Could forum Muslims please explain how Islam is a religion of peace

[Johnathan]

Jihad is internal primarily by way of implication and pondering.

Could you support that suggestion through the Quran, if you were discussing it with a Muslim fundamentalist?

In this world you can literallybonly wrong your own soul..

Maybe a worldly concept of it is to look at the other side.

Proscription medication for depression and all sorts of disorders of the mind is mainstream..

Rationalising something within oneself is apparently more difficult than one would think.

Secondly by way of logic, I have said before that battles are won and lost a long time before any battle

 

[جوري]

While you had wished it did, I demonstrated how my posts were perfectly consistent. Rather than historical and archaeological record for Mecca before the 4th century AD (which was not produced), lets focus on the very physical matter of immovable geographical fact.

Do you agree that Abraham's home was in Hebron (where Muslims control his tomb today), and would you agree that Mecca is about 880 miles from Hebron?

So long as you believe your own delusions

Abraham's ancestry is from Yemen to modern day it's still the only purely Semitic population in existence not the Ashkenazis who've converted circa 7th c. From Yemen there were always two migrations on the two known routes one to the North the other to the south not many favoured the austere route and preferred to settle in sham which included Iraq this is where he was born in UR Iraq and upon God's command moved to najd where he founded the well and that's how others migrated and settled there any Jews there no relation to the modern day ones as I also previously demonstrated were strict monotheists and his direct off spring!

 

[M.I.A.]

The next line where you split my post is taken from the Quran.

Although its context and that of the lines preceding and following it you will have to find for yourself.

...its probably loosely paraphrased at best.

But I guess it moves those that are open to it.

 

[ardianto]

That goes exactly to the subject of this thread and what I was asking. Where is this "right interpretation of Islam" to be found?
For example where does the Quran indicate that Jihad is an "internal struggle" as some Muslims suggest?

I've learned Islam since I was kid, and jihad was one lesson that I learned. What is jihad according to my teachers?. Fighting. It could be fight the enemy that want to destroy Islam, it could be fight my own desire, including fight my own desire to do injustice toward the others.

So it's not wrong if there are Muslims who interpret jihad as internal struggle. Internal struggle against laziness is jihad. Internal struggle against desire to commit sin is jihad.

Johnathan, my suggestion if you want to learn about other religions is throw away prejudice. I learn about other religions too, and I learn with clean heart. So I have respect to other religions.

 

[Scimitar]

id like to chime in.

hi jonathan.

blah blah blah. islam fastest growing religion in world. blah blah blah. muslim marriages most stable from any faith group. blah blah blah. Western imperial powers attack muslim nations killing innocents by the millions. blah blah blah. muslims fight back and you come here to rant. blah blah blah. jonathan... grow a brain mate.

Scimi

 

[جوري]

Let me bring it from the end dear Jonathan as I know you're on this sleepy forum for a job to do.
the west has built its empires using other people's blood. The British crown used to boast how it won wars not having spilled a single British soldier's blood and that's because their army was filled with subjugated mercenaries whom they used and tossed later should they've survived.
As you know history is always written in blood and the best your boys can do now a days is cluster bomb and drone from above while using enough propaganda to avoid a ground warfare but foment the divide amongst Muslims - obviously your best bet is a Sunni Sunni war given the cowardice of the shite army which the US helped establish putting their lackey and former lingerie seller Al-Maliki over Sunni majority country whilst raping and pillaging everything in sight- after all the hoopla and mess they made Mosul fell to those alleged extremists in a matter of days I reckon if you want to change ideology and I think you can indeed you've been much successful you'd best do it in people who've an actual vested interest in that land!
peace loving people aren't gonna travel all the way from Indonesia or China or wherever else to lose their heads for nothing when they can simply express their condemnation in front of the UN there's got to be something a little less visceral you catch my drift?

i just bring you the bottom line because you appear to be as clueless in your pursuits as the Muslims here!

All the best!

 

[M.I.A.]

I live in Britain and there was a documentary not too long ago about soldiers in Iraq.

At one point they ambushed some unsuspecting Taliban.. Probably.

Air support came in soon after and a blue on blue incident of friendly fire occurred.

...a lot of casualties.


War is never that easy.

Although some things are easier if one is asleep.

Although most people don't see it that way.

 

[Johnathan]

So long as you believe your own delusions

Abraham's ancestry is from Yemen to modern day it's still the only purely Semitic population in existence not the Ashkenazis who've converted circa 7th c. From Yemen there were always two migrations on the two known routes one to the North the other to the south not many favoured the austere route and preferred to settle in sham which included Iraq this is where he was born in UR Iraq .......

