For all non-muslims in this site

[glo]

I was just what Glo writes. Atheist Christian before. I was member of church in cause my parents. But I am I, not them. I read many religions, they teachings, history before I understood that I have to be muslim.

:statisfie

Thanks Glo. I may understand myself better when I read your posts.

I sometimes feel that rather than trying to push people to convert to one faith or another, we should encourage people the become earnest and honest seekers - and then rejoice with them when they find the path they believe is the right one to walk (which isn't always easy when the path THEY choose isn't the path WE have chosen for ourselves ... but that's the challenge of free will and religious freedom. :shade

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Darth Ultor;

but religion itself lowers God to the level of man. I mean, think about it. The Torah, the Gospel, and the Quran give God attributes like jealousy, the ability to hold grudges, anger, the ability to make the wrong decisions...do I need to go further?

I think if you were able to look down on mankind and see all the things that God sees; you would not be very happy either.

God is greater than His creation because He doesn't habe the faults of His creation. He is perfect.

Agreed.

In the spirit of searching for a just and merciful God.

Eric

 

[greenhill]

Peace to you Darth Ultor,

"Simple. I don't like religions. They all have double standards and believe that if you don't follow what they say, you'll go to hell."

I think the double standard is caused by human flaws. It is not God's work. Most of the misconceptions are caused by people themselves through either not understanding the situation, or the options available to them. There are often caveats to certain sets of rules, not all have caveats, but the underlying theme usually is defined by 'intent'.

All religion can be painted in a harsh light and portrayed in an extreme way to the point where one mentions Islam, the associated word to it is something totally different. Islam is entirely different from portrayed image in the media.

I don't subscribe to God being jealous, holding grudges or making mistakes, these are human arguments. God laid down some rules, essentially to worship Him alone, do good, be kind, etc, and you get your just rewards, if you don't then you get your penance. There's no grudge, jealousy or mistakes in judgement here.

 

[Ahmad H]

all faiths but religion itself lowers God to the level of man. I mean, think about it. The Torah, the Gospel, and the Quran give God attributes like jealousy, the ability to hold grudges, anger, the ability to make the wrong decisions...do I need to go further? God is greater than His creation because He doesn't habe the faults of His creation. He is perfect.

Darth Ultor, I think these ideas of jealousy are more akin to the Biblical God. I don't believe you have read or studied the Qur'an. God doesn't hold any grudges, and His giving punishment does not make Him human. I hope you can take a little time to read why:

When He punishes a nation of people, He is doing it as a last resort after sending Prophets to them to try and reform them. Sometimes He sends multiple Prophets that are killed. He gives every chance for those people to change their ways first. He does not send it out of hate or anger. It is done so that the nation which is deemed to be punished doesn't continue to spread their corruption beyond their own borders into the rest of the world. It is like taking a diseased limb out of the body and removing it to save the rest. That is what that nation is compared to the rest of the world. They weren't just corrupt, but they were aiming to spread their corruption.

As for anger, God deals with everyone's punishment severely because He only does it to the absolute worst of people. As for this punishment itself, He is the only One Who can do it. Humans are not allowed to punish like God does. For example, if a child does wrong, we are not allowed to hit our children because only Allah punishes. The only situation in which it is allowed for us to hit our children, is to get them to do their prayer around the age of 10 so that they realize they need to be obedient to Allah. And perhaps at later ages if they do not listen. Otherwise, we have no right to do so. And that is only when they refuse to go and pray. This has more to do with the fact that we Muslims believe that we exist in the first place to recognize Allah and worship Him. Furthermore, it is forbidden for us to punish with fire, because only Allah punishes with fire. That is reserved for Him.

The traits that we humans have are part of some of the traits which God has anyways. If He is our Creator, then having been made in His image, what else would you expect? If the Bible teaches that, then it is really obvious that from the get go it tells you that some of our traits are really His traits. For example, take love. If God is Perfect, then why does He love? The answer is that His love is Perfect. The love that creation shares with one another, the love of a mother for her children (which no love can be greater than this) which is seen by animals and humans, is only 1/100th of the kind of love which Allah has for us.

