Hebrew Bible."" DR. W. F. Albright

"Lest anyone think this isn't something marvelous, we'd like to give you this challenge. Find ten people from your local area having similar backgrounds, who speak the same language, and all are from basically the same culture. Then separate them and ask them to write their opinion on the only one controversial subject, such as the meaning of life. compare when they are finished.. do they agree with each other? of course not.. " Roger T. Forster and V Paul Marston, That's a good question, p. 67.
 
Re: Why don't Muslims believe in the Trinity?

Yes your are right Jesus was tempted

Jesus... god... was tempted?! :? :?

The devil tempted GOD?! How is that?! :skeleton:

Can you give us a logical answer that you urself believe, not was told to you by ur priests and ministers!?!


*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
:) To know about Islam in general:
http://itolerance.4t.com/

:) To know about the 20 Most Common Questions about ISLAM:
http://20questions.4t.com/
 
Re: The Bible and the Qur'an

JKF

There are many doubts about who wrote the New Testament, when it was written, and if it changed by time!

You can refer to Britannica and search by Mark, Luke, ..etc. and you will found that the authenticity of the Gospels is in trouble! These sections werent written by seculars but with knowledgable Christian clergymen.



*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
:) To know about Islam in general:
http://itolerance.4t.com/

:) To know about the 20 Most Common Questions about ISLAM:
http://20questions.4t.com/
 
Re: Why don't Muslims believe in the Trinity?

Salaam

PRISONERofJOY12 have you read my post above, Now can you tell me the bible goes into detail about aspects of the world such as birth, the Big Bang etc, which all have been proven by scientist.


The problem about debating with Christians is that they dont like to really consider ur views and discuss them, but rather want you to accept their own views without real discussion, as they were told in the church "leave ur brain before you enter the church".

They think with the heart and want us to do the same, unfortunately!

The whole truth lies in between the covers of the New Testament and they dont want to go deep and understand and analyse what was told or what was done.

They interpret the gospels as the priests tell them. They lack the logical interpretation of the words of J. and his disciples.

They say that J. is god because of his miracles, but J. himself and Peter, one of his disciples attributed the miracles to God as a kind of support to Jesus.

So where is the solid proof that J. is god because he could cure patients or make dead people alive if this was done by God not by him?!:-\




*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
:) To know about Islam in general:
http://itolerance.4t.com/

:) To know about the 20 Most Common Questions about ISLAM:
http://20questions.4t.com/
 
Re: The Bible and the Qur'an

prisioner of joy........

I noticed that in your reply, where you amongst other things say muslims beat there wifes, you used "..." 19 times. Then you ask us:- "if you know what i mean?"!

I really don't know what you mean.

Thats because:
1- you don't answer when others ask you about christianity
2- you presume many things about islam without coming with proof,
3 - you contradict yourself, like for example when you say you strive to become a good christian( by going to church and listening to your father-and the way i know christianity, there are also many other moral laws wich one has to respect like being good to your next and so on) but at the same time you cannot accept when we muslims pray to an appointed place!

So my question is:
Do you want to learn about islam?

Or you have already understood islam but have the feeling that " im affraid to follow the right way just because that's not what my fathers and forefathers believed!"

Because if that's the case, relax!!! Ask the Only God to help you! You know he listens! And that He is the Most Merciful. Wouldn't you agree?

And by the way a large number of cardinals in the U.s.a have been convicted of raping little boys. So tell me: Is that what christianity is all about?

You don't ear me saying that.

Another question! Why is that when a muslim makes somthing criminal people say a muslim has than this and that, but when a christian does something criminal he is just a criminal and no one mentions his faith?
 
Bible debate

I've got my bible on my lap here ready to begin debate. Keeping within the boundaries of the rules of the board......Any Christians want to go a few rounds? Topic of discussion: Contradictions in the bible.

Thanks to my little booklet, 101 clear contradictions in the bible, and thanks to my sunday school teacher when I was younger, I'm ready...

