Good works and Religion

[Muhammad]

Prior to joining this forum, I have always assumed that morality, or virtuous behaviour, was the same no matter who does it, under whatever religion, or no religion. In history you sometimes see those wonderful moments when people from opposing faiths, or traditions, recognise the same qualities that they admire and strive for in their own religion.

So, although this may not be the Islamic way, in principle I don't agree at all that such a recognition would be to devalue or make irrelevant religion itself.

This is not about the recognition of good deeds by other human beings. It is about their value in the hereafter. If we say that doing good works alone are enough to be admitted to Paradise, doesn't that make religion irrelevant?

 

[Muhammad]

I also want to clarify that this thread is not for judging someone like Nelson Mandela. The things being discussed are in general terms. I agree that such speculation would be of no benefit.

 

[جوري]

The prophet :saws: recognized the good deeds of non- Muslims not just his uncle but amongst other examples the fellow who boycotted querysh during their siege against Muslims!
Good people of great caliber receive their recognition and good fortune but what does that have to go with the hereafter?
You're not granted a passing grade on an exam simply for being affable and studious if you click on a close enough answer!
The purpose of our existence is to worship :Allah: :swt: and nothing else the deeds the intent with whatever vocation or trade etc. Should be done for his pleasure :

ut the messenger hath no other charge than to convey (the message) plainly.
وَعَدَ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا مِنْكُمْ وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ لَيَسْتَخْلِفَنَّهُمْ فِي الْأَرْضِ كَمَا اسْتَخْلَفَ الَّذِينَ مِنْ قَبْلِهِمْ وَلَيُمَكِّنَنَّ لَهُمْ دِينَهُمُ الَّذِي ارْتَضَىٰ لَهُمْ وَلَيُبَدِّلَنَّهُمْ مِنْ بَعْدِ خَوْفِهِمْ أَمْنًا ۚ يَعْبُدُونَنِي لَا يُشْرِكُونَ بِي شَيْئًا ۚ وَمَنْ كَفَرَ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ فَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ {55}
[Pickthal 24:55] Allah hath promised such of you as believe and do good work that He will surely make them to succeed (the present rulers) in the earth even as He caused those who were before them to succeed (others); and that He will surely establish for them their religion which He hath approved for them, and will give them in exchange safety after their fear. They serve Me. They ascribe no thing as partner unto Me. Those who disbelieve henceforth, they are the miscreants.

Glo doesn't seem to get enough if these threads and is never satisfied not sure what the hope is with this action but can only think of two reasons!

This thread is about paying tribute to a man's life not to discuss his journey thereafter or introduce the topics of oh but why or whine about pink elephants when at a loss of understanding content!

Best,

 

[observer]

This argument is negated by the fact that there are Muslims in all parts of the globe. In countries that were predominantly Christian, a huge number of native people are converting to Islam. On this forum itself we have had teenagers wanting to become Muslim and fearing the reaction of their families. God guides whom He wills regardless of their birth place.

And Chrsitian forums have young muslims worried about converting, and atheist forums have people of all religions scared to tell their families that they don't believe anymore. The number of converts to any religion is tiny compared to the number of people born into that religion. If you are born into a religion, that is the bigest indicator of what your religion will be. God guides whom he wills, but is more likely to do so if you're born in the right place.

This is not about the recognition of good deeds by other human beings. It is about their value in the hereafter. If we say that doing good works alone are enough to be admitted to Paradise, doesn't that make religion irrelevant?

So if we flip that round, if being religious is more important than doing good deeds, doesn't that make good deeds irrelevant? Religion obviously gives some people something - be it comfort, purpose or a sense of community, it clearly benefits a lot of people in a lot of ways. But what you're basically saying is that a muslim is inherently "better" than someone else because he believes in the "right" god.

 

[Independent]

This is not about the recognition of good deeds by other human beings. It is about their value in the hereafter. If we say that doing good works alone are enough to be admitted to Paradise, doesn't that make religion irrelevant?

If those are the rules for Islam so be it, that's not for me to say. But for religion in general - absolutely not. One of the main benefits of religion (I won't call it 'purpose' although that could be the case as well) is to give moral standards of behaviour. All of the great religions work well in this respect or they simply could not have survived and prospered.

