Non Muslims and Quran

If the Quran is unchanged how come there are so many different translations floating around and why so many different sects?
Also how do we know that the scholars have got it right?

It is impossible to translate from arabic to english perfectly. For example, one scholar would use one word to describe an arabic word and one scholar another. The Qur'an is in arabic. There is no translation, it is a translation of the meaning. It is recommended that one learn arabic.
As for sects, this came after division in ideas and interpretations.
Allah knows best.
 
Don’t the scholars help Muslims understand what’s written/interpreted in the Quran?
 
But the Qur'an is simple enough for the average joe to take it at face value. But when it comes to making fatwas, you have to be qualified as this is a serious thing.
 
The science of tafseer goes all the way back to the companions. Some of the greatest classical scholars like Abu Hanifah were indirectly taught by Ibn Mas'ud (ra) who was the most skilled companion in tafseer of the Qur'an.
 
But the Qur'an is simple enough for the average joe to take it at face value. But when it comes to making fatwas, you have to be qualified as this is a serious thing.

Actually I have my doubts that it is that simple. Before Christians started to annoy Muslims and Muslims got defensive, scholars used to argue over what words in the Quran meant. I have a list of opinions about a particular word around here somewhere. Islamic scholars wrote long treatises on what the Quran actually said. The two estimates I have heard from Western Scholars is that either about one in five words, or about one in three sentences, is open to serious argument over meaning.

Look at the famous passage on dhimmis - to make them pay in humiliation out of their right hand. Even that passage is disputed because the Arabic does not seem clear.
 
Hey - no fair! You cut part of it.

007.054
YUSUFALI: Your Guardian-Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority): He draweth the night as a veil o'er the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession: He created the sun, the moon, and the stars, (all) governed by laws under His command. Is it not His to create and to govern? Blessed be Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds!
PICKTHAL: Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days, then mounted He the Throne. He covereth the night with the day, which is in haste to follow it, and hath made the sun and the moon and the stars subservient by His command. His verily is all creation and commandment. Blessed be Allah, the Lord of the Worlds!
SHAKIR: Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods of time, and He is firm in power; He throws the veil of night over the day, which it pursues incessantly; and (He created) the sun and the moon and the stars, made subservient by His command; surely His is the creation and the command; blessed is Allah, the Lord of the worlds.​

Compared to,

041.009
YUSUFALI: Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.
PICKTHAL: Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds.
SHAKIR: Say: What! do you indeed disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two periods, and do you set up equals with Him? That is the Lord of the Worlds.




No you read!, isnt it plain obvious?
Allah is saying he created heavans & earth both in 6 days while he says he made the earth only in 2 days
must be so hard to understand​
 
since the start of this thread, iv went through three pages so far, and each time anyone has asked questions regarding koran and other contradictive questions , u have ignored them and not even tried to answer them, do you know about your religion? why did you start the thread if you are incapable to answer questions regarding islam???????:heated:


Bro, read all the posts, all the questions ahve been answered. If you feel one hasn't plz bring it forward. Often non-muslims on this site will ask one question, and in the middle of having it answered will ask another one
 
Actually I have my doubts that it is that simple. Before Christians started to annoy Muslims and Muslims got defensive, scholars used to argue over what words in the Quran meant. I have a list of opinions about a particular word around here somewhere. Islamic scholars wrote long treatises on what the Quran actually said. The two estimates I have heard from Western Scholars is that either about one in five words, or about one in three sentences, is open to serious argument over meaning.

Look at the famous passage on dhimmis - to make them pay in humiliation out of their right hand. Even that passage is disputed because the Arabic does not seem clear.

I think you've misunderstood me. I don't mean the average joe can make tafseer, i just meant they can get the general meaning of the ayah. I don't know where you get your information from though, because this is not what I understand from tafseer. Scholars tend to disagree on what the interpretation of certain ayahs are, for example an ayah talking about hijab. If every fifth word was unknown we would be in serious trouble.:offended:
 
Have you conducted a survey then, of all muslims in the world??

Maybe most Muslims you know are hypocrites, but you can't make a statement about all the Muslims in the world.

And what some anonymous 'scholar' says does not matter. What matters is the verse clearly establishes the criteria for who is included in it. They have to enjoin the good and forbid the evil and have faith in God. If someone doesn't meet that criteria, they are not included.

