How does Allah forgive sins?

[TruthFollower]

Are all men sinners deserving of eternal punishment in Allah's view? If so, how does he atone for all man's sins against him? If he has not taken man's sins upon himself then aren't all men still guilty of sin whether they believe in Allah or not?

The Christian God provides a solution for sin through Jesus Christ, His son, which is just one of many reasons why I believe Jesus took my sins upon Himself, so that I can have eternal life. Allah does not provide a logical way to forgive my sins, so why should I believe in him?

The Christian God is described as eternally good, meaning it is good of God to create man with free will to either listen to Him and follow Him(good/life) or not(evil/death). Listening and following God is good and will result in eternal life, but not listening to God is evil and will result in death. Adam and Eve did not listen to God and therefore all men must die for evil sin, but since God is eternally good, He sent His only begotten Son, Jesus to willingly die for all mankind and give eternal life to those that accept Christ as their savior. This is how God has taken the sins of all mankind onto Himself so that anyone who believes in Jesus can have eternal life with Him.

What solution for sin does Allah provide? Are we all still guilty of sin in Allah's view, meaning we will all be eternally punished for our sins whether we believe in Allah or not?

I hope for honest answers to my questions.

Thanks!

 

[Insaanah]

Greetings Truthfollower and welcome to the forum

Allah does not provide a logical way to forgive my sins

Is God begetting a son and having the son (who is also God) killed in a bloody, painful, slow, torturous death to atone for your sins logical?

Adam and Eve did not listen to God and therefore all men must die for evil sin, but since God is eternally good

Which God is good? God who did not forgive Adam (peace be upon him) for eating from the tree, and made not only Adam but all subsequent generations bear a punishment from God, and made them fell out of grace with God, their relationship with God was severed, they are born into a state of sin, and death entered the world.

Or a God who forgave Adam (peace be upon him), and guided him, and has sent guidance for us all, and can forgive us all, freely, when we repent sincerely and ask sincerely, resolving not to repeat past mistakes, and does not expect perfection from us, but simply for us to worship Him alone without any associates, persons or parts to His Exclusive Divinity, and to not ascribe divinity to anybody or anything else, and to do our very best and try our very hardest with all our heart, body and soul, to love and obey Him and the messengers He sent. His Mercy opening the doors to salvation and paradise.

With Allah forgiving Adam (peace be upon him) and honouring him and guiding him, as per Islam, none of the above is needed. In Islam, there is no concept of original sin, nor of God expecting perfection which cannot be achieved, nor of a broken relationship with God that requires reconciling, nor of ****ation requiring a saviour. No innocent person is made to suffer or die for other's sins.

In Islam, as Adam and Eve (peace be upon them) asked for forgiveness and were forgiven, so we too ask for Allah's forgiveness for our sins, as He loves for us to turn to Him in repentance, and loves forgiving. This forgiveness comes freely, just by Allah's will, when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent. Forgiveness does not require any type of sacrifice by God, or any purchase price. Both Adam and Eve repented and were forgiven by their Loving, Merciful Lord; and indeed Adam was then chosen to be the first person to receive guidance from Allah, was honoured by Allah, and is counted among all the other Prophets of Islam.

While guidance and the right way has been shown to us, we, as humans, have the freedom to choose, to err, and to repent sincerely, and should we do so, we will find Allah Kind & Forgiving. For all and any in the posterity of Adam, the door of returning to the right path (Islam) is always open, prior to death.

We are required to struggle, and to make effort, and to show our commitment on our part, by believing and doing good deeds, and obeying God, and the teachings he sent His messenger with. Ultimately, salvation is through Allah's mercy.

It is actually denigrating to God's Power that He should not be able to forgive or remove sins without begetting a son and then sacrificing the son. It ascribes imperfection to God. This is not forgiveness, but atonement. One thing pays the price for another. Perfection is being able to forgive, freely, abundantly, at will. That is perfection. Islam recognises God's power to forgive with just His Will. Some of the other religions seem to claim that forgiveness requires a purchase price and if we can't pay it, somebody else has to pay it on our behalf. In Islam, forgiveness comes without a purchase price or sacrifice. We do not/cannot: buy, sacrifice for, earn or steal it. It comes freely when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent, accepting God's will.