But although these values are codified by religions, that doesn't mean they can't be broadly acceptable to people of other religions or no religion. For instance, you could argue that the secular state in the UK has simply absorbed a large part of the moral standards of Christianity and continues to apply them, but no longer in a religious context.

At the individual level, someone can in practice follow the highest moral principles in their lives, but not in the religious framework of being a Muslim. In Mandela's case, his life is exceptional. He has been a far better man than any of us on this forum (unless someone remarkable is hiding here under a secret identity!) both in moral courage and actual achievement. Yet it would seem that every Muslim here still rates themselves as superior to Mandela simply because they have a Muslim label on their behaviour, and he hasn't. Astonishingly, Mandela potentially earns eternal punishment. Even the apartheid regime only gave him 27 years.

It seems that words speak louder than actions - simply saying the shahada once is worth more than a lifetime of sacrifice and nobility. Form has become entirely separated from function.

Although I understand your views when I read it line by line, when I see where it ends up I feel something has to be wrong, this cannot be what was intended.

 

[Signor]

Assalamu Alaikum (Peace be on you)

Nelson Mandela was always uncomfortable talking about his own death. But not because he was afraid or in doubt. He was uncomfortable because he understood that people wanted him to offer homilies about death and he had none to give. He was an utterly unsentimental man. I once asked him about his mortality while we were out walking one morning in the Transkei, the remote area of South Africa where he was born. He looked around at the green and tranquil landscape and said something about how he would be joining his “ancestors.” “Men come and men go,” he later said. “I have come and I will go when my time comes.” And he seemed satisfied by that. I never once heard him mention God or heaven or any kind of afterlife. Nelson Mandela believed in justice in this lifetime.

Source

To Muslims Members:

267. Chapter: On the prohibition against abusing the dead without cause and benefit in the Shari'a

That is cautioning against following his innovation, impiety and the like of that.

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1564. 'A'isha reported that the Messenger of Allah , may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Do not curse the dead. They have arrived at what they sent ahead." [al-Bukhari]

Source


For Allah's sake,leave this useless discussion.

Regards

 

[Aisha]

Assalamu Alaikum (Peace be on you)



Source

To Muslims Members:

267. Chapter: On the prohibition against abusing the dead without cause and benefit in the Shari'a

That is cautioning against following his innovation, impiety and the like of that.

​

1564. 'A'isha reported that the Messenger of Allah , may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Do not curse the dead. They have arrived at what they sent ahead." [al-Bukhari]

Source


For Allah's sake,leave this useless discussion.

Regards

I agree. There's no doubting the fact that he was a great man but sitting here debating about where he's going to end up isn't really going to help us build our own Aakhirah is it?

Also, I think the timing of the article isn't the best. Most of the world is in mourning and emotions tend to be high. Let us just recognise the good work he has done and leave it to Allah to decide the rest.

 

[glo]

Greetings glo,

If one continues this line of thinking, what would be the purpose of religion, if all that is required is having good qualities? What is stopping you calling yourself a Muslim if your definition of humility is as broad as this?

Perhaps you have to remember that I think of religions merely as 'labels' we attach to ourselves. I don't believe any of our religions to fully be the truth - only human attempts to grasp God.
I believe that God is greater than any of our human perceptions and interpretations of him ... and that we will only fully understand his greatness when we meet him face-to-face.

So I am not too troubled by following religious traditions and practises 'religiously' - they may be useful guides and help us focus on God, but they are no more than that.
As observer says, I cannot believe in a God who would dish out eternal punishment to somebody who happened to follow the wrong religion (or none at all) - no matter how good a person s/he had been. I believe that God knows us better than that and looks deeper than that.

And for the record, I would probably call myself a muslim with a small 'm', or a muslim Christian - somebody who believes in one God and tries to submit to him and who follows the teachings of Jesus.

