The Architect
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George W. Bush's God is probably a beer called Jägermeister. That stuff will mess you up so bad. Rofl
God told me to invade, says Bush
- Thread starter abdul Majid
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abdul Majid
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.. =(
I tend to think God does not. Mullahs tell them to. After all God did not speak to Muhammed - only an Angel traditionally assumed to be Gabriel.
However such policies have reached Indonesia.
From the Sydney Morning Herald
Islamic moral drive spreads fear in Indonesia
Email Print Normal font Large font By Mark Forbes Herald Correspondent and Karuni Rompies in Jakarta
March 11, 2006
LILIS LINDAWATI finished waitressing at 8pm and was waiting for a bus when the men in brown shirts came. Five jumped from the back of a ute and forced her into a nearby van.
The frightened, three-months-pregnant mother of two was about to become another casualty of Indonesia's escalating morality war. Her crime: she was female, alone and wearing make-up. A tube of lipstick sealed her fate.
New bylaws championed by the ambitious mayor of Tangerang, a satellite city on Jakarta's outskirts, aim to drive out gamblers, drunks and prostitutes. They are enforced by a small army of "public order officers" who cruise the streets, able to arrest anyone at whim.
The move has created a de facto curfew for women in Tangerang. If they are caught alone at night they must prove they are not prostitutes.
As well as banning "physical intimacy" in public places, a bylaw states a woman "who behaves suspiciously" on streets or in hotels, theatres, coffee shops - even private houses - will be jailed.
Tangerang is not the only regional administration to introduce bylaws reflecting sharia - Islamic law. And a proposed national anti-pornography law will ban public kissing and any clothing considered alluring. Baring a navel would earn a jail term.
Moderate Muslim organisations are supporting the changes, but intellectuals, feminists and artists are beginning to mobilise against what they believe is a hardline agenda to reshape Indonesia. This week, on International Womens Day, thousands of Indonesian women demonstrated against the morality campaign.
A fortnight ago, Mrs Lindawati, 36, was ignorant of the debate.
"For God's sake, I am not a prostitute. I am a good woman. I have a husband and I have children," she protested.
But the officers ignored pleas to call her family, jailing her overnight. The next morning she was hauled from a two-room cottage to go on trial in the forecourt of the palatial offices of the Mayor, Wahidin Halim, where a large crowd was celebrating the city's anniversary.
"Everybody was watching," said Mrs Lindawati. She told the judge, Barmen Sinurat, she was not a prostitute. He demanded she empty her handbag, which contained face powder and lipstick.
"Then the judge said, 'There is powder and lipstick in your bag. That means you're lying to say that you are a housewife,' " she recounted. "I am hurt, insulted, because people think I am a prostitute. Please don't blame me if I put on make-up. Many housewives today put on make-up, otherwise our husbands will go away for another woman."
Her request to call her husband, a teacher at the local state school, was again rejected.
Striking his gavel three times, Judge Sinurat pronounced: "You are guilty. You are prostitute." Unable to pay a $40 fine, Mrs Lindawati was jailed for three days.
Mr Wahidin, brother of the Indonesian Foreign Minister, Hassan Wirayuda, was unmoved by Mrs Lindawati's plight.
"She could not prove she is not a prostitute," he told the Herald. "It is true when my men arrested her she was not committing adultery, but why does she put on such make-up?"
What's more, said Mr Wahidin, she wore tight clothes and "a good girl would not stand in the street with that kind of dress".
"The point is we can tell someone is a prostitute or not … They stand in the street moving their body, waving their hands, trying to attract people, seducing." Mr Wahidin denies the changes are political. There are rumours he will stand for regional governor and his morality bylaws have won support from powerful, Islamic-orientated parties.
A legal aid activist, Astuti Listyaningrum, said the show trial of Mrs Lindawati and 26 others was an abuse of the legal process. "Of course they looked terrible, looked terrified. Not because they are prostitutes, but because they were nervous," she said.
Despite the support of her neighbours, Mrs Lindawati now refuses to venture out. Other women have begun carrying letters from their employers explaining they must work late.
Email Print Normal font Large font By Mark Forbes Herald Correspondent and Karuni Rompies in Jakarta
March 11, 2006
LILIS LINDAWATI finished waitressing at 8pm and was waiting for a bus when the men in brown shirts came. Five jumped from the back of a ute and forced her into a nearby van.
The frightened, three-months-pregnant mother of two was about to become another casualty of Indonesia's escalating morality war. Her crime: she was female, alone and wearing make-up. A tube of lipstick sealed her fate.
New bylaws championed by the ambitious mayor of Tangerang, a satellite city on Jakarta's outskirts, aim to drive out gamblers, drunks and prostitutes. They are enforced by a small army of "public order officers" who cruise the streets, able to arrest anyone at whim.
The move has created a de facto curfew for women in Tangerang. If they are caught alone at night they must prove they are not prostitutes.
As well as banning "physical intimacy" in public places, a bylaw states a woman "who behaves suspiciously" on streets or in hotels, theatres, coffee shops - even private houses - will be jailed.
Tangerang is not the only regional administration to introduce bylaws reflecting sharia - Islamic law. And a proposed national anti-pornography law will ban public kissing and any clothing considered alluring. Baring a navel would earn a jail term.
Moderate Muslim organisations are supporting the changes, but intellectuals, feminists and artists are beginning to mobilise against what they believe is a hardline agenda to reshape Indonesia. This week, on International Womens Day, thousands of Indonesian women demonstrated against the morality campaign.
A fortnight ago, Mrs Lindawati, 36, was ignorant of the debate.
"For God's sake, I am not a prostitute. I am a good woman. I have a husband and I have children," she protested.
But the officers ignored pleas to call her family, jailing her overnight. The next morning she was hauled from a two-room cottage to go on trial in the forecourt of the palatial offices of the Mayor, Wahidin Halim, where a large crowd was celebrating the city's anniversary.
"Everybody was watching," said Mrs Lindawati. She told the judge, Barmen Sinurat, she was not a prostitute. He demanded she empty her handbag, which contained face powder and lipstick.
"Then the judge said, 'There is powder and lipstick in your bag. That means you're lying to say that you are a housewife,' " she recounted. "I am hurt, insulted, because people think I am a prostitute. Please don't blame me if I put on make-up. Many housewives today put on make-up, otherwise our husbands will go away for another woman."
Her request to call her husband, a teacher at the local state school, was again rejected.
Striking his gavel three times, Judge Sinurat pronounced: "You are guilty. You are prostitute." Unable to pay a $40 fine, Mrs Lindawati was jailed for three days.
Mr Wahidin, brother of the Indonesian Foreign Minister, Hassan Wirayuda, was unmoved by Mrs Lindawati's plight.
"She could not prove she is not a prostitute," he told the Herald. "It is true when my men arrested her she was not committing adultery, but why does she put on such make-up?"
What's more, said Mr Wahidin, she wore tight clothes and "a good girl would not stand in the street with that kind of dress".
"The point is we can tell someone is a prostitute or not … They stand in the street moving their body, waving their hands, trying to attract people, seducing." Mr Wahidin denies the changes are political. There are rumours he will stand for regional governor and his morality bylaws have won support from powerful, Islamic-orientated parties.
A legal aid activist, Astuti Listyaningrum, said the show trial of Mrs Lindawati and 26 others was an abuse of the legal process. "Of course they looked terrible, looked terrified. Not because they are prostitutes, but because they were nervous," she said.
Despite the support of her neighbours, Mrs Lindawati now refuses to venture out. Other women have begun carrying letters from their employers explaining they must work late.
Where?
Because it has been denied on several occasions. And George W Bush does not go around saying that sort of thing.
So what? Surely some form of monotheism is preferable to atheism?
Notice who is doing the talking - a Palestinian minister. Would you say that perhaps he was not a close political ally or friend of George Bush? Would you say that perhaps this non-native English speaker might have a slight prejudice or even political interest here?
You mean Iraq don't you?
How about http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4317498.stm
The White House has dismissed as "absurd" allegations made in a BBC TV series that President Bush claimed God told him to invade Iraq.
"He's never made such comments," White House spokesman Scott McClellan said.
The comments were attributed to Mr Bush by the Palestinian negotiator Nabil Shaath in the upcoming TV series Elusive Peace: Israel and the Arabs.
Mr Shaath said that in a 2003 meeting with Mr Bush, the US president said he was "driven with a mission from God".
Holy war?
"President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan. And I did, and then God would tell me, George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq... And I did.
"'And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East. And by God I'm gonna do it.'"
Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas, who attended the meeting in June 2003 too, also appears on the documentary series to recount how Mr Bush told him: "I have a moral and religious obligation. So I will get you a Palestinian state."
The TV series charts recent attempts to bring peace to the Middle East, from former US President Bill Clinton's peace talks in 1999-2000 to Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip this year.
It seeks to uncover what happened behind closed doors by speaking to presidents and prime ministers, along with their generals and ministers.
"He's never made such comments," White House spokesman Scott McClellan said.
The comments were attributed to Mr Bush by the Palestinian negotiator Nabil Shaath in the upcoming TV series Elusive Peace: Israel and the Arabs.
Mr Shaath said that in a 2003 meeting with Mr Bush, the US president said he was "driven with a mission from God".
Holy war?
"President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan. And I did, and then God would tell me, George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq... And I did.
"'And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East. And by God I'm gonna do it.'"
Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas, who attended the meeting in June 2003 too, also appears on the documentary series to recount how Mr Bush told him: "I have a moral and religious obligation. So I will get you a Palestinian state."
The TV series charts recent attempts to bring peace to the Middle East, from former US President Bill Clinton's peace talks in 1999-2000 to Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip this year.
It seeks to uncover what happened behind closed doors by speaking to presidents and prime ministers, along with their generals and ministers.
I think by "a number of occasions" you mean "never".
Actually that is not what he said but even if it was, so what? You think God is not going to be his judge? That he should not pray before going to war? That he should not think about what God wants before doing such things?
Of course all he said was that he prayed before making the decision. Big deal.
Again from the BBC
This is the transcript of Prime Minister Tony Blair's comments, on ITV1's Parkinson show, about the decision to go to war in Iraq:
Tony Blair: "That decision has to be taken and has to be lived with, and in the end there is a judgement that, well, I think if you have faith about these things then you realise that judgement is made by other people, and also by..."
Michael Parkinson: "Sorry, what do you mean by that?"
Blair: "I mean by other people, by, if you believe in God, it's made by God as well and that judgement in the end has to be, you know, you do your...
"When you're faced with a decision like that, and some of those decisions have been very, very difficult, as I say, most of all because you know there are people's lives, not just, this isn't a matter of a policy here or a thing there but their lives, and in some case, their death.
"The only way you can take a decision like that is to try to do the right thing according to your conscience, and for the rest of it you leave it, as I say, to the judgement that history will make."
Parkinson: "So you would pray to God when you make a decision like that?"
Blair: "Well, you know, I don't want to go into..."
Parkinson: "No, but, I mean, you've said that."
Blair: "Yeah."
Parkinson: "You've said that it would be informed..."
Blair: "Of course. You struggle with your own conscience about it because people's lives are affected, and it's one of these situations that I suppose very few people ever find themselves in, in doing, but in the end you do what you think is the right thing."
Tony Blair: "That decision has to be taken and has to be lived with, and in the end there is a judgement that, well, I think if you have faith about these things then you realise that judgement is made by other people, and also by..."
Michael Parkinson: "Sorry, what do you mean by that?"
Blair: "I mean by other people, by, if you believe in God, it's made by God as well and that judgement in the end has to be, you know, you do your...
"When you're faced with a decision like that, and some of those decisions have been very, very difficult, as I say, most of all because you know there are people's lives, not just, this isn't a matter of a policy here or a thing there but their lives, and in some case, their death.
"The only way you can take a decision like that is to try to do the right thing according to your conscience, and for the rest of it you leave it, as I say, to the judgement that history will make."
Parkinson: "So you would pray to God when you make a decision like that?"
Blair: "Well, you know, I don't want to go into..."
Parkinson: "No, but, I mean, you've said that."
Blair: "Yeah."
Parkinson: "You've said that it would be informed..."
Blair: "Of course. You struggle with your own conscience about it because people's lives are affected, and it's one of these situations that I suppose very few people ever find themselves in, in doing, but in the end you do what you think is the right thing."
Which man is going crazy?
Why is what Bush and Blair said, even what they are said to have said, any crazier than what you just said?
Nicola
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Here we are on a Islamic forum...disucssing Prophets from the Bible and Mohammad from the Koran along with other issuses...most of us here believe in God we believe God sent messengers to man throughout time..for different reasons. mainly to do with our conduct!
With all that we have no problem...in believing all of those people
we will even kill and risk dying for our faith and belief in those things.
Whether Prs Bush did or didn't recieve a message from God is beside the point to me....I think the mocking is really uncalled for and insulting...and we are supposed to be God fearing people!
If it turns out he did recieve some kind of message..the Bible gives us lots of information on how to test the spirits, to see if they are from God or not.
If the message was from God it should be taken seriously and not just dismissed and Bush mocked.
Jeremiah was mocked and laughed at all this life, even thrown in jail...Because God had told him, to tell his people to repent for there sins..If not God would send a Godless nation to invade them and take them into slavery...
And look what happened to Israel then!
With all that we have no problem...in believing all of those people
we will even kill and risk dying for our faith and belief in those things.
Whether Prs Bush did or didn't recieve a message from God is beside the point to me....I think the mocking is really uncalled for and insulting...and we are supposed to be God fearing people!
If it turns out he did recieve some kind of message..the Bible gives us lots of information on how to test the spirits, to see if they are from God or not.
If the message was from God it should be taken seriously and not just dismissed and Bush mocked.
Jeremiah was mocked and laughed at all this life, even thrown in jail...Because God had told him, to tell his people to repent for there sins..If not God would send a Godless nation to invade them and take them into slavery...
And look what happened to Israel then!
Cheb
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Sorry but I disagree. See Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) was our last messenger and no one will come after him. Anyone who states otherwise will be contradicting the Koran and our beliefs and at the same time disrespecting our religion. At the same time, out of all people to claim such a thing, Bush I believe is an evil man who has plenty of characteristics that are similar to Hitler. So the fact that someone like him would say such a thing is a JOKE and therefore we will treat it as a JOKE.
If you want to know why Bush mentions religion every now and then please look into what he stands for. Look into New-Conservatism and you will see what Bush really is. Open up your eyes and dont be fooled by his lies.
If you want to know why Bush mentions religion every now and then please look into what he stands for. Look into New-Conservatism and you will see what Bush really is. Open up your eyes and dont be fooled by his lies.
Nicola
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Well the God of our Bible gives us some the gift of prophecy, healing, wisdom and knowledge etc...so really only Muslims believe this statement of Mohammeds...there is so much evidence out there to support..newer prophecies after Mohammed.
Many Muslims receive visions and when they have immediatly turn to Jesus as their saviour..this is between God and man..and anyone who calls a messenger of God a liar, will have to take that up with God on Judgement day....
It is only one person Mohammed that said there would be no more prophets..yet since Jesus' death there have been many thousands of messages given to mankind for mankinds own good...God tells us in the Bible he will never bring down his wrath to mankind without first giving out warning to man-kind to repent their sins....I myself have recieved a message and recieved visions..and I am not a liar. I don't need to prove anything to man..I know what God gave me..
About Bush being an evil man...I am in no position to judge him...like I don't judge Saddam or OBL..that is up for God to do, Jesus tells us not to judge one another, least we be judged ourselves......
I myself must concentrate on my own behaviour and sin in life..and aim for Gods standards for man-kind...not aim for a person who I think is better than myself...or worse than myself...so I may think I am there fore a better person....
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Maimunah
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its true that we shouldn't judge others. watever they do is between them n allah. allah will judge them on the day of ressurection. but one thing for sure is that there is no prophet or messenger after mohamed pbuh. the only humans that receive revelation n message from god r prophets n messengers.
salaam
Kittygyal
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:thumbs_up that is so tru sis whateva they do is between them n god....
i hope i cd that ryt:rollseyes
take care
Islamicboy
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AS salamalikum
watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XncVTm3YHrk&search=george bush
watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XncVTm3YHrk&search=george bush
Sure. Just as Muslims disrespect Christianity and Judaism when they say that Muhammed was a Prophet, and the Bahais when they say Muhammed was the Last Prophet, and all sorts of pagans when they say there is no God but God.
However in this case you have to understand the distinction between what Christians do and think acceptable (and Christians do talk to God all the time, sometime He even talks back) and what Muslims think (anyone who talks to God is making a claim to be a Prophet).
Really? Such as?
Why? What is wrong with him praying and asking God for advice?
Neo-Conservatism? Not a religion.
Nro is George Bush a neo-Conservative in all probability.
Cheb
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And only Christians believe the statements in the Bible. We can go in circles here but lets stop at that.
Would you show me the evidence of new prophecies?
I dont understand what you are saying? Why would a Muslim who has had visions turn to Jesus and not God? Do you have evidence of this?
We already have someone who has had visions yet he remains a Muslim.
Agreed. But Bush is a liar.
And the last was to our prophet Mohammad (pbuh). It is a matter of belief here.
I do not think you are lying at all. However, I think you misunderstood the message
(You have not spoken in detail about it so I am actually not too sure what to believe).
My intention was not to judge him, my intention was to inform other waht kind of a man he is. People need to know that he is evil. This is necessary if we want to stop the injustice that is caused by him. You would not judge Saddam, but wouldnt you want people to know about what he is doing during the time he was in power?
(Opinion) You should also concentrate on the sins of others, not to judge them, but to guide them or to avoid them and warn about them.
Personally we are all human and we cannot know what God's standards are without an example. Our example is our Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), and that is who I will follow.
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Cheb
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True. In the end it depends on your intentions.
Really? Such as?
When was praying and asking for advice mentioned. The statment was, "God told me to invade".
I never said it was a religion. I dont even believe Bush is a Christian for that matter.
Except I have repeatedly posted White House denials that he ever said any such thing. So he probably didn't. It is his enemies who claim he did.
Nicola
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But we do know Gods standards....Jesus was sinless when he came in human form..he was tempted like the rest of us...but he resisted the only human ever to....We know God wants us as Jesus is..sinless and Holy like God himself.
that is the whole point of Christainity to live in Christ so long as we live in him...It is impossible to sin. When we step out of Christ we begin to sin again. It is a totaly amazing experience..
I feel the best way is to pray for them...and then in Gods mercy he will answer and show them the way to salvation...
But it is only God who can open a mans heart Jesus Christ. Then anything is possible.