None of us can say, "We are saved". This is what the Day of Judgement is for. We strive with faith and deeds and obedience to God, do our best, and trust in His Promise, and His Justice, and hoping for His Mercy.

For Christians, this may be hard. They believe that by accepting Jesus (peace be upon him) as their saviour they have an assurance of salvation, and view the Islamic position on salvation as being one of uncertainty. As a rough (not exact) analogy, the Christian position, is like one sitting an exam, but somebody has said they'll take all your bad marks for you, and if you let them do that, you'll pass. In the world, this would be viewed as cheating and as unjust. Injustice cannot be ascribed to God. The Islamic position is that of one sitting an exam, doing their best, and then awaiting their results, based on what they've done, and of course hoping for the mercy of God.

We strive, and hope for God's Mercy and trust in Him, for none is more trustworthy than He, but for Christians, it is as though they must have a guarantee from God. We need no such guarantee, and do not feel in any way compromised by not having one, which is a key point where, as demonstrated, they try to catch Muslims. None of us would have a guarantee of passing an exam until we got our results, and this is no different. What greater thing is there than Gods Mercy? We try our best and hope for His Mercy and trust in His Promise, no guarantees needed, as He is not a human who will let us down, or be unjust, on the contrary we will not be wronged by even the spot on a date stone.

Hope that helps a bit, but let us know if it doesn't and please do ask for further clarification.

Peace.

 

[InToTheRain]

We don't believe Men is born with Sin but rather born in a pure state. This is why when someone embraces Islam we say that person has reverted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NdfJSS2B2I

And the solution for Sin is repentance. Allah Most High loves repentance

"Verily, Allah loves those who repent and those who purify themselves." [Al-Qur'an 2:222]

"Say: O My slaves who have transgressed against themselves (because of sins), do not despair from the mercy of Allah. Verily, Allah forgives all sins. Verily, He is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful." [Al-Qur'an 39:53]

God only accounts you for what you do with what you know.

 

[TruthFollower]

Is God begetting a son and having the son (who is also God) killed in a bloody, painful, slow, torturous death to atone for your sins logical?

Yes, God having created man in His image, created man with free will, just like God has free will to do as He pleases. However, God is all knowing, all logically powerful and omnipresent, we are not. When He created perfect beings with free will, some freely chose to not listen to Him, causing sin/evil to enter His creation. In order to forgive His creation of it's sins and destroy evil, He sent His only begotten Son Jesus who lived a perfect life and willingly went to the cross and died for all man's sins. Jesus also being God did this by the power of God, not of man. In going to the cross and willingly laying down his life for all, God was able to destroy evil and sin and bring His creation back to Himself in perfect goodness. This is all God's perfect doing, man's only contribution is sin and evil.

Jesus is the new Adam, a perfect sinless Adam who lived and died for all people by the power of God's love, mercy, forgiveness and righteous judgment.

Which God is good? God who did not forgive Adam (peace be upon him) for eating from the tree, and made not only Adam but all subsequent generations bear a punishment from God, and made them fell out of grace with God, their relationship with God was severed, they are born into a state of sin, and death entered the world.

Or a God who forgave Adam (peace be upon him), and guided him, and has sent guidance for us all, and can forgive us all, freely, when we repent sincerely and ask sincerely, resolving not to repeat past mistakes, and does not expect perfection from us, but simply for us to worship Him alone without any associates, persons or parts to His Exclusive Divinity, and to not ascribe divinity to anybody or anything else, and to do our very best and try our very hardest with all our heart, body and soul, to love and obey Him and the messengers He sent. His Mercy opening the doors to salvation and paradise.

With Allah forgiving Adam (peace be upon him) and honouring him and guiding him, as per Islam, none of the above is needed. In Islam, there is no concept of original sin, nor of God expecting perfection which cannot be achieved, nor of a broken relationship with God that requires reconciling, nor of ****ation requiring a saviour. No innocent person is made to suffer or die for other's sins.