Indeed, for the righteous with their Lord are the Gardens of Pleasure. Then will We treat the Muslims like the criminals? What is [the matter] with you? How do you judge? Or do you have a scripture in which you learn That indeed for you is whatever you choose? Or do you have oaths [binding] upon Us, extending until the Day of Resurrection, that indeed for you is whatever you judge? Ask them which of them, for that [claim], is responsible. Or do they have partners? Then let them bring their partners, if they should be truthful. [Al-Qalam: 34-41]

Then is one who was a believer like one who was defiantly disobedient? They are not equal. [32: 18]

Or do those who commit evils think We will make them like those who have believed and done righteous deeds - [make them] equal in their life and their death? Evil is that which they judge. And Allah created the heavens and earth in truth and so that every soul may be recompensed for what it has earned, and they will not be wronged. [45: 21-22]

And We did not create the heaven and the earth and that between them aimlessly. That is the assumption of those who disbelieve, so woe to those who disbelieve from the Fire. Or should we treat those who believe and do righteous deeds like corrupters in the land? Or should We treat those who fear Allah like the wicked? [38: 27-28]
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In the very words you have quoted, it explicitly says that Abu Talib admitted that Muhammad :saws: was the Prophet of Allah. Clearly, his case is different from someone who had never received the message of Islam.

Do you think that somebody like me - who has learned a fair bit about Islam and spent much time with Muslims, but still does not believe in Islam as the true religion - is somebody who is defiantly disobedient?

Or is it possible - as Eric often suggests - that God guides us differently?

Do you think it is wrong of Muslims to believe their religion is the only true guidance?

It's not so much about finding it wrong, but it is not for me.
I would find it constricting and it would prevent me from exploring God. Remember what I wrote earlier - our human understanding of God is limited and we somehow have this urge to put God 'in a small box'. I find that learning about the beliefs and practices of other faiths broadens my own understanding.

Christianity have taught me to look for God in the incarnation of Jesus, Islam has taught me to submit to God in regular prayer, Eastern religions have taught me to look for God within myself and others, early church practices have taught me to seek God in the stillness and to practice obedience and Patience.

All of this has helped me to shape my faith ... and rather than frowning upon it, I imagine God appreciating my efforts.

How does the picture show that a non-Muslim will be granted entry to Paradise?

It doesn't at all. I just thought it might appease those who believe that God only loves those who pray the Islamic way. :shade:

 

[جوري]

I don't believe any of our religions to fully be the truth - only human attempts to grasp God.

Does the whole world have to acquiesce to your understanding of religion or God? I mean what is the point of you repeatedly asking the same Q and being offered the same questions only to pounce on the first thread when a Mother Theresa type figure dies and how outrageous it is for such a good soul to be funneled anywhere other than heaven? Are you hoping to elicit a different response from someone other than herb?

Concern yourself with your own deeds and your own hereafter glo. We're born alone, we die alone and we're resurrected alone if you have any grievances or presume to think for God, then take it out on the day of recompense, not here on the forum!


best,

 

[glo]

Does the whole world have to acquiesce to your understanding of religion or God?

Not at all. I was having a conversation with brother Muhammad there.
To you your religion and to me mine. Amazingly God gives us the freedom to choose - and hopefully to extend that same freedom to each other.
Nobody has to acquiesce to my personal beliefs. I would rather people developed and deepened their own beliefs.

Concern yourself with your own deeds and your own hereafter glo. We're born alone, we die alone and we're resurrected alone if you have any grievances or presume to think for God, then take it out on the day of recompense, not here on the forum!

That's good advice. I agree that we will be accountable for our own deeds and will not be able to use what others told us as a excuse. All the more reason to be clear about where we stand, what we believe and why.

But until that day we journey together and I can grateful for everybody who has helped me shape my own faith journey - including some Muslims and atheists who have challenged and hones my own faith.
And I am grateful for discussions such as this thread, which clearly has gotten people thinking ...

 

[observer]

But until that day we journey together and I can grateful for everybody who has helped me shape my own faith journey - including some Muslims and atheists who have challenged and hones my own faith.
And I am grateful for discussions such as this thread, which clearly has gotten people thinking ...

Hear hear! Like it or not, everyone lives in each others' multi-cultural pockets these days - best we try to understand and tolerate each other and get along (maybe even learn a bit from each other too ).