No brother I havent conducted a survey of all muslims neither any of my statement was directed towards all muslims, all I said was about majority of muslims. Now u can well ask why majority of muslims? Just coz we dont see any islamic state in function, u may give some excuses for that, like attack from west, or corrupted leaders, or some kind of consipiracy. Well, u are free to give excuses, and I m free to buy it or not. I know that every deed has its own justification, Bush has his own justification of attacking Iraq, Saddam had his own justification of his cruality, Sharon had his own for opressing palestinian, and muslims around the world have their own reasons for not following shariyah, or getting it implemented in their own countries.

U may be right that muslims I know are hypocrites, while the rest are not, but owning to reasons above, I strongly feel that religious hypocricy is a common problem of majority of muslims., not all muslims. But unfortunately, the majority always prevails on minority, hence no islamic state, coz very few favour it honestly. Holy Quran, has been reduced to be a book only to recite, parrot, and make noise about it, and to follow it selectively, according to one's own convienience. Like it or not, Truth is always bitter and hard to digest

And what some anonymous 'scholar' says does not matter. What matters is the verse clearly establishes the criteria for who is included in it. They have to enjoin the good and forbid the evil and have faith in God. If someone doesn't meet that criteria, they are not included

Brother I m not talking about some anonymous 'scholer' but almost all scholers. I had already requested u or anyone to himself ask about the translation of the verse in question from any schloler, he will himself tell u that ALLAH is talking to MUSLIMS. As I told u that interpretation or misinterpretation will only start when U raise my question. Why dont u try it urself and tell about the result to us???

BTW, I agree that my question has been answered, now its upto me whether I agree with ur answer or not.

Thanks.
 
justahumane you seem to want to argue even though you have been proven wrong. The verse you stated NEVER says "Muslims", the verse states specific charactaristics of a true Muslims. I have read both the English and Arabic version of the verse and they both mean the same thing. If you refuse to accept that then you are sharing the same qualities as the Muslims that you critisize, ignorance. I wonder why you ask the question if you refuse to accept the answer regardless of its conviction.
Plus, if you do not need media reports then what do you need?
What is it that is giving you this image of Islam if it is not the media?

Brother Cheb, if u think that I m proven wrong than its okay, u may be right or may be wrong too. U may be right that I share the same qualities of muslims I critisize, IGNORANCE, but whats a big deal here? When such a vast majority of ppls who believe in guidence from ALLAH can be ignorant, why cant a kafir?

BTW brother Cheb, may I dare ask U which part of my post suggested to u that I have certain image of islam? which media has given to me?

Thanks.
 
When such a vast majority of ppls who believe in guidence from ALLAH can be ignorant, why cant a kafir?
By saying "vast majority" I think it is safe to assume that 70% is considered a "vast majority"? So basically you are saying that over 1 billion Muslims are ignorant? Is that a fair generalization?

BTW brother Cheb, may I dare ask U which part of my post suggested to u that I have certain image of islam? which media has given to me?

Thanks.
Sure you may ask what you want. My question was a response to this comment.

Brother Ansar here I must add that my views are not based on media report at all. I have already made it clear that I dont need media report to know how muslims behave.

Just another thing I want to mention. All the Suras in the Quran are a result of a certain incident happening during that time. That is why it took such a long time for the Quran to be completed. So basically when a scholar interprets the Quran, he has these incidents to look back at.
Peace.
 
By saying "vast majority" I think it is safe to assume that 70% is considered a "vast majority"? So basically you are saying that over 1 billion Muslims are ignorant? Is that a fair generalization?


Sure you may ask what you want. My question was a response to this comment.



Just another thing I want to mention. All the Suras in the Quran are a result of a certain incident happening during that time. That is why it took such a long time for the Quran to be completed. So basically when a scholar interprets the Quran, he has these incidents to look back at.
Peace.

Salam brother Cheb and thanks for ur post.

By saying "vast majority" I think it is safe to assume that 70% is considered a "vast majority"? So basically you are saying that over 1 billion Muslims are ignorant? Is that a fair generalization?

Brother I m sorry to be blunt, but my claim was a result of following comment from U.

If you refuse to accept that then you are sharing the same qualities as the Muslims that you critisize, ignorance.

