A Question which Atheists could not answer

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جوري;1605116 said:
What are they looking to do with TOE even if it a verifiable fact?

Trying to find out where we come from. Nothing more, nothing less.

The great evolutionists of our time were religious men. Ask most scientists (and atheists) if they want to get rid of religion and the answer is "no". Most don't care what you want to believe, what book you wish to follow, which prophet's teachings you subscribe to. I certainly don't.

What I don't like is the savagery exhibited by some creationists as they try to discredit evolution. It's dishonest, illogical and counter-factual.

There are plenty of points on which evolution can be challenged, as there are with the vast majority of scientific theories. Cries of "ToE has already been discredited!" "It's obviously false!" "It's an atheistic attempt to destroy god!" are just ridiculous and serve only to weaken the religious creationist position.

There are plenty of missing bits in evolution, plenty. No-one has ever tried to say that we can explain everything - I've lost count of the number of times Independent's made that point. It is there to be attacked and proven wrong if you wish to do so. Unfortunately, often the best argument we see is essentially "It seems too complicated so I don't believe it." That's not an argument.
 
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Thanks for the link, but the "Tiktaalik' has a fully developed skeletal system, the real question is how did this arise from a billion years ago. I see design in movement, we need some explanation of how biological needs, also coincidentally happen to also be a good shape for movement.

There was a discussion of this in the link I posted for you previously regarding early bone formation. This link merely exemplifies that the accumulation of evcidence goes on, every new piece of the puzzle fitting the theory as expected (with some surprises along the way).
 
I think it would be easier to evolve animals that could walk further, rather than evolve longer necks.

But you're missing the point Eric. In any population there is variation - so some giraffes would have longer and some shorter necks. If food became an issue, then the animals which already had longer necks were fine - they could eat what they wanted happily. So they survived and thrived, passing on their genetic propensity for a longer neck. And the cycle continued. No one says that longer necks suddenly appeared.
 
Whist I am pleased to say, there does appear to be a calmer approach; from our atheist friends on this forum, I do sense a kind of determination to push TOE.

I think it's worth noting that this thread was not started by an atheist, but with the challenge "A question that atheists can't answer".
 
just out of curiosity,

how about the mountain goat?

article018BF208700000578165_470x702-1.jpg


applying the giraffe model, its something to keep an eye on for sure.

although i get that i have no idea of how long its been a mountain goat.
 
just out of curiosity,

how about the mountain goat?

applying the giraffe model, its something to keep an eye on for sure.

although i get that i have no idea of how long its been a mountain goat.

Not sure how you mean - in it's adaptation?

Anyway, evolution or god or whatever, those goats are extremely, extremely cool. Check out the youtube videos of them - the photo doesn't do them justice!
 
What I don't like is the savagery exhibited by some creationists as they try to discredit evolution. It's dishonest, illogical and counter-
That's a perfect description of what you and your pal are doing here.. Just useless words to describe your feelings and no science whatsoever..
This isn't the first grade where you're meant to describe what you see..

best,
 
جوري;1605148 said:

That's a perfect description of what you and your pal are doing here.. Just useless words to describe your feelings and no science whatsoever..


You just seem to stick your fingers in your ears and chant "Lalalalalala - no science no science" regardless of whatever evidence or arguments are given to you. I wonder what you think every evolutionary biology department in every university in the world is doing if it's not science?
 
You've skipped the entire content of the article that pertains directly to evolution and its hoaxes, and went straight to a single comment in the conclusion?
The article is very long and contains a lot of detail that would take longer to debunk than to write in the first place (as I shall illustrate in a moment with the time it takes me to deal with a single example). I picked on his conclusion as conclusions are important, and also it demonstrated one simple thing - that he doesn't understand his subject. I have never read any scholarly work with such an elementary error that somehow escaped editing and peer review. From this point, you know that Foard cannot be trusted in any detail.

You and Scimi have been going on about frauds and fakes, so let's look at one that Foard quotes and which is also in the illustration you posted before - a favourite of Creationists, Nebraska Man.

Nebraska Man


Here's how Foard describes him:

The twentieth century is full of dethroned "ape-men" who never existed outside of evolutionist imagination, such as Nebraska Man, a pig

Contrary to the impression given here, Nebraska Man was never widely accepted as a proven hominid and rejected altogether after 5 years. The only reason anyone remembers it is because its preserved in Creationist literature.

There's also no reason to think it was a fraud or fake - rather it was an example of wishful thinking for a noble reason - surprisingly, a Christian reason.

The true story of this mistaken discovery is complicated. The fossil tooth was found by Harold Cook (rancher and geologist) in Nebraska and sent to Henry Fairfield Osborn of the American Museum of Natural History for verification. He was delighted to receive it because he was in the middle of a public debate with a man called William Jennings Bryan.