 

[جوري]

And I am grateful for discussions such as this thread, which clearly has gotten people thinking

that's your all too frequent proclamation - at the end of the day everyone still hangs on to the beliefs they've.. two weeks from now you'll jump on a similar band wagon and still be none the wiser!

best,

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings observer,

And Chrsitian forums have young muslims worried about converting, and atheist forums have people of all religions scared to tell their families that they don't believe anymore. The number of converts to any religion is tiny compared to the number of people born into that religion. If you are born into a religion, that is the bigest indicator of what your religion will be. God guides whom he wills, but is more likely to do so if you're born in the right place.

Your examples of Christian and atheist forums, if true, only emphasise my point, that people may change their belief regardless of where they are born and that at some point they make their own choices. There is no guarantee just because someone was born into a religion that they will remain the same throughout their life. The Qur'an narrates the examples of Prophets on their deathbeds advising their children to remain steadfast upon the true creed of monotheism. Likewise no parent can feel certain of the destiny of their children. The Qur'an appeals to the intellect and reason of the whole of mankind, inviting them to the way of truth. God does not limit His guidance to any culture, place or time.

So if we flip that round, if being religious is more important than doing good deeds, doesn't that make good deeds irrelevant?

This doesn't make sense because being religious naturally involves doing good deeds. The question is whether good deeds done for the sake of God are more worthy of being accepted by God, than those done for the sake of people or other worldly reason.

Religion obviously gives some people something - be it comfort, purpose or a sense of community, it clearly benefits a lot of people in a lot of ways. But what you're basically saying is that a muslim is inherently "better" than someone else because he believes in the "right" god.

Again, you seem to be working on the premise that religion is some kind of luck of the draw, which would then render the conclusion very unfair. That is not in keeping with the perfect Justice and Mercy of God. As I said, He helps us make the right choices. He has given us many signs and means of ascertaining the true guidance. This world is a test and has a purpose, and there are those who will succeed and those who will fail, and none shall be wronged in the slightest.

 

[Muhaba]

Perhaps you have to remember that I think of religions merely as 'labels' we attach to ourselves. I don't believe any of our religions to fully be the truth - only human attempts to grasp God.
I believe that God is greater than any of our human perceptions and interpretations of him ... and that we will only fully understand his greatness when we meet him face-to-face.

So I am not too troubled by following religious traditions and practises 'religiously' - they may be useful guides and help us focus on God, but they are no more than that.
As observer says, I cannot believe in a God who would dish out eternal punishment to somebody who happened to follow the wrong religion (or none at all) - no matter how good a person s/he had been. I believe that God knows us better than that and looks deeper than that.

And for the record, I would probably call myself a muslim with a small 'm', or a muslim Christian - somebody who believes in one God and tries to submit to him and who follows the teachings of Jesus.


Do you think that somebody like me - who has learned a fair bit about Islam and spent much time with Muslims, but still does not believe in Islam as the true religion - is somebody who is defiantly disobedient?

Or is it possible - as Eric often suggests - that God guides us differently?


It's not so much about finding it wrong, but it is not for me.
I would find it constricting and it would prevent me from exploring God. Remember what I wrote earlier - our human understanding of God is limited and we somehow have this urge to put God 'in a small box'. I find that learning about the beliefs and practices of other faiths broadens my own understanding.

Christianity have taught me to look for God in the incarnation of Jesus, Islam has taught me to submit to God in regular prayer, Eastern religions have taught me to look for God within myself and others, early church practices have taught me to seek God in the stillness and to practice obedience and Patience.

All of this has helped me to shape my faith ... and rather than frowning upon it, I imagine God appreciating my efforts.


It doesn't at all. I just thought it might appease those who believe that God only loves those who pray the Islamic way. :shade:

Then what keeps you from accepting Prophet Muhammad as well and become fully Muslim? You don't need to call yourself a Muslim Christian. Fact is that both religions were one but became separate after the changes in Christianity took place. Jesus was a Muslim (one who submit his will to the will of God). All the Prophets came from the same one God and taught the same basic faith. All religions were the same until ppl made changes. (Christians weren't called Christians at the time of Jesus. This name was given to Christians at a later time. You should look up the history of the term "Christian.") Furthermore, you don't have to leave Jesus in order to become Muslim. All Muslims have to believe in Jesus (and all former Prophets) and we greatly revere them all.