So brother it was U who labelled those muslims, whom I ciriticize, as ignorants. And yes I criticize vast majority of muslims for their unislsamic behaviour. To give U example of muslims from Indian subcontinent, there are over 400 million muslims here, living in one secular and two islamic states. So If u honestly see how many muslims go to dargahs (Shrines), and enjoy interest (Those who can afford to earn interest, ie rich muslims) than figures can be disgustingly astonishing for U. Need I tell that Shirk and Interest are sins no I and 2 respectively in Islam?

Secondly brother, I have very clear views about ignorance/hypocricy. If 70% muslims are not ignorant/hypocrites, than I see no reason that stops muslims to to live according to ALLAH's wishes, ie shariyah laws. I know that U may get further angry with me and lable me ignorant again. U must be having some defence for unislamic behaviour of muslms en masse. But sorry, I m not gonna buy it, may be coz as a kafir I m ignorant, destined for hellfire unilke ur muslims bretherns, but still I wont deviate from my stand.

Sure you may ask what you want. My question was a response to this comment.


Quote:
Originally Posted by justahumane
Brother Ansar here I must add that my views are not based on media report at all. I have already made it clear that I dont need media report to know how muslims behave.


Brother may I dare ask U again how u jumped to conclusion that my above statement reflects certain image of Islam? Plz be clear, coz I m a bit confused by ur words.

Just another thing I want to mention. All the Suras in the Quran are a result of a certain incident happening during that time. That is why it took such a long time for the Quran to be completed. So basically when a scholar interprets the Quran, he has these incidents to look back at.

Brother I agree with U.

Thanks.
 
I think you've misunderstood me. I don't mean the average joe can make tafseer, i just meant they can get the general meaning of the ayah. I don't know where you get your information from though, because this is not what I understand from tafseer. Scholars tend to disagree on what the interpretation of certain ayahs are, for example an ayah talking about hijab. If every fifth word was unknown we would be in serious trouble.:offended:

Well I don't want to offend - especially now I have heard about what you think about George Bush!

But take the Surat al-Ihlas which contains the phrase as-samad. What does it mean?

Tabari said

And His word: Allahu as-samad expresses (the diea): The One worshipped, He the samad, nobody except Him can be properly worshipped. The Quran commentators disagree as to the meaning of as-samad.

1. Some of them say: He is the one who is not hollow, who does not eat or drink. This opinion is held by the following people:
1.1 Abd-ar-Rahman b. al-Aswad <Muhammed b. Rabi'ah <Salamah b. Sabur <Atiyah <Ibn <Abbas As-samad is he (that) who is not hollow
1.2 Ibn Bassar >deletions< As-samad is the solid one who has no hollowness.
1.3 Abu Kurayb >deletions< as above
1.4 Al-Harit >deletions< as above
1.5 Ibn Bassar >deletions< As-samad is the one who has no hollowness.
1.6 Abu Kurayb >deletions< as above
>deletions<
1.16 Ibn Abd-al-Ala >deletions<

2. Others say that He is the one from whom nothing comes out. This opinion is held by the following people:
[Two names]
3. Others says that He is the one who did not begat and was not begotten. This opinion is held by the following people
[Three names]
4. Others say He is the lord whose lordship has reached its peak. This opinion is held by the following people
[Four names]
5. Others say, in reality as-samad is the enduring one who does not disappear. This opinion is held by the following people:
[Two names]
6. Says Abu Jafar (al-Tabari): With the Arabs as-samad means the lord to whom recourse is had, and above whom there is nothing. It is used in reference to their noble men.​

Yet this seems a simple case of a simple word. In an important context. Not that long after Muhammed died.
 
Salam brother Cheb and thanks for ur post.



Brother I m sorry to be blunt, but my claim was a result of following comment from U.
my statement: "If you refuse to accept that then you are sharing the same qualities as the Muslims that you critisize, ignorance. "
You replied?: "When such a vast majority of ppls who believe in guidence from ALLAH can be ignorant, why cant a kafir? "
I never said "vast majority" nor did I ever imply that most of us are ignorant. That is something that you said and implied(edit: I know you did not say it at first, I am referring to the second post). My statement was referring to the MINORITY of Muslims that are ignorant. Those are the Muslims that I would think you criticize.



So brother it was U who labelled those muslims, whom I ciriticize, as ignorants. And yes I criticize vast majority of muslims for their unislsamic behaviour. To give U example of muslims from Indian subcontinent, there are over 400 million muslims here, living in one secular and two islamic states. So If u honestly see how many muslims go to dargahs (Shrines), and enjoy interest (Those who can afford to earn interest, ie rich muslims) than figures can be disgustingly astonishing for U. Need I tell that Shirk and Interest are sins no I and 2 respectively in Islam?
400 million? where did you get that information from. So you know for a fact that those "400 million" Muslims earn interest. Still an unfair generalization.

Secondly brother, I have very clear views about ignorance/hypocricy. If 70% muslims are not ignorant/hypocrites, than I see no reason that stops muslims to to live according to ALLAH's wishes, ie shariyah laws. I know that U may get further angry with me and lable me ignorant again. U must be having some defence for unislamic behaviour of muslms en masse. But sorry, I m not gonna buy it, may be coz as a kafir I m ignorant, destined for hellfire unilke ur muslims bretherns, but still I wont deviate from my stand.
The rich Muslims that are actually in power are the one that make the decisions. There are many poor and illiterate Muslims too that basically have no say. The rest are shut down whenever they oppose their leaders. See ignorance is not the word to use. I agree that if all Muslims actually followed Islam the way it was meant to be followed, the circumstances would be much different now. But as long as the greedy stay in power and look out for their own interest with the help of the West, change will be hard and slow. No doubt Muslims need to start to think about a realistic solution to these problems. Muslims are definitely not perfect, not even close, but so long as the weak keep getting weaker, little will change. Very unfortunate.





Brother may I dare ask U again how u jumped to conclusion that my above statement reflects certain image of Islam? Plz be clear, coz I m a bit confused by ur words.

You said:
"Brother Ansar here I must add that my views are not based on media report at all. I have already made it clear that I dont need media report to know how muslims behave."
I asked:
"What is it that is giving you this image of Islam if it is not the media?"
Basically my question was if you do not need media reports, then what are you basing your judgment on?
 
Well I don't want to offend - especially now I have heard about what you think about George Bush!

But take the Surat al-Ihlas which contains the phrase as-samad. What does it mean?

Tabari said

And His word: Allahu as-samad expresses (the diea): The One worshipped, He the samad, nobody except Him can be properly worshipped. The Quran commentators disagree as to the meaning of as-samad.

1. Some of them say: He is the one who is not hollow, who does not eat or drink. This opinion is held by the following people:
1.1 Abd-ar-Rahman b. al-Aswad <Muhammed b. Rabi'ah <Salamah b. Sabur <Atiyah <Ibn <Abbas As-samad is he (that) who is not hollow
1.2 Ibn Bassar >deletions< As-samad is the solid one who has no hollowness.
1.3 Abu Kurayb >deletions< as above
1.4 Al-Harit >deletions< as above
1.5 Ibn Bassar >deletions< As-samad is the one who has no hollowness.
1.6 Abu Kurayb >deletions< as above
>deletions<
1.16 Ibn Abd-al-Ala >deletions<

2. Others say that He is the one from whom nothing comes out. This opinion is held by the following people:
[Two names]
3. Others says that He is the one who did not begat and was not begotten. This opinion is held by the following people
[Three names]
4. Others say He is the lord whose lordship has reached its peak. This opinion is held by the following people
[Four names]
5. Others say, in reality as-samad is the enduring one who does not disappear. This opinion is held by the following people:
[Two names]
6. Says Abu Jafar (al-Tabari): With the Arabs as-samad means the lord to whom recourse is had, and above whom there is nothing. It is used in reference to their noble men.​

Yet this seems a simple case of a simple word. In an important context. Not that long after Muhammed died.
Actually that word could mean all of the above. And all of the above actually make sense. They can all be applied as the meaning without contradicting or having any less of an affect to the verse.
 
my statement: "If you refuse to accept that then you are sharing the same qualities as the Muslims that you critisize, ignorance. "
You replied?: "When such a vast majority of ppls who believe in guidence from ALLAH can be ignorant, why cant a kafir? "
I never said "vast majority" nor did I ever imply that most of us are ignorant. That is something that you said and implied(edit: I know you did not say it at first, I am referring to the second post). My statement was referring to the MINORITY of Muslims that are ignorant. Those are the Muslims that I would think you criticize.




400 million? where did you get that information from. So you know for a fact that those "400 million" Muslims earn interest. Still an unfair generalization.


The rich Muslims that are actually in power are the one that make the decisions. There are many poor and illiterate Muslims too that basically have no say. The rest are shut down whenever they oppose their leaders. See ignorance is not the word to use. I agree that if all Muslims actually followed Islam the way it was meant to be followed, the circumstances would be much different now. But as long as the greedy stay in power and look out for their own interest with the help of the West, change will be hard and slow. No doubt Muslims need to start to think about a realistic solution to these problems. Muslims are definitely not perfect, not even close, but so long as the weak keep getting weaker, little will change. Very unfortunate.







You said:
"Brother Ansar here I must add that my views are not based on media report at all. I have already made it clear that I dont need media report to know how muslims behave."
I asked:
"What is it that is giving you this image of Islam if it is not the media?"
Basically my question was if you do not need media reports, then what are you basing your judgment on?

Salam brother Cheb and thanks for ur post,

my statement: "If you refuse to accept that then you are sharing the same qualities as the Muslims that you critisize, ignorance. "
You replied?: "When such a vast majority of ppls who believe in guidence from ALLAH can be ignorant, why cant a kafir? "
I never said "vast majority" nor did I ever imply that most of us are ignorant. That is something that you said and implied(edit: I know you did not say it at first, I am referring to the second post). My statement was referring to the MINORITY of Muslims that are ignorant. Those are the Muslims that I would think you criticize
.

Brother I know that u never used the word vast majority, but I used this particular quote. I always say that vast majority of muslims are ignorant coz inspite of having the best and true religion, inspite of having commands of ALLAH with them, inspite of having the glorious islamic history to boast, and inspite of having the life of the holy prophet preserved for them, they failed to live according to the wishes of ALLAH and sunnah of the holy prophet. I know the fancy excuse of evil west and evil america who stops them to follow their religion, but I dismiss it bluntly, I may be right or may be wrong, but there is ALLAH to decide about that, coz he is the one all knowing. I m sure that u agree. So brother, U got me wrong if u think that I criticize a minority of muslims for their un islamic behaviour, NO, I criticize majority of muslims for their failure to live ISLAM in their lives. Its as simple as that.

400 million? where did you get that information from. So you know for a fact that those "400 million" Muslims earn interest. Still an unfair generalization.

Brother plz read my post carefully and tell me where I claimed that 400 milllion muslims earn interest? It must had been a unfair generalization had I made any such claim, but now its unfair on ur behalf that U misquote me.

The rich Muslims that are actually in power are the one that make the decisions. There are many poor and illiterate Muslims too that basically have no say. The rest are shut down whenever they oppose their leaders. See ignorance is not the word to use. I agree that if all Muslims actually followed Islam the way it was meant to be followed, the circumstances would be much different now. But as long as the greedy stay in power and look out for their own interest with the help of the West, change will be hard and slow. No doubt Muslims need to start to think about a realistic solution to these problems. Muslims are definitely not perfect, not even close, but so long as the weak keep getting weaker, little will change. Very unfortunate.

Brother I m glad to learn that at least two brothers agree on one issue. but here I must add according to my understanding that ALLAH hasnt ordered muslims to wage jihad only against west and america, I think jihad can be waged against anyone who oppresses. Again ignorance coming in the way of muslims. They feel tht as long muslims oppress them its okay with ALLAH. And jihad can only be done against kafirs.

You said:
"Brother Ansar here I must add that my views are not based on media report at all. I have already made it clear that I dont need media report to know how muslims behave."
I asked:
"What is it that is giving you this image of Islam if it is not the media?"
Basically my question was if you do not need media reports, then what are you basing your judgment on?

Brother I base my opinion (not judgement) on solely unislamic behaviour of muslims, who misrably have proven a failure to tell to the world what islam is all about. Media has no role in this, and I havent seen any media report which reflects islam bashing. And my own religion doesnt allows me to say bad words about any religion or faith. Plz check out my posts.

Thanks.
 
Brother I m not talking about some anonymous 'scholer' but almost all scholers. I had already requested u or anyone to himself ask about the translation of the verse in question from any schloler, he will himself tell u that ALLAH is talking to MUSLIMS.
So how did you interpret that as Munafiqeen?! You say that the verse is referring to munafiqeen and the scholars say it is referring to those Muslims who enjoin the good and forbid the evil.
 

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