Back in 1922 evolution was under heavy attack from Christian fundamentalists. (If you want to know what inspired Richard Dawkins to take on Creationists, start here.) Bryan was especially aggressive. Osborn was appalled by this because he saw evolution as being completely compatible with religion. In an attempt to bridge the divide he said this:

The moral principle inherent in evolution is that nothing can be gained in this world without an effort; the ethical principle inherent in evolution is that only the best has the right to survive; the spiritual principle in evolution is the evidence of beauty, of order, and of design in the daily myriad of miracles which we owe our existence.

However, Bryan continued his attacks. So when the fossil turned up on Osborn's desk, he was ready to be deceived. On examination, Osborn's first reaction was that it might be an anthropoid ape rather than human. He named it Hesperopithecus haroldcookii (which means 'Harold Cook’s ape of the western world'). But as yet, Osborn was cautious:

…it would be misleading to speak of this Hesperopithecus at present as an anthropoid ape; it is a new and independent type of Primate, and we must seek more material before we can determine its relationships. (American Museum Novitiates)


Osborn passed over the fossil for examination by 3 colleagues who supported the notion that it was ape, an intermediate offshoot between Dryopithecus, the hypothesized ancestor of the living African apes, and Sivapithecus, a fossil ape from Asia close to our own lineage. Other scientists who had read the earlier papers thought the teeth more likely belonged to a monkey, bear, rodent, or carnivore, and one scientist (who is not named) even proposed that Cook’s tooth was truly “An incus bone [inner ear bone] of a gigantic mammal but the ape diagnosis was persisted with.

However, attempts to find more remains at the same site began to tell a different story. The tooth was now correctly re-identified as a fossil from a peccary, an ancestor of the pig. Nebraska Man's brief moment in the limelight was over.

Even the name 'Nebraska Man' didn't come from a scientist. It was invented by a journalist for The Illustrated London News, which also contributed a fanciful picture of what he might have looked like roaming the ancient landscape. Osborn didn't like it, but he couldn't stop it.

Of course, it's this name and this picture which can now be found in countless Creationist accounts.

To summarise:

1. Nebraskan Man is in no way an example of an anti religion agenda or deliberate fraud.
2. Osborn himself was a decent man who was very pro Christian. The mistake he made was sincere.
3. The mistake itself was not as great as suggested. He never called the fossil a man, and even at the peak of his error regarded it as a previously unknown primate.
4. To describe the fossil as simply 'a pig' as Foard does is deceptive, it sounds like farmyard remains. In fact it dates from long before any farmyard ever existed. It is a genuine fossil but that of a peccary, a pig ancestor (which does have some resemblance to human teeth although it should not have been mistaken). It's also not true that Osborn called him an 'ape man'. All of this comes from Foard (or rather, it's repeated by Foard from other Creationist sources.)
5. The scientific reception was cautious and it never achieved acceptance. Within a short timescale for a pre internet period, the fossil was decisively rejected.
6. It played no part in mainstream evolutionary thinking then or now.
7. Even the name and the ever popular illustration had nothing to do with evolution.

Far from occupying a key place in the 'evolutionist imagination' as Foard calls it, the fossil in fact has achieved fame and immortality only in the imagination of Creationists.

More here:
http://scienceblogs.com/laelaps/2009/05/27/nebraska-man-nothing-but-the-t/
 
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If this is true, it would also make it easy to claim that all finds are 'exactly as one would expect' for TOE, thus reducing meaning in challenging creationists to find irregularities. Any time an anomalous result is pointed out, it is very easy to suggest a possible explanation to 'sidestep' the objection.
No, because the different explanations relate to the 'how', not to the overall pattern and concept of evolution.

It seems you are unwilling to accept a possible compatibility between areas of evolution science and creationism. Instead you insist that Creationism must be illogical based on equivocal observations like the pattern of species development.
As I have said, it's perfectly possible that a God created the laws of evolution in the same way as the laws of gravity. To that extent I am not ruling out Creationism, I am helping it to avoid taking an untenable position that will ultimately undermine faith.

I doubt either side will be satisfied with the responses provided.
It's not so bad. Imagine how the Arab-Israeli negotiators must feel!
 
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You just seem to stick your fingers in your ears and chant "Lalalalalala - no science no science" regardless of whatever evidence or arguments are given to you. I wonder what you think every evolutionary biology department in every university in the world is doing if it's not science?

Try to go over your posts this one included and be honest with yourself. If you don't actually understand what science is or how scientific paper or work looks like I'd be glad to provide you with a sample.


best,
 
Where are the 'fossil evidence' for TOE that you have suggested?
I have repeatedly said that all fossils are evidence for TOE in the sense that no fossil yet found contradicts the overall logic and pattern (although of course they revise the detail). If you think one does, tell us.

I am no better at posting links to fossil websites than you. But if it makes you happy, this one is pretty: http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/3d-collection
 
جوري;1605168 said:


Try to go over your posts this one included and be honest with yourself.


Done and done, still not sure why you say it's not science? Is every evolutionary biologist a fraud? Maybe you should highlight this to them - you'd become famous.
 
I want to know why elephants have trunks. And why some animals are carnivores while others are herbivores.
 
I want to know why elephants have trunks. And why some animals are carnivores while others are herbivores.


Because species adapt to suit their necessities. Evolution explains it all.

Or because god made them that way. Which also explains it all.

Take your pick really. (I'm going for the first one :shade: )
 
Done and done, still not sure why you say it's not science? Is every evolutionary biologist a fraud? Maybe you should highlight this to them - you'd become famous.

lol what an argument? I guess all the 'facts' taught in theology and philosophy courses are fraud - surely you've something up your sleeves other than logical fallacies? and by the way people do rebut theories with theories all the time, there was no strong emphasis on poetic physics or 'evolutionary biology' when I did my undergrad and masters in molecular biology!- and still you're free to subscribe to what you like.
Even the science I've studied in grad school has been amended since, propranolol was theoretically detrimental for heart failure patients, now it is one of the drugs of choice, haemophilus influenzae was number 1 cause of meningitis in children now because of vaccines it has fallen to number 9.
That is the thing about science dear, it is ever changing, ever correcting, while you subscribe to what the 'scientists' say from 200 years ago forgoing your brains all together, hey someone else did the work and you're not smart enough to sort through it and question, the world has changed dramatically.
I don't understand if it is a reading and comprehension impediment, where you genuinely can't understand or process what is being asked or frank obstinacy on the account everyone highlighted for you and your pal what they need and what is wrong with what you provide for a reply and repeatedly, and yet somehow you find in your person the bravado to show your face here and repeat yourself from scratch hoping the 27th time this crap will sell?
Even your language you can't elevate to suit the topic, that we all have to descend down to humor this pedantry by proxy if I may add!

best,
 
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Done and done, still not sure why you say it's not science? Is every evolutionary biologist a fraud? Maybe you should highlight this to them - you'd become famous.

thats the thing,

if you look back at science in hindsight.

it has always been a progressive thing.

it has always.. with todays knowledge... been a crude and imprecise instrument.



and yet, without people being and taking part in scientific study, it would not have advanced.

its ideas would not have been refined and improved upon.. its errors not corrected.


...and believe me and history when i say there were many and numerous errors.

genuinely crude and barbaric at times.

with hindsight.

but most of it is overshadowed by the benefits of modern science.. weird cycle right?


so for you to believe that science is really not the be and end of all.. is not hard.. anybody with a bit of time and reading skills can learn what it was really about.

but for you to cover the cracks in science it simply takes a willingness to accept without question.


...similarly to religion.. which you can debate that science is not.


no doubt people will look back and think that todays science was a bit crude and barbaric, but we had nothing better right?

the exception to what i have said is when civilisations collapse into nothingness and things start over again.

then they might wonder at the marvels of yesterdays science.
 
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Because species adapt to suit their necessities. Evolution explains it all.

Or because god made them that way. Which also explains it all.

Take your pick really. (I'm going for the first one :shade: )

What you mean is that you're going to take the quick way out because you can't explain why it happened to some animals and not to others.

Tells me what evolution explains. Why do elephants have trunks? why don't other animals? Why are some animals carnivores, some herbivores? What is evolutionists explanation for it other than the simple "their necessities required it."
 
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Greetings Independent,

No, because the different explanations relate to the 'how', not to the overall pattern and concept of evolution.
There are also different explanations suggested for the Cambrian explosion - something that relates to the pattern and concept of evolution. Once something unexpected is discovered, multiple theories are fired to account for it. Notice the wording of this abstract:


Unfortunately, the pattern of the metazoan tree of life still shows some important gaps in knowledge. It is the aim of this article to review some of the most important issues related to the inference of the metazoan tree, and point towards possible ways of solving certain obscure aspects in the history of animal evolution. A new hypothesis of the metazoan diversification during the Cambrian explosion is proposed by synthesizing ideas from...
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1055790302002063


It seems that the data collected, and as more is found, are far from neatly falling into place. New hypotheses and the synthesis of new ideas are required to go back and make sense of it all.

As I have said, it's perfectly possible that a God created the laws of evolution in the same way as the laws of gravity. To that extent I am not ruling out Creationism, I am helping it to avoid taking an untenable position that will ultimately undermine faith.
In your view, what position would be untenable for Creationists and what are you suggesting?
 
What you mean is that you're going to take the quick way out because you can't explain why it happened to some animals and not to others.

Tells me what evolution explains. Why do elephants have trunks? why don't other animals? Why are some animals carnivores, some herbivores? What is evolutionists explanation for it other than the simple "their necessities required it."


Evolution is simple in essence, those animals better suited to their environments survive and thrive. Those that aren't, die. It's been said over, and over, and over in this thread that evolution does not have all the answers, but it has a lot of evidence to point us in the right direction. At the end of the day, you either trust what scientists are telling us (99% of scientists) or you don't. You clearly don't.

Why do elephants have trunks? Because it conferred an advantage upon their ancestors and they received the trait. Why are some animals carnivores? Likewise. There is no special reason with evolution - things are as they are because they helped animals live and therefore breed.
 
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