Then We sent following their footsteps Our messengers and followed [them] with Jesus, the son of Mary, and gave him the Gospel. And We placed in the hearts of those who followed him compassion and mercy and monasticism, which they innovated; We did not prescribe it for them except [that they did so] seeking the approval of Allah . But they did not observe it with due observance. So We gave the ones who believed among them their reward, but many of them are defiantly disobedient.

O you who have believed, fear Allah and believe in His Messenger; He will [then] give you a double portion of His mercy and make for you a light by which you will walk and forgive you; and Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. (57:27-28)

About this verse (57:28) some commentators say that the address here is directed to the people who believed in the Prophet Jesus. It is being said to them, "Believe in the Holy Prophet Muhammad (upon whom be Allah's peace and blessings) now; for this you will be given a double reward, one reward for believing in the Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) and the other reward for believing in the Prophet Muhammad (upon whom be Allah's peace and blessings).

 

[glo]

Thank you for your kind invitation, sister WRITER.

Then what keeps you from accepting Prophet Muhammad as well and become fully Muslim?

To explain that in detail would probably be considered by some as breaking forum rules by 'promoting a religion other than Islam' - so I would prefer not to.

Let's just say that I am who I am ... and I trust that God in his infinite mercy and love can see past my flaws and love me anyway. :statisfie

 

[Independent]

The Qur'an appeals to the intellect and reason of the whole of mankind, inviting them to the way of truth. God does not limit His guidance to any culture, place or time.

But reason also says that, realistically, the degree of opportunity to be a Muslim is heavily dependent on geography and history. You talk about western converts, but these are the low hanging fruit - people who already understand Abrahamic religion and who have at least some access to information. But that opportunity drops to zero for more distant cultures.

Islam should be in the reach of anyone both now and throughout history - yet the hunter gatherers of the Amazon (who live like we all used to, in countless small bands) still have zero opportunity. There is absolutely no trace of the influence of Islamic ideas outside the places where you might expect to find them for historical reasons. As for these tribes, they have not received any messengers, or if they have there is no trace of their message in any tribe today or at any point in history, so their people still have no opportunity.

This opportunity is not at all equal. It's theoretical. And it's easy to find societies where that opportunity drops all the way to zero. To paraphrase a well known phrase: in many societies, it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a person to convert to Islam.

This doesn't make sense because being religious naturally involves doing good deeds. The question is whether good deeds done for the sake of God are more worthy of being accepted by God, than those done for the sake of people or other worldly reason.

Being religious should involve good deeds, but that doesn't mean every follower actually does them in practice. Yet the least virtuous Muslim still potentially gets rewarded, whereas the very best non Muslim has no chance. The message is that belief matters more than moral behaviour.

And even many of those Muslims who do give to charity etc, do so for the wrong selfish reasons - to buy their own ticket to paradise, to look 'good' in their community etc. Bad motivation for good deeds is a human failing that will occur among the followers of any religion, or no religion. Look around you - Muslims are not immune.

Leaving aside secular morality - in what way is a person who does a good deed for the sake of their God any worse than a Muslim who does a good deed for Allah? They are equally selfless or self interested.

So, what it comes to is, you're saying morality itself is less important than belief. A Buddhist could be every bit as charitable, virtuous etc as a Muslim, but this counts for nothing. He gets the same eternal punishment as a mass murderer. There is only one punishment for any and every crime - and it's the worst possible punishment you can possibly imagine, infinitely exceeding the worst punishment man has ever inflicted on man.

And even a person of Mandela's exceptional qualities, or another like him, is potentially headed for hell simply because they were born into another religion, not a Muslim family.

 

[جوري]

The best reply for these Non-Muslims who never cease to argue should come directly from the Quran:

Sahih International
For every religion We have appointed rites which they perform. So, let the disbelievers not contend with you over the matter but invite them to your Lord. Indeed, you are upon straight guidance.

Sahih International
And if they dispute with you, then say, " Allah is most knowing of what you do.

to top

Sahih International
Allah will judge between you on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which you used to differ."