As for His punishment, you need only look at this one Hadith:

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "When Allah completed the creation, He wrote in His Book which is with Him on His Throne, "My mercy overpowers My Anger." (Book #54, Hadith #416)
(Sahih Bukhari)

The perfect knowledge of Allah comes from knowing what His 99 attributes are. He also commands self-respect among humans like He has for Himself:

Narrated Abu Wail: 'Abdullah (bin Mas'ud) said, "None has more sense of ghaira than Allah therefore - He prohibits shameful sins (illegal sexual intercourse, etc.) whether committed openly or secretly. And none loves to be praised more than Allah does, and for this reason He praises Himself." I asked Abu Wali, "Did you hear it from Abdullah?" He said, "Yes," I said, "Did Abdullah ascribe it to Allah's Apostle?" He said, "Yes." (Book #60, Hadith #158)
(Sahih Bukhari)

As for praising Himself, this is because His praise is the perfect praise and there is no taint of want or need in it. He is the only One worthy of all praise. The second verse of the Qur'an says, "All praise belongs to Allah" in Surah Fatiha. We may have the traits of self-respect, but only Allah has the perfect self-respect. So if He has any traits, He has it to perfection. His anger is limited by His Mercy, and it never overcomes it like it does in humans. Only humans can be tyrants.

 

[IAmZamzam]

They all have double standards…

That was hardly communicative.

…and believe that if you don’t follow what they say, you’ll go to hell.

Do you have any idea what a small percentage of the world’s religions even teach the existence of hell in the first place?

Granted there are many religious people that I like in all faiths but religion itself lowers God to the level of man. I mean, think about it. The Torah, the Gospel, and the Quran give God attributes like jealousy…

"The Gospel" as in "al-Injil"? That can't even be positively identified, except as something personally recorded (in some sense) by Jesus. If you're referring to biblical texts then I prefer to let the Christians here speak for themselves (i.e. I'm going to be lazy about that). Anyway name the place where The Qur’an tells us that He’s a jealous God. Go ahead, name it. That is The Torah you’re thinking of (or the version of it we have now, anyway).

…the ability to hold grudges, anger…

Off the top of my head I can’t remember a specific verse about Allah being angry with anyone or holding a grudge but in this case I can easily grant the possibility. I do know of a hadith in which He says to a man who is released from hell that the true greatest gift he’s been given is “my good pleasure, for I shall now never be angry with you again”. But is anger an inherently evil trait, without any times when it is justified? Remember that The Qur’an is a poem. If it’s allowed to describe the heaven and the earth as “coming forth willingly” when they were created, and shadows “prostrating themselves” to Allah, there is certainly nothing wrong with it using the same literary device when describing Allah himself!

the ability to make the wrong decisions...do I need to go further? God is greater than His creation because He doesn't habe the faults of His creation. He is perfect.

Yes, you do, because you have once again not supported your assertions. It is—yet again—The Bible and not The Qur’an which keeps saying things like “and The LORD repented of the evil which He thought to do to His people”. Not once does this happen in His true holy Word.

You see what I mean about antireligious people typically seeming to just be soured by Christianity or some other particular belief system? They think it’s all the same to them and they’re quite adamant about that but actions speak louder than words and their actions betray them time and again. You keep saying that this stuff is in all of these biblical texts as well as in The Qur'an--but it keeps turning out to be only The Bible you're really thinking of and getting mad about.

 

[Gator]

Hola,

what's holding you back to becoming muslim?

Not believing in god would probably be the # 1 reason.

why are you even here if you are not planning to become muslim?

I like learning about religion and like hearing where people are coming from.

don't you realize that if you have looked up information on islam and if any of the members here told you the truth about islam, you have would to make a BIG decision.

I don't see it as a "decision". I mean, if I do or don't believe it, it not really choice. You can't really choose to live one way if you believe something else.