In Islam, as Adam and Eve (peace be upon them) asked for forgiveness and were forgiven, so we too ask for Allah's forgiveness for our sins, as He loves for us to turn to Him in repentance, and loves forgiving. This forgiveness comes freely, just by Allah's will, when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent. Forgiveness does not require any type of sacrifice by God, or any purchase price. Both Adam and Eve repented and were forgiven by their Loving, Merciful Lord; and indeed Adam was then chosen to be the first person to receive guidance from Allah, was honoured by Allah, and is counted among all the other Prophets of Islam.

While guidance and the right way has been shown to us, we, as humans, have the freedom to choose, to err, and to repent sincerely, and should we do so, we will find Allah Kind & Forgiving. For all and any in the posterity of Adam, the door of returning to the right path (Islam) is always open, prior to death.

We are required to struggle, and to make effort, and to show our commitment on our part, by believing and doing good deeds, and obeying God, and the teachings he sent His messenger with. Ultimately, salvation is through Allah's mercy.

It is actually denigrating to God's Power that He should not be able to forgive or remove sins without begetting a son and then sacrificing the son. It ascribes imperfection to God. This is not forgiveness, but atonement. One thing pays the price for another. Perfection is being able to forgive, freely, abundantly, at will. That is perfection. Islam recognises God's power to forgive with just His Will. Some of the other religions seem to claim that forgiveness requires a purchase price and if we can't pay it, somebody else has to pay it on our behalf. In Islam, forgiveness comes without a purchase price or sacrifice. We do not/cannot: buy, sacrifice for, earn or steal it. It comes freely when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent, accepting God's will.

None of us can say, "We are saved". This is what the Day of Judgement is for. We strive with faith and deeds and obedience to God, do our best, and trust in His Promise, and His Justice, and hoping for His Mercy.

For Christians, this may be hard. They believe that by accepting Jesus (peace be upon him) as their saviour they have an assurance of salvation, and view the Islamic position on salvation as being one of uncertainty. As a rough (not exact) analogy, the Christian position, is like one sitting an exam, but somebody has said they'll take all your bad marks for you, and if you let them do that, you'll pass. In the world, this would be viewed as cheating and as unjust. Injustice cannot be ascribed to God. The Islamic position is that of one sitting an exam, doing their best, and then awaiting their results, based on what they've done, and of course hoping for the mercy of God.

We strive, and hope for God's Mercy and trust in Him, for none is more trustworthy than He, but for Christians, it is as though they must have a guarantee from God. We need no such guarantee, and do not feel in any way compromised by not having one, which is a key point where, as demonstrated, they try to catch Muslims. None of us would have a guarantee of passing an exam until we got our results, and this is no different. What greater thing is there than Gods Mercy? We try our best and hope for His Mercy and trust in His Promise, no guarantees needed, as He is not a human who will let us down, or be unjust, on the contrary we will not be wronged by even the spot on a date stone.

Hope that helps a bit, but let us know if it doesn't and please do ask for further clarification.

Peace.

Thank you for this, but does Allah have a way to destroy sin and evil forever? He can grant forgiveness forever, but man will continue to sin against him, unless he has a way to destroy sin and evil and restore his creation to perfection. It seems under Allah, man will just forever continue to sin and ask for forgiveness, there is never a real solution that destroys sin and evil forever. It seems a perfect God would be able to destroy sin forever so that we never have to ask for forgiveness again because we are made perfect by God. Christianity believes God has made us perfect through Jesus Christ and when we die as Jesus did we will be resurrected with perfect immortal bodies as Jesus was.

Thanks for your insight

 

[Futuwwa]

Allah is the omnipotent sovereign of the universe. If he decrees that your sins are forgiven, they are. End of story.

 

[M.I.A.]

Allah does not provide a logical way to forgive my sins, so why should I believe in him?

seriously?

how old are you? ...i have to ask because recently i feel i may have been venting at children and i hope that never happens again.


allah swt is above all they associate with him, including sin.

....if you wrong yourself all you hurt is yourself...

AND also the people around you.


you become a burden. you may not see it and they may not notice it.... for a time.

that is forgiveness.

allah swt does not have to bear your burden.


chuck a piece of wood at the sky! it comes back down.


so yeah when people say this..