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Sahih International
Do you not know that Allah knows what is in the heaven and earth? Indeed, that is in a Record. Indeed that, for Allah , is easy.​

22:71 to top

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Sahih International
And they worship besides Allah that for which He has not sent down authority and that of which they have no knowledge. And there will not be for the wrongdoers any helper.​

22:72 to top

Sahih International
And when Our verses are recited to them as clear evidences, you recognize in the faces of those who disbelieve disapproval. They are almost on the verge of assaulting those who recite to them Our verses. Say, "Then shall I inform you of [what is] worse than that? [It is] the Fire which Allah has promised those who disbelieve, and wretched is the destination."​

22:73 to top

Sahih International
O people, an example is presented, so listen to it. Indeed, those you invoke besides Allah will never create [as much as] a fly, even if they gathered together for that purpose. And if the fly should steal away from them a [tiny] thing, they could not recover it from him. Weak are the pursuer and pursued.​

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[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

Jesus gave us the parable of the ‘Good Samaritan’ to describe ‘The greatest commandments. It might seem strange, but the parable of the Good Samaritan almost makes a mockery of religion.

The priest and the Levite in the parable, chose to ignore the human needs of the wounded man. They seemed to worry more about the religious side of becoming unclean, and not being able to perform their religious duties for a few days.

The Samaritan seemed to go out of his way to help the wounded man, and there was no mention that the Samaritan talked about religion. Jesus would know that the religion of the Samaritan, was not the religion Jesus preached, yet the Samaritan stood out as being the good guy, and the priests the bad guys.

Strange that Jesus should use this as a story, to describe the greatest thing we should do. Jesus seems to talk about the misuse of religion.

I am a Catholic, and if I should achieve salvation; it will not be through my effort, rather it will be through the grace, mercy, and forgiveness of God. If God could be this merciful to me, I pray that he will also be this merciful to all others.

In the spirit of praying to a merciful and forgiving God,

Eric

 

[glo]

I'm not sure that Catholics get to heaven, Eric :giggling: - but beautifully said. I agree with every word.

 

[جوري]

Jesus gave us the parable of the ‘Good Samaritan’ to describe ‘The greatest commandments. It might seem strange, but the parable of the Good Samaritan almost makes a mockery of religion.

In fact dear Eric the greatest commandment is to love God per your bible .. and to show love to God is to obey his commandments:

many of the comments here do remind me also of this verse from the Quran:

Al-Jathiya [45:23]

أَفَرَأَيْتَ مَنِ اتَّخَذَ إِلَهَهُ هَوَاهُ وَأَضَلَّهُ اللَّهُ عَلَى عِلْمٍ وَخَتَمَ عَلَى سَمْعِهِ وَقَلْبِهِ وَجَعَلَ عَلَى بَصَرِهِ غِشَاوَةً فَمَن يَهْدِيهِ مِن بَعْدِ اللَّهِ أَفَلَا تَذَكَّرُونَ

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Afaraayta mani ittakhatha ilahahu hawahu waadallahu Allahu AAala AAilmin wakhatama AAala samAAihi waqalbihi wajaAAala AAala basarihi ghishawatan faman yahdeehi min baAAdi Allahi afala tathakkaroona​

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45:23 Then seest thou such a one as takes as his god his own vain desire? Allah has, knowing (him as such), left him astray, and sealed his hearing and his heart (and understanding), and put a cover on his sight. Who, then, will guide him after Allah (has withdrawn Guidance)? Will ye not then receive admonition?

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If it is a matter of anything goes then there's no point at all for God to have sent all those messengers:

Al-Baqara [2:38]

قُلْنَا اهْبِطُواْ مِنْهَا جَمِيعاً فَإِمَّا يَأْتِيَنَّكُم مِّنِّي هُدًى فَمَن تَبِعَ هُدَايَ فَلاَ خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلاَ هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Qulna ihbitoo minha jameeAAan faimma yatiyannakum minnee hudan faman tabiAAa hudaya fala khawfun AAalayhim wala hum yahzanoona​

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2:38 We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

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That is our purpose in life since the expulsion from heaven. To find our way back through God's guidance..
I assure you all the likes and thumbs up will be meaningless on the day of recompense!

peace to you

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