Plus, I would think god would be able to tell.

If you still reject islam after hearing the exact truth about it, you could be in trouble in the here after.

Could be.

Thanks.

 

[Jedi_Mindset]

if you non-muslims wanted to ask some questions about islam, that's fine, but once you asked your questions and got them answered, you can leave the forum and not say anything else after that. Lurking in this particular forum and not having the intention of becoming muslim is just pointless.

Thats not how you should treat each other mate. This forum has the view to reach a common ground between different faiths. Work on your character first. You are basically forcing them to become muslims and that isnt islamic behaviour at all, the sahabah(Ra) conquered lands but they didnt force the people to become muslim.

Assalam alaykum

 

[Born_Believer]

Hey interesting question. I'm an atheist, I don't think I could become a Muslim, that has never been a desire or possibility in any way. After having been exposed to Christianity so much throughout my life and not simply rejecting it but figuring out what logic and reason has told me about the world and the nature of religions in general, I don't see how it's possible that Islam could provide me with or prove something to me what Christianity couldn't.

I came here to learn more about Islam because I realized after the Boston bombings I had all these questions come up and mostly what I was asking reflected a gross lack of understanding of it. I didn't like that, I wanted to take a fair look at Islam and gain a perspective of Muslims themselves from their experiences, ideas and worries. There's much to discover but there's simply no way that discovery will make me view Islam in a way that I'll want to start living it or practicing it. I have always been an atheist, I will always be and I am absolutely positive of that. It's not stubbornness it's my culmination of thought and pondering of the universe that leads me to that conclusion. People who aren't atheists simply have come to a different conclusion about these things and that's perfectly fine, I respect them, and I hope they can respect me in that regard.

This is a very well written post. I obviously don't agree with your views on being an atheist but I respect them, plus I respect the fact that you came here to learn about Islam after the horrendous attacks in Boston, rather than simply falling blindly into the media invention. Any questions, feel free to ask.

Salam

 

[Born_Believer]

if you non-muslims wanted to ask some questions about islam, that's fine, but once you asked your questions and got them answered, you can leave the forum and not say anything else after that. Lurking in this particular forum and not having the intention of becoming muslim is just pointless.

Mr Khan why would he say that? Some people takes years to find faith, others mere days. Why should someone leave here if they have more questions or don't accept the answer straight away?

I personally prefer a forum with people who don't share the same beliefs as me but are willing to learn. That is beneficial for everyone involved.

 

[Ahmad H]

if you non-muslims wanted to ask some questions about islam, that's fine, but once you asked your questions and got them answered, you can leave the forum and not say anything else after that. Lurking in this particular forum and not having the intention of becoming muslim is just pointless.

You shouldn't ostracize anyone from this forum because they are not turning Muslim. I think it's great that we can have discussions with Christians, Atheists, etc., because this means that we all learn from each other and we become more familiar with each other's beliefs and ideologies. Islam is about achieving world peace. It comes with one step at a time. What we do here on this forum should be a reflection of how things should work out in our lives outside of our rooms and our computers. Everything we do is done to strive for peace. I think you should keep that in mind. This is the duty of every Muslim.

 

[greenhill]

Why is the Quran different to you than the others?

And what pre-conceived ideas are you referring to?

Apologies, I didn't realise you were quoting me here.... only when I read the thread again that I see you quoted me, but my name does not appear.

First is that the Quran is the words of Allah verbatim. So the message is as He had intended it. No change. It is entirely how it is interpreted, and that is done by scholars.

The major pre-conceive ideas with with Christianity is the Trinity. It never was. Or the original sin which Jesus himself never claimed, but has been indoctrinated into the faith, etc.,

What the islamic faith states originates from the Quran (already accepted as Allah's words (by muslims)) and its elaboration and example via the sunnah of the prophet (pbuh). Nothing in the sunnah contradicts the Quran.

Apologies for being a bit dry but my 'original' thoughts when I wrote the bit you quoted is lost somewhere in the recesses of my memory.... mg:

 

[chuckla]

I could never be an Atheist because this universe is too orderly and too beautiful to have come about by accident. Mankind with all his scientific expertise cannot from scratch create one blade of grass. But this earth is much much much more than grass. It is trees, flowers, planets, people, animals, reptiles, insects, etc..etc.. All of these functioning according to an intelligent plan. The riddle is: How did such diversity come from Spirit, which is always the same but ever new and seems not to exist because it cannot be perceived by the 5 senses. How did this Universe which seems so real come from that which seems to not be real at all.

 

[Icy Maiden]

what's holding you back to becoming muslim?

why are you even here if you are not planning to become muslim?

don't you realize that if you have looked up information on islam and if any of the members here told you the truth about islam, you have would to make a BIG decision.


If you still reject islam after hearing the exact truth about it, you could be in trouble in the here after.

I accepted Islam some years ago but have faced a great deal of problems after that. Sometimes I wonder if I made the right choice. So even if people become Muslim today, there is no guarantee that they will always be Muslim later on.

 

[chuckla]

Simple. I don't like religions. They all have double standards and believe that if you don't follow what they say, you'll go to hell. Granted there are many religious people that I like in all faiths but religion itself lowers God to the level of man. I mean, think about it. The Torah, the Gospel, and the Quran give God attributes like jealousy, the ability to hold grudges, anger, the ability to make the wrong decisions...do I need to go further? God is greater than His creation because He doesn't habe the faults of His creation. He is perfect.

That is so true! God cannot hate, He cannot be jealous, He cannot worry. He can experience directly no negative human emotion. He can, however, experience these things indirectly through us. But even though He does, He is not affected at all. To Him it's like watching a movie. Peace, chuck

 

[Hulk]

I accepted Islam some years ago but have faced a great deal of problems after that. Sometimes I wonder if I made the right choice. So even if people become Muslim today, there is no guarantee that they will always be Muslim later on.

I am sorry you feel that way but becoming muslim does not guarantee one a perfect life, rather it is merely the beginning of an even greater journey.
It is important for muslims to seek knowledge pertaining to their religion as it is hand in hand with imaan/conviction/faith.

"Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" and they will not be tried?"
Quran Sura Al-`Ankabut Verse 2

If one's level of knowledge is shallow then his faith can easily be shaken by the slightest trial, but if he has knowledge then he has conviction and no matter how strong the wind blows his faith is firm in its place.

 

[Icy Maiden]

I am sorry you feel that way but becoming muslim does not guarantee one a perfect life, rather it is merely the beginning of an even greater journey.
It is important for muslims to seek knowledge pertaining to their religion as it is hand in hand with imaan/conviction/faith.

"Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" and they will not be tried?"
Quran Sura Al-`Ankabut Verse 2

If one's level of knowledge is shallow then his faith can easily be shaken by the slightest trial, but if he has knowledge then he has conviction and no matter how strong the wind blows his faith is firm in its place.

It is not the religion I have a problem with. It's the Muslims and their behaviour. It's contrary to the teachings of the Prophet sws. Frankly most of the Muslims I've seen, met or known infuriate me because they have a "I'm better than thou" attitude. So if there aren't any Muslims I can respect, which community am I supposed to join?
Sometimes the Christian community seems better to me because they have better manners.

 

[ardianto]

It is not the religion I have a problem with. It's the Muslims and their behaviour. It's contrary to the teachings of the Prophet sws. Frankly most of the Muslims I've seen, met or known infuriate me because they have a "I'm better than thou" attitude. So if there aren't any Muslims I can respect, which community am I supposed to join?

I'm never thinking that I'm a better Muslims compared with other Muslims who I know. But I'm sure that I understand Islam better than those who are thinking "I'm better than thou".

As I've ever written in another thread that Islam taught at least in two different ways. Through understanding and through indoctrination. Alhamdulillah, I learned Islam through understanding, not through indoctrination like those who have "I'm better than thou" attitude.