Does God change his mind?
- Yes. "The word of the Lord came to Samuel: "I repent that I have made Saul King.." (I Samuel 15:10 to 11) (You may also find "I regret" or "I grieve")

- No. God "will not lie or repent; for he is not a man, that he should repent" (I Samuel 15:29)

- Yes. "And the Lord repented that he had made Saul king over Israel" (I Samuel 15:35)

also...
1. "the lord was sorry that he had made man" (Genesis 6:6)
2. "and the lord repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people" (Exodus 32:14)

.
 
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Re: The Qur'an and the Bible

:sl:

Threads Merged:

Since we already have a topic discussing the Bible and the Qur'an, I thought I would merge this thread with the other. This way, if Christians bring up issues about the Qur'an, we can also deal with them here Insha'Allaah.

:w:
 
Re: The Qur'an and the Bible

:sl:

Threads Merged:

Since we already have a topic discussing the Bible and the Qur'an, I thought I would merge this thread with the other. This way, if Christians bring up issues about the Qur'an, we can also deal with them here Insha'Allaah.

:w:

Thank you!! I don't really comb through the threads so you'll find insha allah I'm going to make your job a little harder!
 
Re: The Qur'an and the Bible

Assalam Alakium,

Bible Contradiction Number 1:

"In six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed" (Exodus 31:17)

Rebuttal:
Since when does GOD rest? He does not display any human attributes of weakness or fatigue. The enitre Bible was mistranslated and here is where the Qur'an fixs it:

"And verily We created the heaves and the earth and all that is between them in six periods, and naught of weariness touched us" (The Noble Qur'an Surah 50:38)

Please remember that when GOD refers to We he is including the Angels as they were watching him create. GOD does NOT get tired. That is just plain silly.

"Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him" (The Noble Qur'an Surah 2:255)

GOD brought us the Qur'an 600 years after Jesus walked the earth because the words got so screwed up no one can easilt deciper them. Reading the Qur'an is as easy to understand as a kid's book. GOD, Allah his Arabic name, wanted to help us.

The Bible is full of contradictions and mistranlastaions. Allah knows EVERYTHING! He knew how crazy the days would be in 2005 so he gave us the Qur'an after Jesus to help us. It says everything the Bible does, just in more detail and not different than the original text like the Bible. Even Christan shcolars admit we do not have the truest words GOD wanted us to have, but that is why the Qur'an is the Last Book. To solve this once and for all.

Contradiction number 2:

"Awake, why sleepest thou, O Lord? arise, cast us not off for ever." (Psalms 44:23)

Since when does GOD sleep? Where would we be if GOD needed to sleep? With the same Quote from the Qur'an above, Allah, GOD, brought the Qur'an NOT to replace the Torah (Old Testament), or the Bible, but to correct and undo the misconceptions Man has done to them both and to warn Humanity once and for all himself.

"Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him" (The Noble Qur'an Surah 2:255)

The original manuscripts had been lost! BUT, NOT THE QUR'AN manuscripts. That was GOD's will to protect the 3rd Book!!

The Bible's "original manuscripts had been lost" according to the Christian scholars and theologians:

Some Christians decided to respond to many of the Bible's contradictions. They named their site "101 Clear Contradictions in the Bible." Ironically, their own quotes below refute them! For example, you can do a search on this text in their site: "Confirmation of this type of copyist error is found in various pagan writers as well."Even those Christian scholars admit with their own typed words by their own fingers that the Bible does indeed contain "copyist error(s)", and they lowered their Holy Scripture to the level of a pagan book through their comparison. My question is then, how can it be the word of GOD when it contains Satanic "copyist errors"?


You have to have the Qur'an to explain the Bible!


IF you read the Qur'an, it is better detail anyway, why don't you read it in its entiretiy before judging it!


The Times October 05, 2005 By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent

THE hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has published a teaching document instructing the faithful that some parts of the Bible are not actually true.