The Christian God provides a solution for sin through Jesus Christ, His son, which is just one of many reasons why I believe Jesus took my sins upon Himself, so that I can have eternal life

seriously if you could go back in time and say that too his face... and not feel ashamed...

which i sincerely hope did not happen the first time round.


...and by quranic accounts did not.

The Christian God is described as eternally good, meaning it is good of God to create man with free will to either listen to Him and follow Him(good/life) or not(evil/death)

all mankind dies at least once.

...maybe there is more too it than that... yep you carry on...

Adam and Eve did not listen to God and therefore all men must die for evil sin,

ok, yep all man must die at least once..

He sent His only begotten Son, Jesus to willingly die for all mankind and give eternal life to those that accept Christ as their savior.

ok.

This is how God has taken the sins of all mankind onto Himself so that anyone who believes in Jesus can have eternal life with Him.

..but, all men must die at least once.



actually maybe at the second coming things will be different, but science will be well miffed if he does it for free.

What solution for sin does Allah provide?

....

.....abstinence?


or maybe just keep on doing what your doing and forget about tomorrow like you paid for it yesterday? because your neighbours will love you for it.


...most people are not punished while they are doling out the punishment.


wait what?????

my logics amaze me...


i jest like the fool i am.. my circular argument pulls the wool over no ones eyes.




i should have just wrote,


the religion of islam promotes a moral and ridged code of conduct, it does not allow for many sins and excesses..and offers forgiveness for all but one of them.

there are many ways that allah swt can forgive although i can only speculate.


...some say even illness is an expiation of sin although what you would make of that i do not know. the mercy of allah swt is innumerable.



i would say everything but punishment is forgiveness.


...yes i probably am that annoying.


but yes, maybe there is hiding of sins at the least.. if not forgiveness.. for a while anyway.



seriously, you want me to answer the question "how does god forgive sins" ? ?


the answer he kills of people you care about is never acceptable.

 

[TruthFollower]

Thank you for your response. Do I understand correctly that Allah has created a universe in which sim will always exist and he'll always have to forgive us forever? Allah exists in the presents of sin forever?

I'd imagine a perfect God would create a perfect universe with free willed beings where sin is possible, but ultimately this God would be able to destroy sin completely so as to restore His creation to sinless perfection devoid of all evil. Completely perfect creation where there is no sin or evil.

Under Allah this perfect creation seems impossible because Allah has to forgive sins forever and man will continue to sin forever. This seems like an imperfect scenario that a truly perfect God could easily overcome. How does Allah overcome the problem of having to continually forgive sin forever?

Thanks

 

[Futuwwa]

Allah doesn't continuously do so. He does so once at final judgment, and that's it. Or doesn't, and sends you to Hell.

You're operating on the Christian assumption of sinfulness as a problematic metaphysical condition that one must be freed from. We do not ascribe to such metaphysics in the first place.

 

[TruthFollower]

Allah doesn't continuously do so. He does so once at final judgment, and that's it. Or doesn't, and sends you to Hell.

Is final judgement when you die? Or at the end of time? Either way, you're never actually forgiven until after death or at the end of time? If this is the case, why does repentance please Allah if he doesn't offer forgiveness until death or end of time? In other words, I could repent to Allah all I want and never feel forgiven because He doesn't' offer forgiveness until I die or at the end of time.

You're operating on the Christian assumption of sinfulness as a problematic metaphysical condition that one must be freed from. We do not ascribe to such metaphysics in the first place.

So sin is not a problem to Allah? Why does he need to forgive sin if sin is not a problem?

 

[M.I.A.]

At this point I don't even know why you are asking? Do we live on a different planet to the one Christians live on?

Or in different socio/economic climates? Or in places where conversation and relationships differ? ..to the ones you are having?

Don't know if I'm trying to convince you or myself.

Well.. To answer your question, God was here yesterday and he'll be here tomorrow..

I may not.

If he ain't seen it a million times already I'd be surprised.

..does the nature of sin change?

It's a test but I have no idea how the marking scheme works..