At least we agree on the UR part as Abraham's birthplace. Which is also located by archaeological evidence.
Now look at where UR is located in relation to Yemen. Even farther from Mecca than Abraham's eventual home in Hebron (where Muslims control his tomb).
Now do a web search of Abraham's journey.
UR is on the eastern side of what is referred to as the "Fertile Crescent". Abraham's journey as detailed in scripture as confirmed by the archaeological evidence, is once again perfectly reasonable since it was in an area where there was pasture, game, settlements, and necessities for human survival - like water. Abraham traveled the same area that the 12 tribes of Ishmael eventually inhabited (some of which were known for their flocks).

Gen 25:18 And they dwelt from Havilah unto Shur, that [is] before Egypt, as thou goest toward Assyria: [and] he died in the presence of all his brethren.

Havilah is near UR. "as though goest toward Assyria" meaning the range was bent in a northerly direction, otherwise it would have been south of the fertile crescent and in what we know as the Syrian desert today, where there would have been no pasture for flocks, let alone water.

..... and upon God's command moved to najd where he founded the well .......

By contrast that claim comes from Islamic "tradition" that was put to the pen in the 7th to 10th centuries AD, without reference to any actual historical record that preceded the 5th century AD.

...... and that's how others migrated and settled there any Jews there no relation to the modern day ones as I also previously demonstrated were strict monotheists and his direct off spring!

 

[Johnathan]

Define what constitutes being "a religion of peace", and your question can be answered in a relevant way.

Sorry for the delay as I thought this would be answered in successive conversation. Perhaps a peaceful religion might in part be described by one that respects the God-given rights of all people to religious freedom, liberty and self-determination.

 

[Johnathan]

I've learned Islam since I was kid, and jihad was one lesson that I learned. What is jihad according to my teachers?. Fighting. It could be fight the enemy that want to destroy Islam, it could be fight my own desire, including fight my own desire to do injustice toward the others.

So it's not wrong if there are Muslims who interpret jihad as internal struggle.

I'm sorry if I offered the impression I thought that suggestion on an "internal struggle" was wrong. Muslims have presented it to me as if it were an internal struggle instead of physical fighting.
I think that those fighting in The Islamic State would agree that it is an internal struggle, along with imperialistic aggression and subjugation of non-Muslims to The Islamic State.

Internal struggle against laziness is jihad. Internal struggle against desire to commit sin is jihad.

Johnathan, my suggestion if you want to learn about other religions is throw away prejudice. I learn about other religions too, and I learn with clean heart. So I have respect to other religions.

 

[Scimitar]

You've just shot yourself in the foot then havent you?

no compulsion in religion. you either do or you do not.

problem im finding with your logic is that you are holding minority extremist groups to be representative of islam... that is really stupid of you Jonathan. sorry but its true buddy. you see, using your logic I can easily claim that christianity is a violent religion justified by crusades... or how the USA as a Christian nation is violent and extremely terrible on non Christians ... even today... I can cite george bush jr claiming god told him to crusade against moozlums... does it help me to make a point? no... because I prefer to understand a religion by what is written in its scriptures - in context... and unlike you I would never try to understans a faith based on those whp follow it...

Scimi

 

[جوري]

At least we agree on the UR part as Abraham's birthplace. Which is also located by archaeological evidence.
Now look at where UR is located in relation to ....: [and AD.

I am not sure why you're having a difficult time following what's written when I've broken it down to very easy digestible bits?
If you want your perspective (although I've used more often than not your own bible) then go on a forum with like minded individuals - I don't understand what you're doing here?
you've not been consistent!
you've not followed through when onus is on you to prove your claims in a historically and biblically sound manner
and obviously you've no interest in what anyone else provides I doubt that you even read given your bizarre non sequitur replies and allegations which follow from no premise save your own indoctrinated psyche!

 

[Johnathan]

You've just shot yourself in the foot then havent you?

no compulsion in religion.

Doesn't that verse date back to Muhammad's early, pre-Hijra, Mecca days?

you either do or you do not.

Aren't the fundamentalists simply respecting Muhammad's doctrine of substitution, where surahs revealed later replace earlier surahs? In another thread جوري advised that Asad is a preferred translation to Yusuf Ali so I will risk quoting it:

Surah 2:106 Any message which, We annul or consign to oblivion We replace with a better or a similar one. Dost thou not know that God has the power to will anything?

How else could Muhammad's earlier more peaceful Mecca revelations, be reconciled with Muhammad's later post-Hijra surahs that call for smiting unbelievers at the neck and Hadith that suggest being ordered to fight against the people until they testify that no God has the right to be worshiped except Allah and that Muhammad is his messenger?

problem im finding with your logic is that you are holding minority extremist groups to be representative of islam... that is really stupid of you Jonathan.

What do those you refer to as "extremists" believe they are commanded by the Quran and Sunnah to do, that Muhammad's followers during his lifetime and for a hundred years in his wake, didn't understand they were commanded to do?

sorry but its true buddy. you see, using your logic I can easily claim that christianity is a violent religion justified by crusades... or how the USA as a Christian nation is violent and extremely terrible on non Christians ... even today... I can cite george bush jr claiming god told him to crusade against moozlums... does it help me to make a point? no...

Exactly. Christians are commanded to love our neighbors as ourselves and even to love our enemies. So it should be no surprise that the specifically UNChristian behavior of the Roman Church was responsible for the murder of millions of Christians and Jews as well as others.

But how do you explain away Surah 9.29, when that's exactly what Muhammad and his followers did during his day, and went on to do during the 100 years after Muhammad?

because I prefer to understand a religion by what is written in its scriptures - in context... and unlike you I would never try to understans a faith based on those whp follow it...

Scimi

That's why my questions regard the fundamentals of Islam, as revealed through the Quran and Sunnah, rather than empty claims without basis in religious texts.
If you desired to accuse the Gospel or the behavior of Jesus Christ, for inciting violence in unregenerate people that proclaimed themselves to be Christians, you would need to point out where the Gospel and Jesus example call for violence.

 

[M.I.A.]

Doesn't that verse date back to Muhammad's early, pre-Hijra, Mecca days?



Aren't the fundamentalists simply respecting Muhammad's doctrine of substitution, where surahs revealed later replace earlier surahs? In another thread جوري advised that Asad is a preferred translation to Yusuf Ali so I will risk quoting it:

Surah 2:106 Any message which, We annul or consign to oblivion We replace with a better or a similar one. Dost thou not know that God has the power to will anything?

How else could Muhammad's earlier more peaceful Mecca revelations, be reconciled with Muhammad's later post-Hijra surahs that call for smiting unbelievers at the neck and Hadith that suggest being ordered to fight against the people until they testify that no God has the right to be worshiped except Allah and that Muhammad is his messenger?



What do those you refer to as "extremists" believe they are commanded by the Quran and Sunnah to do, that Muhammad's followers during his lifetime and for a hundred years in his wake, didn't understand they were commanded to do?



Exactly. Christians are commanded to love our neighbors as ourselves and even to love our enemies. So it should be no surprise that the specifically UNChristian behavior of the Roman Church was responsible for the murder of millions of Christians and Jews as well as others.

But how do you explain away Surah 9.29, when that's exactly what Muhammad and his followers did during his day, and went on to do during the 100 years after Muhammad?



That's why my questions regard the fundamentals of Islam, as revealed through the Quran and Sunnah, rather than empty claims without basis in religious texts.
If you desired to accuse the Gospel or the behavior of Jesus Christ, for inciting violence in unregenerate people that proclaimed themselves to be Christians, you would need to point out where the Gospel and Jesus example call for violence.

...I would say that context is everything.

If you look at any monotheistic religion it has progressed or evolved over time... Just as time and society progresses.

Ten commandments elaborated on and so forth.

So its hardly specific to Islam. What is specific and quiet unique is the method and transcription of revelation.

...would a politician or preacher or imam ever back track if he knew there was a transcription kept?

Even harder to do so.

Lastly you speak of the love Christians hold for others including enemies.

...maybe a bit harder to find in the Quran.

But there is a verse that maybe speaks of doing for the love of Allah swt and its about feeding the captives.

But without context that is open to interpretation.. Im no expert on history so I don't know what those conditions were and to what end.

Isis is probably at the extreme end I imagine but I'm not in a position to have any accurate say.

If I could ask a question for the Muslims here..

Why is the punishment of chopping hand and foot on alternate sides a prescribed punishment when it mirrors the punishment pharoe used..

Both cases are in the Quran.

 

[Johnathan]

I am not sure why you're having a difficult time following what's written.....

Because your 7th-10th century AD account is a 1200 kilometer geographical impossibility, across harsh, barren, undeveloped Arabian desert wasteland away from, the perfectly geographical reasonable account within the Fertile Crescent we are given through the historical record of scripture.

 

[Johnathan]

...I would say that context is everything.

If you look at any monotheistic religion it has progressed or evolved over time... Just as time and society progresses.

I agree and would add, evolved because mankind progressed.

Ten commandments elaborated on and so forth.

So its hardly specific to Islam. What is specific and quiet unique is the method and transcription of revelation.

Why unique considering the discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls that predate the Christian era. We also have 5300 partial or complete copies of the Gospel that date before 300 AD.

...would a politician or preacher or imam ever back track if he knew there was a transcription kept?

By Muhammad's day the Gospel had been translated into many languages, had been copied thousands of times, and had been read all over the known world for centuries. Muhammad told the people of the Gospel to go by what is revealed therein, yet modern Muslims claim the Gospel is corrupted.

Even harder to do so.

Lastly you speak of the love Christians hold for others ......

To love our neighbors as ourselves is our second most important commandment. Second only to our commandment to love God.

.... including enemies.

...maybe a bit harder to find in the Quran.

But there is a verse that maybe speaks of doing for the love of Allah swt and its about feeding the captives.

Wouldn't that be a simple matter of self-interest? Of what use would Islam's captives be, to press into service or sell off into slavery, if one didn't feed them?

But without context that is open to interpretation.. Im no expert on history so I don't know what those conditions were and to what end.

Isis is probably at the extreme end I imagine but I'm not in a position to have any accurate say.

If I could ask a question for the Muslims here..

Why is the punishment of chopping hand and foot on alternate sides a prescribed punishment when it mirrors the punishment pharoe used..

Both cases are in the Quran.

 

[جوري]

Because your 7th-10th century AD account is a 1200 kilometer geographical impossibility, across harsh, barren, undeveloped Arabian desert wasteland away from, the perfectly geographical reasonable account within the Fertile Crescent we are given through the historical record of scripture.

Under whose testimony is it a geographical impossibility? You believe Moses split the sea and Noah built a ship to house all animals and survive a flood which wiped out humanity as it was known but find it an impossibility for a chosen messenger of God to cross the desert or dig a well? ;D
you're a hoot, not to mention under educated it is almost an insult to engage you!

all the best,

 

[M.I.A.]

I agree and would add, evolved because mankind progressed.



Why unique considering the discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls that predate the Christian era. We also have 5300 partial or complete copies of the Gospel that date before 300 AD.



By Muhammad's day the Gospel had been translated into many languages, had been copied thousands of times, and had been read all over the known world for centuries. Muhammad told the people of the Gospel to go by what is revealed therein, yet modern Muslims claim the Gospel is corrupted.



To love our neighbors as ourselves is our second most important commandment. Second only to our commandment to love God.



Wouldn't that be a simple matter of self-interest? Of what use would Islam's captives be, to press into service or sell off into slavery, if one didn't feed them?

When you have been on the board long enough, ya kinda get tired of repeating it

...sure it evolves we wernt rocket scientists to begin with..
Although I'm sure the world has seen better people.

Its not a contradiction of terms.

It is unique because every revelation is a story in itself.. It has its own miraculous nature.

The Quran is not a legacy, its a book of god.

If you can grasp that then its easier to not disrespect it.. Or to appreciate it a little more.

It can't really be compared to those other examples you mentioned.. They may have the age but its the nature of revelation and transcription that I talked about.

Does god not live in translations? Or those that didn't know the language.

The leeway given to monotheism seems great in my eyes.

The Quran mentions sabiens and there discription is a broad one..

Depends how broadly you define god. but that's how I approach it..

From thousands of years away.

Not sure about self interest..

Have you read all the posts about an open heart?

If all converts were conscripts then maybe submission comes before belief.

But hearts and minds can be won I suppose.


You talk about Muslims saying that the Jews and Christians became corrupt.


And yet you started the thread.. Title says everything.

Religions can be hijacked.

Islam faces the same problems as any other that has passed before it.

...ain't it an obvious test? Get your head around it and self righteousness goes out the window.

Or is heaven only for the Jews? Christians? Or Muslims?

But saying and doing are two different things aren't they?

 

[Futuwwa]

Sorry for the delay as I thought this would be answered in successive conversation. Perhaps a peaceful religion might in part be described by one that respects the God-given rights of all people to religious freedom, liberty and self-determination.

Perhaps? So you're asking whether Islam is a religion of peace, without even having made up your mind about what the whole concept means in the first place? That's why that whole talking point is so stupid, the whole concept is never defined yet everyone (Muslims included) acts as if it were obvious what it means.

 

[Zafran]

Jonathan is there religious freedom, liberty and self determination in the bible?

Islam is probably the only religion that has "No compulsion in religion" and Surat Kaffarun - Both show freedom of religion, Liberty and self determination. It doesn't matter if they are Meccan or median - the whole Quran is to be followed. End of.

I Echo جوري - How in Gods earth can you call 1200 miles an impossibility when you have no problem in believing in the splitting of the sea, the resurrection of Christ, the miracles of Christ etc etc?? Sounds stupid to me.

Your main question Got answered on the first page.