The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning their five million worshippers, as well as any others drawn to the study of scripture, that they should not expect “total accuracy” from the Bible.

“We should not expect to find in Scripture full scientific accuracy or complete historical precision,” they say in The Gift of Scripture.

The document is timely, coming as it does amid the rise of the religious Right, in particular in the US.

Some Christians want a literal interpretation of the story of creation, as told in Genesis, taught alongside Darwin’s theory of evolution in schools, believing “intelligent design” to be an equally plausible theory of how the world began.

But the first 11 chapters of Genesis, in which two different and at times conflicting stories of creation are told, are among those that this country’s Catholic bishops insist cannot be “historical”. At most, they say, they may contain “historical traces”.

The document shows how far the Catholic Church has come since the 17th century, when Galileo was condemned as a heretic for flouting a near-universal belief in the divine inspiration of the Bible by advocating the Copernican view of the solar system. Only a century ago, Pope Pius X condemned Modernist Catholic scholars who adapted historical-critical methods of analysing ancient literature to the Bible.

In the document, the bishops acknowledge their debt to biblical scholars. They say the Bible must be approached in the knowledge that it is “God’s word expressed in human language” and that proper acknowledgement should be given both to the word of God and its human dimensions.

They say the Church must offer the gospel in ways “appropriate to changing times, intelligible and attractive to our contemporaries”.

The Bible is true in passages relating to human salvation, they say, but continue: “We should not expect total accuracy from the Bible in other, secular matters.”

They go on to condemn fundamentalism for its “intransigent intolerance” and to warn of “significant dangers” involved in a fundamentalist approach.

“Such an approach is dangerous, for example, when people of one nation or group see in the Bible a mandate for their own superiority, and even consider themselves permitted by the Bible to use violence against others.”

Of the notorious anti-Jewish curse in Matthew 27:25, “His blood be on us and on our children”, a passage used to justify centuries of anti-Semitism, the bishops say these and other words must never be used again as a pretext to treat Jewish people with contempt. Describing this passage as an example of dramatic exaggeration, the bishops say they have had “tragic consequences” in encouraging hatred and persecution. “The attitudes and language of first-century quarrels between Jews and Jewish Christians should never again be emulated in relations between Jews and Christians.”

As examples of passages not to be taken literally, the bishops cite the early chapters of Genesis, comparing them with early creation legends from other cultures, especially from the ancient East. The bishops say it is clear that the primary purpose of these chapters was to provide religious teaching and that they could not be described as historical writing.

Similarly, they refute the apocalyptic prophecies of Revelation, the last book of the Christian Bible, in which the writer describes the work of the risen Jesus, the death of the Beast and the wedding feast of Christ the Lamb.

The bishops say: “Such symbolic language must be respected for what it is, and is not to be interpreted literally. We should not expect to discover in this book details about the end of the world, about how many will be saved and about when the end will come.”

In their foreword to the teaching document, the two most senior Catholics of the land, Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor, Archbishop of Westminster, and Cardinal Keith O’Brien, Archbishop of St Andrew’s and Edinburgh, explain its context.

They say people today are searching for what is worthwhile, what has real value, what can be trusted and what is really true.

The new teaching has been issued as part of the 40th anniversary celebrations of Dei Verbum, the Second Vatican Council document explaining the place of Scripture in revelation. In the past 40 years, Catholics have learnt more than ever before to cherish the Bible. “We have rediscovered the Bible as a precious treasure, both ancient and ever new.”

A Christian charity is sending a film about the Christmas story to every primary school in Britain after hearing of a young boy who asked his teacher why Mary and Joseph had named their baby after a swear word. The Breakout Trust raised £200,000 to make the 30-minute animated film, It’s a Boy. Steve Legg, head of the charity, said: “There are over 12 million children in the UK and only 756,000 of them go to church regularly.

That leaves a staggering number who are probably not receiving basic Christian teaching.”

The Book of Jeremiah claims about the Bible being altered to fit their purpose and cover up their shame: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. " (Jeremiah 8:8)"

As we clearly see, the Jews had altered the Law of the LORD (i.e., the Revelations sent to Moses) and turned it into a "lie". Let us further examine the history of the Bible and read the quotes of many of the Bible's theologians:


"Christians readily admit, however, that there have been 'scribal errors' in the copies of the Old and New Testament. It is beyond the capability of anyone to avoid any and every slip of the pen in copying page after page from any book, sacred or secular. Yet we may be sure that the original manuscript (better known as autograph) of each book of the Bible, being directly inspired by God, was free from all error. Those originals, however, because of the early date of their inception no longer exist."

"Because we are dealing with accounts which were written thousands of years ago, we would not expect to have the originals in our possession today, as they would have disintegrated long ago. We are therefore dependent on the copies taken from copies of those originals, which were in turn continually copied out over a period of centuries. Those who did the copying were prone to making two types of scribal errors. One concerned the spelling of proper names, and the other had to do with numbers."

"Most Christians will affirm that the Bible is our rule of faith and practice. It is a little self contradictory to stand in the pulpit and say the word of God is inspired, when in his heart the pastor knows he is not referring to any book here on this earth that people can hold in their hands and believe. He really should say what he believes - that the word of God WAS inspired at one time but we no longer have it, so the best we can do is hope we have a close approximation of what God probably meant to tell us."

"It also seems a bit inconsistent to say he believes the originals were inspired, when he has never seen them, they never were together in one single book and they no longer exist anyway. How does he know they were inspired? He accepts this by faith. Yet he seems to lack the faith to actually believe that God could do exactly what He said He would do with His words. God said He would preserve them and that heaven and earth would pass away but His words would not pass away."


The Bible's contents today were not written by their original authors. For example, we read from the book of Matthew so many verses such as this one:

"...And as Jesus passed forth thence, HE (Jesus) saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and HE (Jesus) saith unto HIM (Matthew), follow ME (Jesus) and HE (Matthew) arose, and followed HIM (Jesus). (Matthew 9:9)"

Did "Matthew" write this about himself? Why then didn't Matthew write for example: "he (Jesus) saw ME, and my name is Matthew. I was sitting at the receipt of custom…" etc.

Similarly, we read in the books of Moses things such as "And the LORD said to Moses...", or "Moses went to that place....", etc... We also read in the Old Testament about Moses' burial. Now if Moses alone supposedly wrote his books, then how is it possible for him to write about his own burial when he is already dead??!!

Such evidence can be found in many places throughout the Old Testament and the New Testament. The so called "Original letters/Gospels" that were written in Greek and Hebrew, were written by third party people!


HOW WOULD MUHAMMED KNOW THE EARTH WAS ROUND IN 600AD AND CHRISTOPHER COLUMBUS COULDN'T FIGURE IT OUT UNTIL 1492AD?


IT TALKS ABOUT 11 PLANETS, A SUN, AND A MOON AND EMBRYOLOGY!


Peace,


sisterKhadija
 
Re: The Qur'an and the Bible

Sister Khadijah

Did God get tired and needed rest when he created the world ? Of course not.
It is only a naive way of expressing things that the writers of the Bible used. Let's keep in mind that the Bible is not like the Quran the very words from God, but it is written by men with the mindset of their time, under God's inspiration.

The Quran thinks that the Bible is the very Word of God. So it takes every word in a literal way because it is not accustomed to distinguish between what is said in a symbolic way or not.

So when the Quran says "....naught of weariness touched Us" and "neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him", it is actually the Quran that is naive to think the Jews and the Christians believe God needs rest.

"Reading the Qur'an is as easy to understand as a kid's book."
I would like to believe that, but it is contradicted either by what I read in the Quran or by what other Muslims say.

"Awake, why sleepest thou, O Lord? arise, cast us not off for ever." (Psalms 44:23)
This is a poetic way of saying that God does not answer. Those who take those words literally are either naive or wily.