Although I'm sat here most days trying to make coin.

..and I can't even define success.

I would say God has never lived in sin.. Only ever visited on rare occasions..

And even then, the Muslim in me would make the distinction between calling them prophets pbut rather than the Christian interpretation.

God has always been above sin.

...as per your first post, sin has been around since the garden of Eden at least.

 

[Insaanah]

God is all knowing, all logically powerful and omnipresent, we are not.

We believe God is above the heavens, but has knowledge of everything. Allah the Exalted has complete knowledge of all thoughts that cross the mind of man, be they good or evil. He is not physically present everywhere, nor does He need to be.

When He created perfect beings with free will, some freely chose to not listen to Him, causing sin/evil to enter His creation. In order to forgive His creation of it's sins and destroy evil, He sent His only begotten Son Jesus who lived a perfect life and willingly went to the cross and died for all man's sins. Jesus also being God did this by the power of God, not of man. In going to the cross and willingly laying down his life for all, God was able to destroy evil and sin and bring His creation back to Himself in perfect goodness. This is all God's perfect doing, man's only contribution is sin and evil.

In Islam, as I said God does not expect or demand perfection from us, but simply for us to worship Him alone without any associates, persons or parts to His Exclusive Divinity, and to not ascribe divinity to anybody or anything else, and to do our very best and try our very hardest with all our heart, body and soul, to love and obey Him and the final messenger He sent. His Mercy opening the doors to salvation and paradise.

Jesus is the new Adam, a perfect sinless Adam who lived and died for all people by the power of God's love, mercy, forgiveness and righteous judgment.

To kill an innocent person in a slow, bloody, painful death for sins he didn't commit, is not love, mercy or forgiveness. It is the ultimate in cruelty and injustice, ascribed falsely to God.

Thank you for this, but does Allah have a way to destroy sin and evil forever?

Humans can only sin as long as this world lasts, up to judgement day. After that, there is no more sin. It is like asking God to intervene so that there should be no evil in the world, and only good things happen. But as you said, humans have free will. So, up to our deaths and upto the day of judgement, we are free to choose our course of action.

He can grant forgiveness forever, but man will continue to sin against him, unless he has a way to destroy sin and evil and restore his creation to perfection.

As I said before, perfection has never been demanded of us. You seem to view God forgiving as a problem, like He might get tired of Forgiving.

It seems a perfect God would be able to destroy sin forever so that we never have to ask for forgiveness again because we are made perfect by God.

A perfect God, forgives, freely abundantly, at will. That is perfection. Not begetting a son, then having him killed. That ascribes injustice and imperfection to God. He is the Infinitely Rich, and His gifts to us, are matchless and priceless. He is the font of freely flowing, abundant, continuous forgiveness, far above human imperfections. That actually shows His infinite generosity, without any match or comparison for it. His attribute of being The Forgiving is always there for us. He loves us asking for Him to forgive us.

Christianity believes God has made us perfect through Jesus Christ and when we die as Jesus did we will be resurrected with perfect immortal bodies as Jesus was.

In Islam, we do not believe Jesus (peace be upon him) died, nor was crucified or killed. He was taken from this earth alive, and will return to earth near the end of time.

Also it is worth us pointing out, that the biggest sin one can commit, is to associate others in the Exclusive Divinity that belongs only and solely and uniquely to God, Glorified and Exalted be He. Whether you associate an angel, a messenger such as Jesus (peace be on him), the moon, a tree, or anything else in the divinity that belongs to God, that is a great sin.

Jesus (peace be on him) certainly didn't associate himself in Gods divinity. The message didn't suddenly change when it came to Jesus (peace on him), nor did he rebel against God and claim divinity for himself instead of or alongside God. He told people to worship Allah, "My Lord and your Lord".

Jesus (peace be on him) himself will say on the day of judgement regarding this, to God:

....."Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.
I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness." (Qur'an 5: part 116-117)

God also says:

It is not for a human [prophet] that Allah should give him the Scripture and authority and prophethood and then he would say to the people, "Be worshippers of me rather than/apart from/alongside Allah," but [instead, he would say], "Be pious scholars of the Lord because of what you have taught of the Scripture and because of what you have studied."
Nor could he order you to take the angels and prophets as lords.... (Qur'an 3:79-80, part)

Peace.