In learn Islam through understanding, a Muslim will be invited to ask, discuss, and seek answer direct from Qur'an and hadith, and also from other scholars. Understand the difference of opinion is an important part that taught in this learning method.

Different than learn Islam through indoctrination which the students always taught that other scholars opinions are wrong, and the only right scholars are their scholars. It's make them thinking that they must be right while other Muslims must be wrong.

There are communities where teaching Islam through understanding is more common than through indoctrination, there are communities where teaching Islam through indoctrination is more common than through understanding. I hope you can come to my place where people commonly learn Islam through understanding. And you can see attitude of Muslim toward other Muslims in my place that different than your assumption.

Sometimes the Christian community seems better to me because they have better manners.

Some of my relatives from my mother side are Christians. Few of my close friends are Christian. They are good people with good manner. That's why I can close with them. But it doesn't mean other Christians are good like them. And it's not true that Christians have better manner than Muslims. It's depend on personality, person per per person.

 

[MustafaMc]

Not wanting to take this thread off topic, but there ARE people who call themselves Christian atheists (or perhaps atheist Christians) - namely those who don't believe in God and don;t believe that Jesus was anything more than a wise teacher, whose teachings and example is worth following and living by.

Honestly, this is the first time I have ever read or heard of an 'atheist Christian'. I have spoken with a Reform Rabbi and she confirmed the possibility of an atheist Jew, but an atheist Christian blows my mind as an oxymoron. My understanding of what defines a Christian is one who believes in Jesus as the Son of God and simultaneously as one Person of the Godhead.

From what I have seen, non-Muslims come here for various reasons that are known only to them. Some may want to learn about Islam for their own personal edification or even to learn so they better can communicate with Muslims for whatever reason they intend. Some may even come to 'moderate' or 'liberalize' Muslims so they are not strict adherents to the Qur'an and the sunnah. Some may sense some commonality with Muslims and would like to see more interfaith dialog for the sake of mutual respect and understanding. Some may come to evangelize Muslims to become Christians or to show the 'the error of their ways' in beliving in God as the Creator of all that exists.

 

[Icy Maiden]

Simple. I don't like religions. They all have double standards and believe that if you don't follow what they say, you'll go to hell. Granted there are many religious people that I like in all faiths but religion itself lowers God to the level of man. I mean, think about it. The Torah, the Gospel, and the Quran give God attributes like jealousy, the ability to hold grudges, anger, the ability to make the wrong decisions...do I need to go further? God is greater than His creation because He doesn't habe the faults of His creation. He is perfect.

Very nice perspective. I think this is the reason why people of all religions have "I'm better than thou" attitude, not just the Muslims. It's exactly as you said: religion itself lowers God to the level of man.

Each religion, including Islam states "You must do things this way or else you will go to Hell."
This explains why I don't feel comfortable in any community.

 

[Icy Maiden]

I'm never thinking that I'm a better Muslims compared with other Muslims who I know. But I'm sure that I understand Islam better than those who are thinking "I'm better than thou".

What makes you so sure that you understand Islam better than others? Would you be able to accept the idea that you're wrong and that it is not you but me who has greater understanding?

Alhamdulillah, I learned Islam through understanding, not through indoctrination like those who have "I'm better than thou" attitude.

Are you not then placing yourself above those who learned Islam through indoctrination?

I hope you can come to my place where people commonly learn Islam through understanding. And you can see attitude of Muslim toward other Muslims in my place that different than your assumption.

In other words you are saying that people should come to you to learn about Islam because you're the only one who teaches the right religion, unlike others who have got it all wrong...?

Some of my relatives from my mother side are Christians. Few of my close friends are Christian. They are good people with good manner. That's why I can close with them. But it doesn't mean other Christians are good like them. And it's not true that Christians have better manner than Muslims. It's depend on personality, person per per person.

I said that I sometimes feel as though the Christian community is better compared to the Muslim. And this is only because there are some Christians who follow the teachings of Jesus in the right spirit.