How is it possible to state that the Quran manuscripts have not been lost !
If they have not been destroyed by Uthman, where are they ?
 
Re: The Qur'an and the Bible

The Quran thinks that the Bible is the very Word of God.
Wrong. The Qur'an says that the Prophets originally recieved direct revelation. Nowhere does it speak about the present day Bible, whether Old testament or New Testament.
So it takes every word in a literal way because it is not accustomed to distinguish between what is said in a symbolic way or not.
Wrong again. Though Christians today have softened many of their doctrines and claimed that they are symbolic, this is not how they were understood by a vast majority of Christians previously. Take for example the Christian claim that Jesus is only 'spiritually' the son of God as opposed to literally.
Here are the verses from the Gospels of Matthew and Luke:

Matthew:

NKJV (New King James Version): "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." - Matt 1:18

Comment: Came together to do what? To play Yatzee? NO! This is a SEXUAL reference. It means before they came together “as one flesh (Genesis 2:24)” as husband and wife.

NLT (New Living Translation, 1996): "Now this is how Jesus the Messiah was born. His mother, Mary, was engaged to be married to Joseph. But while she was still a virgin, she became PREGNANT by the Holy Spirit."

Comment: The Holy Spirit who is the third person of God (according to Christians) got Mary "pregnant." -- Not MY word. This is from the NLT verbatim.

NKJV: "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost."- Matt 1:20

Comment: The Holy Ghost (God Almighty) "conceived" Jesus.

Luke:

NKJV: "Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?” -
Luke 1:34

Comment: Know not a man in what way? -- Physically, sexually.

NKJV: "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." - Luke 1:35

NASB (New American Standard Bible, 1995): "The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for THAT REASON the holy Child shall be called the Son of God."

Comment: Jesus is called the "Son of God" BECAUSE the Holy Spirit came upon and overshadowed Mary ("for that reason" and for that reason only).

Analysis:

Let's look again at the above verses but with a slight change. Let's say that Scott and Amy are to be married. What is the role of Steve in this relationship?

"Now this is how John Smith was born. His mother, Amy, was engaged to be married to Scott. But while she was still a virgin, she became PREGNANT by Steve Smith."

"But while he (Scott) thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Scott, fear not to take unto thee Amy thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of Steve Smith."

Luke:

"Then said Amy unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not Scott (sexually)?" - Luke 1:34

"The angel answered and said to her, "Steve Smith will come upon you, and the power of the Steve will overshadow you; and for THAT REASON the Child shall be called the Son of Steve."

Final Analysis:

If I present this to an impartial and objective person, where do you think his common sense will lead him? Just because Christians today have revamped their dogma regarding the virgin birth and now call it a "spiritual" or "metaphorical" event--which is a lot more palatable for missionary purposes--does not hide the FACT that the earliest of Christian communities, books, Church Fathers, and Creeds ALL subscribed to the notion that Jesus was the literal (physically begotten) Son of God and that Mary was made "pregnant" by God who "conceived" a Son.

"Neo-Christianity" is not what the Qur'an is refuting. The Qur'an is refuting what the Christian Creeds are actually saying, that is ORTHODOX belief. To say that Jesus is "spiritually" the Son of God is quite UNorthodox. The Church of Scotland in the early 90's stated that Christians need not believe in the Virgin Birth! Do Christians believe this is an orthodox position? By the same token, the BILLIONS of Christians who lived in the past would call the modern evangelical suggestion that Jesus is “spiritually” the Son of God blasphemy.
How is it possible to state that the Quran manuscripts have not been lost !
If they have not been destroyed by Uthman, where are they ?
This is a common error made by those who know very little of Islam. The lies against the Qur'an's preservation have been refuted in great detail by M. M. Al-Azami in The History of the Qur'anic text as well as here:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/
Witness the manuscrpts for yourself.

Regards
 
Re: The Qur'an and the Bible

Ansar

I do not know if the Quran speaks or not about the present day Bible. That remains to be proven. Is for example the Tawra from the Quran a part of the Bible or not ?

My point is that the people who wrote the Quran mistakenly thought that the Bible writers believed that God could get tired and needed rest. That is the reason why they naively added that Allah could not get tired. Just a "my God is better than yours" attitude.

It is true that Christians believed for centuries many things in the Bible to be true, until science and archeology proved them wrong. As they were not bound by a "direct revelation from God" dogma, they adapted to modern science.

Christians believe that Jesus is spiritually AND literally the Son of God. I don't know what you are refering to ? Christians have never claimed that Jesus was an ethereal being. He was conceived, grew in his mother's womb, and was born like any other child. As for his conception, Christians believe it was God himself who started the process. For biological details ask people who believe in virgin births. There are plenty around.
As far as I know Christians have never changed their beliefs about the virgin birth.

The story that all manuscripts from Muhammad's time were destroyed by Uthman may be a lie, but then where does that lie come from ? It is the first time that I see that story denied.
The Quran pages that are on the link are very approximately dated. They look similar in style and rather neatly written.
I still do not see any of those thousands of small texts written on various objects by the Prophet's secretaries. Many have certainly not resisted to time but many, even erased, must have been kept as the holiest of relics. Where are they ?
 
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Re: The Qur'an and the Bible

I do not know if the Quran speaks or not about the present day Bible. That remains to be proven. Is for example the Tawra from the Quran a part of the Bible or not ?

I have been seriously overestimating you. First your ignorance of the fact that Muslims follow the Sunnah and uses it as an exlanation of the Qur'an, and now this.
The Tawrah and Injeel mentioned in the Qur'an don't refer to todays Tawrah and Injeel, rather it refers to the original ones. Todays Bible is considered to be corrupted by men and the Bible we as Muslims have to believe in is the original, uncorrupted one.

My point is that the people who wrote the Quran mistakenly thought that the Bible writers believed that God could get tired and needed rest. That is the reason why they naively added that Allah could not get tired. Just a "my God is better than yours" attitude.

Hmmm, so the same can be said for the verse: "Lam yalid wa lam yulad" (He begets not nor is He begotten)".
The writers naively added this, because they thought that Christians believe that God has a son?

Besides, you seem to think that Ayat al-Kursi (the verse in which the part about God sleeping is mentioned) came as a rebuttal to Christian dogma. You have no knowledge of the verse in question and you just guessed that the statement that God doesn't sleep is an answer to Christian belief. What is your proof for this? And if it indeed was "made-up" for this purpose, how do you know that the authors thought that the Christians of that time didn't believe that God physically rested. Also, how do you know that they didn't believe this?
If you want to guess, feel free to do so. But don't try to make your guessing-game some kind of proven fact.
The statement refers to the fact that God is aware of everything and His power, as explained by ibn Kathir:

(Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him) means, no shortcoming, unawareness or ignorance ever touches Allah. Rather, He is aware of, and controls what every soul earns, has perfect watch over everything, nothing escapes His knowledge, and no secret matter is secret to Him. Among His perfect attributes, is the fact that He is never effected by slumber or sleep.

This may seem unimportant to mention. However, if we take into consideration the fact that we have some people imagining and painting God as an old, white man with beard, streatching His finger to Adam. We have some people believing that He repented and cried because of the things He did to the Jews. We have some people believing that He wrestled against Israel (Jacob) and lost. We have some people believing that God had to look for Adam (He couldn't find him) after Adam had sinned. We have people believing that God died (on a cross), etc.
Because of this, it is very important to mention things like:

La takhudhuhu sinatun wa la nawm (Neither sleep nor slumber overtakes Him)
Lam yalid wa lam yulad (He begets not nor is He begotten)
wa lam yukullahu kufuwan ahad (There is nothing like unto Him)
 
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