 

[TruthFollower]

To kill an innocent person in a slow, bloody, painful death for sins he didn't commit, is not love, mercy or forgiveness. It is the ultimate in cruelty and injustice, ascribed falsely to God.

If God chooses to become a man and die in this way in order to save humanity, is it not the greatest possible love?

Humans can only sin as long as this world lasts, up to judgement day. After that, there is no more sin. It is like asking God to intervene so that there should be no evil in the world, and only good things happen. But as you said, humans have free will. So, up to our deaths and upto the day of judgement, we are free to choose our course of action.

I agree, but man will always be slaves to sin, unless God intervenes. If God does not intervene in any way then we have no hope to save ourselves from sin.

As I said before, perfection has never been demanded of us. You seem to view God forgiving as a problem, like He might get tired of Forgiving.

God can only create perfection, which is why the first sin by created beings caused evil which lead to man's separation from God. Only God can restore mankind back to Himself, but a price needs to be paid to accomplish the restoration or else forgiving sin is pointless and costs God nothing.

A perfect God, forgives, freely abundantly, at will. That is perfection. Not begetting a son, then having him killed. That ascribes injustice and imperfection to God. He is the Infinitely Rich, and His gifts to us, are matchless and priceless. He is the font of freely flowing, abundant, continuous forgiveness, far above human imperfections. That actually shows His infinite generosity, without any match or comparison for it. His attribute of being The Forgiving is always there for us. He loves us asking for Him to forgive us.

In Islam, we do not believe Jesus (peace be upon him) died, nor was crucified or killed. He was taken from this earth alive, and will return to earth near the end of time.

Correct, the divinity of Jesus never died, but the man did and was resurrected.

Jesus (peace be on him) certainly didn't associate himself in Gods divinity. The message didn't suddenly change when it came to Jesus (peace on him), nor did he rebel against God and claim divinity for himself instead of or alongside God. He told people to worship Allah, "My Lord and your Lord".

Jesus said in John 8:58 "Before Abraham was, I am."

He also said:

"I am the light of the world" (8:12).
"I am He who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of me" (8:18).
"You don't know me or my Father" (8:19).
"You are from below, I am from above" (8:23).
"Unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins" (8:24).
"The things which I heard from Him [God the Father], these I speak to the world" (8:26).
"I speak these things as the Father taught me" (8:28).
"I always do the things that are pleasing to Him" (8:29).
"I speak the things which I have seen with My Father . . . " (8:38).
" . . . you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God, this Abraham did not do" (8:40).
" . . . I proceeded forth and have come from God . . . " (8:42).
"Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death" (8:51).
"It is my Father who glorifies Me . . . " (8:54).
"Before Abraham was, I am" (8:58).

To me this makes it clear that Jesus was sent to this earth by God to bear witness to God's plan of redemption. The Jews rejected Jesus and killed him and God knew they would do this, but God also knew He could raise Jesus back to life and destroy death and sin in the process. In doing this God was and is the greatest by willingly becoming the very least. God humbled Himself and became the very least and became a man(Jesus) and let mankind kill Him, so that in His divinity He could destroy death and sin. Again, the only contribution man has made is evil and sin, God took it upon Himself to solve the problem of evil and sin by destroying it through the humility of Jesus Christ.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God."

John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth"

 

[TruthFollower]

At this point I don't even know why you are asking? Do we live on a different planet to the one Christians live on?

Or in different socio/economic climates? Or in places where conversation and relationships differ? ..to the ones you are having?

Don't know if I'm trying to convince you or myself.

Well.. To answer your question, God was here yesterday and he'll be here tomorrow..

I may not.

If he ain't seen it a million times already I'd be surprised.

..does the nature of sin change?

It's a test but I have no idea how the marking scheme works..

Although I'm sat here most days trying to make coin.

..and I can't even define success.

I would say God has never lived in sin.. Only ever visited on rare occasions..

And even then, the Muslim in me would make the distinction between calling them prophets pbut rather than the Christian interpretation.

God has always been above sin.

...as per your first post, sin has been around since the garden of Eden at least.

We all live on the same planet for sure . I'm more concerned with getting to the truth of God and accepting that truth and glorifying God for His mercy and grace. Everything is made for Him and by Him, I'm here to glorify Him.

Colossians 1:16
"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"

 

[InToTheRain]

If God chooses to become a man and die in this way in order to save humanity, is it not the greatest possible love?

I understand the love for someone who you believe has sacrificed their life for you. This is infact the nature of all Prophets and Massengers of God. They are chosen because of their innocence, deep love for God and His creation. They are often ridiculed and tormented for reminding others regarding why they were created:

When We sent to them two but they denied them, so We strengthened them with a third, and they said, "Indeed, we are messengers to you." They said, "You are not but human beings like us, and the Most Merciful has not revealed a thing. You are only telling lies."
They said, "Our Lord knows that we are messengers to you, And we are not responsible except for clear notification."
They said, "Indeed, we consider you a bad omen. If you do not desist, we will surely stone you, and there will surely touch you, from us, a painful punishment." (36:14-18)

"How regretful for the servants. There did not come to them any messenger except that they used to ridicule him." (36:30)

But you shouldn't confuse the noble Prophets and Massangers of God (Peace be upon them all) for God Himself.

God is only capable of doing Godly things. He does not become something that ceases to make Him a God. He does not do things that Ceases to make Him a God; such as becoming Human or dying. You can't say something is a square and a circle at the same time.

We only encompass with our knowledge that which he has allowed us. That which has limits is not capable of understanding that which has none. God is beyond being compared to His creation; He is categorically different and unique. We depend on Him and He is free of any dependance. He is All Aware and All Knowing; not even an atoms movement escapes His Knowledge. Nor does He need to become human to understand us for He understands us and our condition more than we ever could.

 

[M.I.A.]

We all live on the same planet for sure . I'm more concerned with getting to the truth of God and accepting that truth and glorifying God for His mercy and grace. Everything is made for Him and by Him, I'm here to glorify Him.

Colossians 1:16
"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"

Ok, seems like you are going off on a tangent.

But your previous post mentions Ibrahim AS a few times, so take his example as a description of the all encompassing mercy of Allah swt..

I am without knowledge so I do not know how closely the Islamic story coincides with the Christian version.

If you would like to read a Quranic account that you may find.. Least offending. Then Ali/ale imran is not a bad one.. In mentioning both Jesus AS and Ibrahim AS as well as others peace and blessings be upon them.

 

[greenhill]

Hi [MENTION=38256]TruthFollower[/MENTION], debating on many fronts I see.

Just want to ask, you keep mentioning about destroying sin. Please elaborate. How does anything destroy sin?

eace:

 

[M.I.A.]

Or reconcile the destruction of sin..

With the sacrifice of Jesus AS (allegedly) ...for the sins of mankind.

With baptism.. With regards to original sin.

Although I really am clutching at straws.

 

[TruthFollower]

Hi TruthFollower , debating on many fronts I see.

Just want to ask, you keep mentioning about destroying sin. Please elaborate. How does anything destroy sin?

eace:

The penalty for sin is death. God has destroyed death by what Jesus did on the cross, as I have explained. God became a perfect man and willingly sacrificed Himself(not His divinity) because it was the Father's will that Jesus do this in order to destroy death through Jesus' resurrection(only God can resurrect the dead). This is God's will that all might come to know Him through belief in Jesus Christ.

 

[keiv]

Among the 99 names of Allah, Al-Ghaffar ("The Forgiving") is one of them. That alone should give answer to Muslims and non Muslims who question Allah's forgiveness.

The whole concept of God becoming part of his creation and then letting his creation kill him so his creation will have "eternal life" just seems very... oh what's the word... oh yea, illogical

 

[greenhill]

Thank you.

Still, I don't get it. Why do we still have to die if death is destroyed? Death is still around, as it has been, uninterrupted, today and until Doomsday.

As is sin. That is still around today. Neither destroyed but still at large.

So what is it you are saying?

eace: