Mecca Problems

[thinkreal93]

Again, I am asking you for any single world map before the Muslims first drew it. Can you link me to one?

You mention Ptolemy's map and then say no more. Do you know how that map was actually created and what it features? It's loosely based on some of Ptolemy's writings at the time and the use of longitude and latitude but misses out large chunks of the world which he and others who were involved in it's illustration, did not know about. Did you know that almost all of the southern half of Africa is missing?

So, I guess by your logic, southern Africa only came into existence in the 7th century? :facepalm:

Seriously man, if you want to troll, you might try harder.

Why do we need a single world map to know a certain detail of the Arabian peninsula ?? The maps I'm referring to are those of Arabia and areas around it only, drawn by people who travelled the region. And that's sufficient to know where an important trade & religious centre is located.

If you had to search for a certain particular port city in Europe, why would you need to have a map of China and India too.

Whatever happened to common sense these days ...

 

[Search]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

(Peace be upon you)

I don't have anything valuable to contribute on this specific topic, but I have been following this thread with interest: So, I just wanted to ask you as to how your interest developed in this topic? And my second question is what would the answer look like that would satisfy you and why?

Thank you in advance for your response.

Why do we need a single world map to know a certain detail of the Arabian peninsula ?? The maps I'm referring to are those of Arabia and areas around it only, drawn by people who travelled the region. And that's sufficient to know where an important trade & religious centre is located.

If you had to search for a certain particular port city in Europe, why would you need to have a map of China and India too.

Whatever happened to common sense these days ...

:wa: (And peace be upon you)

 

[Zafran]

Why do we need a single world map to know a certain detail of the Arabian peninsula ?? The maps I'm referring to are those of Arabia and areas around it only, drawn by people who travelled the region. And that's sufficient to know where an important trade & religious centre is located.

If you had to search for a certain particular port city in Europe, why would you need to have a map of China and India too.

Whatever happened to common sense these days ...

There is no accurate maps by the Romans or the Persians of the Arabian peninsula. They also didnt have a high opinion of the Arabs. What map pre Ptolemy are you referring to here?

Lastly Mecca was not some huge city like Rome or Ctesiphon - It was a smaller trading city that the Quraysh had hold over. With plural/polytheistic religions. It relied on trade and different polytheistic religion worshiping there.

 

[thinkreal93]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

(Peace be upon you)

I don't have anything valuable to contribute on this specific topic, but I have been following this thread with interest: So, I just wanted to ask you as to how your interest developed in this topic? And my second question is what would the answer look like that would satisfy you and why?

Thank you in advance for your response.



:wa: (And peace be upon you)

Wa 'alaikum salam.

Well I just found it while internet surfing (I don't exactly remember what I was looking up) and when I read more of it, it made sense to me. I'm still not entirely sure about it - I need to dig deeper.

As for your 2nd question, I'm not looking for satisfactory answer. I just wanted people to know and think about this.

 

[Born_Believer]

Why do we need a single world map to know a certain detail of the Arabian peninsula ?? The maps I'm referring to are those of Arabia and areas around it only, drawn by people who travelled the region. And that's sufficient to know where an important trade & religious centre is located.

If you had to search for a certain particular port city in Europe, why would you need to have a map of China and India too.

Whatever happened to common sense these days ...

Wait, have you backed off the Ptolemy thing or what? Because his map doesn't include a massive chunk of Africa, so I assume it didn't exist before the 7th century either?

Common sense eh?

 

[Born_Believer]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

(Peace be upon you)

I don't have anything valuable to contribute on this specific topic, but I have been following this thread with interest: So, I just wanted to ask you as to how your interest developed in this topic? And my second question is what would the answer look like that would satisfy you and why?

Thank you in advance for your response.



:wa: (And peace be upon you)

No answer will satisfy him with his motives.

Someone on here already mentioned a number of people from even before the rise of Islam in Makkah who had mentioned the city in their writings and he failed to respond to that post.

I reckon a mod should just close this down.

 

[anatolian]

As for your 2nd question, I'm not looking for satisfactory answer...

;D
"Trolling is a method of fishing where one or more fishing lines, baited with lures or bait fish, are drawn through the water. This may be behind a moving boat, or by slowly winding the line in when fishing from a static position, or even sweeping the line from side-to-side, e.g. when fishing from a jetty. Trolling is used to catch pelagic fish such as salmon, mackerel and kingfish." Wikipedia

 

[thinkreal93]

No answer will satisfy him with his motives.

Someone on here already mentioned a number of people from even before the rise of Islam in Makkah who had mentioned the city in their writings and he failed to respond to that post.

I reckon a mod should just close this down.

Oh you mean the guy who mentioned Herodotus, Pliny, Josephus ??? If you looked on what they had to say, they didn't document any Mecca in Arabia.

You should check the next time you want to back your case.. Thanks

 

[thinkreal93]

Wait, have you backed off the Ptolemy thing or what? Because his map doesn't include a massive chunk of Africa, so I assume it didn't exist before the 7th century either?

Common sense eh?

Dude I'm talking about what he documented of Arabia. Since there's no whole of Africa in his map, then that means he didn't travel the whole of Africa. Simple as that, right ?

He did document the Hejaz in his time and he did not document Mecca. He did find a certain Macoraba where Arabs flocked to, but it was a recent town, not an ancient one from prophet Ibrahim's time centuries back.

 

[thinkreal93]

;D
"Trolling is a method of fishing where one or more fishing lines, baited with lures or bait fish, are drawn through the water. This may be behind a moving boat, or by slowly winding the line in when fishing from a static position, or even sweeping the line from side-to-side, e.g. when fishing from a jetty. Trolling is used to catch pelagic fish such as salmon, mackerel and kingfish." Wikipedia

Oh God.... This is serious.. I'm not trying to troll ! Why does everyone think I'm trolling or deceiving here ??!!

 

[Search]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

(Peace be upon you)

I don't know the answer to your question, though I'm sure I could find an answer (even if you say you're not looking for a satisfactory one) if I put the thought, time, and research into the matter. I'd honestly suggest you do the same too as you've already acknowledged you "need to dig deeper."

In recent history, I'd note that Palestine, for example, supposedly had became "erased" from Google maps which had created a controversy with some individuals supporting Google's omission saying that Palestine doesn't actually exist as an acknowledged state while others arguing otherwise. Finally, the tech giant had issued a clarification that the label of Palestine had never existed on the map while also clarifying that a technical glitch had removed the labels for West Bank and Gaza Strip and that the tech giant will fix this glitch as soon as feasible. Also, Crimea which is claimed by both Russia and Ukraine is mapped differently on Google maps depending from which country one is searching; this rather means that at least sometimes maps are born of sociopolitical understanding and other times from region-centric point of view.

I doubt that the world has changed so much that sociopolitical understandings or region-centric view had not also shaped previously other historical maps.

Also, I beg to differ with you on one issue, which is that it is "an important topic to think about" (i.e. words in the opening post) when Muslims have rather more important issues facing them than the lack of clarity as a point on ancient maps such as election of future leaders who'll be shaping understanding of contemporary world maps.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)

Wa 'alaikum salam.

Well I just found it while internet surfing (I don't exactly remember what I was looking up) and when I read more of it, it made sense to me. I'm still not entirely sure about it - I need to dig deeper.

As for your 2nd question, I'm not looking for satisfactory answer. I just wanted people to know and think about this.

 

[thinkreal93]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

(Peace be upon you)

I don't know the answer to your question, though I'm sure I could find an answer (even if you say you're not looking for a satisfactory one) if I put the thought, time, and research into the matter. I'd honestly suggest you do the same too as you've already acknowledged you "need to dig deeper."

In recent history, I'd note that Palestine, for example, supposedly had became "erased" from Google maps which had created a controversy with some individuals supporting Google's omission saying that Palestine doesn't actually exist as an acknowledged state while others arguing otherwise. Finally, the tech giant had issued a clarification that the label of Palestine had never existed on the map while also clarifying that a technical glitch had removed the labels for West Bank and Gaza Strip and that they're going to go back and fix the glitch. Also, Crimea which is claimed by both Russia and Ukraine is mapped differently on Google maps depending from which country one is searching; this rather means that at least sometimes maps are born of sociopolitical understanding and other times from region-centric point of view.

I doubt that the world has changed so much that sociopolitical understandings or region-centric view had not also shaped previously other historical maps.

Also, I beg to differ with you on one issue, which is that it is "an important point to think about" when Muslims have rather more important issues facing them than the lack of clarity as a point on ancient maps such as election of future leaders who'll be shaping understanding of contemporary world maps.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)

Yes I understand the way you're looking at it, seeing there are a bundle of big problems different Muslims carry and the need to deal with them.
I wanted to bring this up from religion-centric point of view, because if Mecca was indeed not where it is thought to be, that would be a huge thing.

I also get how socio-political or regional issues could affect the location of a particular town/area but I don't know of any such conflict/issue that may have centered around Mecca at that time.

Thanks for your input.

 

[Scimitar]

Hi guys.

Yet, Mecca practically doesn't exist at least before the 7th century.

that's coz Arabia is ATLANTIS

 

[Zafran]

The people that came up with this was Patricia Crone and the revisionists - outside of that nobody has actually taken it seriously. Your basically saying that all the Muslims/ arabs are basically lying about Mecca. God knows what that would actually achieve. Even beyond the sects/ schools of thought/civil wars in the history of Islam nobody has ever disagreed about about Mecca and Medina.

 

[thinkreal93]

The people that came up with this was Patricia Crone and the revisionists - outside of that nobody has actually taken it seriously. Your basically saying that all the Muslims/ arabs are basically lying about Mecca. God knows what that would actually achieve. Even beyond the sects/ schools of thought/civil wars in the history of Islam nobody has ever disagreed about about Mecca and Medina.

Yeah okay, and I think their points are very reasonable. When the facts are there, it doesn't matter if the majority thinks otherwise. See Catholicism for example. There are over a billion Catholics in the world - meaning their majority believe in the divinity of Christ. Muslims believe that's total falsehood.

So can it not be said that majority of Muslims are influenced by falsehood (if it actually is true that Mecca in Saudi Arabia isn't the real Mecca) ??? I'm not saying majority are lying. I'm saying majority just think so. What if they've actually been tricked into believing that this Mecca is in Saudi Arabia ??

 

[Scimitar]

So who were the Hagarites? Or how about 5th century BCE historian Herodotus citing the land of "Arabia" inhabited by "Arabs"???

or how about Paran and Bakkah mentioned in the OT? referring to the wilderness known as Arabia today and th city of Makkah respectively?

Or how about the 9th century BCE inscriptions on the kurkh monoliths referring to Arabia as Aram?

i can go on and on and on but your study of history is typically biased; you parrot the mainstream narrative when anyone with half a brain cell will tell you "the victor writes history with his own hand, and that hand is often dirty"

i mix study comparatively and the is why I have stumped the OP 3 times now in this thread and he hasn't even humoured me with a response.

what a joke.

Scimi

 

[Al Sultan]

Scimi I'm your number 1 fan,wallahi bro

 

[thinkreal93]

So who were the Hagarites? Or how about 5th century BCE historian Herodotus citing the land of "Arabia" inhabited by "Arabs"???

or how about Paran and Bakkah mentioned in the OT? referring to the wilderness known as Arabia today and th city of Makkah respectively?

Or how about the 9th century BCE inscriptions on the kurkh monoliths referring to Arabia as Aram?

When did I deny the existence of Arabia ? I am simply questioning the Mecca in present day Saudi Arabia.

Arabia, particularly the Arabia in the south isn't a wilderness. It's a desert. The wilderness of Paran is somewhere near the Sinai, not far south.

You humor me with your confusion.

 

[Scimitar]

When did I deny the existence of Arabia ? I am simply questioning the Mecca in present day Saudi Arabia.

Arabia, particularly the Arabia in the south isn't a wilderness. It's a desert. The wilderness of Paran is somewhere near the Sinai, not far south.

You humor me with your confusion.

You are unilingual, I take it. You read scripture, linearly - this is obvious since you do not know that the word "wilderness" in Hebrew Aramaic refers to exactly this: Arabia.

Since time immemorial - historians of old have referred to the lands of Arabia as "the wilderness" because it's a death trap to those who do not know how to navigate it's harsh and unwelcoming climate. Don't take my word for it, go get yourself an Hebrew Aramaic lexicon and see for yourself... or read the very same historians I mentioned in my first post in this thread

You're claim for Sinai - I made a video about:

I'm more than aware of where the REAL Sinai is, but it seems proponents from Christianity and Judaism can't even tell where their holy places are and now want to point fingers to Muslims - rich

With regards to your referencing the fertile areas of Arabia - it is Isaiah 21:13 is what you refer to - and this verse specifically refers to the mixed race tribe of Israelites who went further south in to Arabia in order to wait for the "prophet of the end time"...

The burden upon Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall ye lodge, O ye travelling companies of Dedanim. Isaiah 21:13

Here is the initial context:

11 The burden of Dumah. He calleth to me out of Seir, Watchman, what of the night? Watchman, what of the night?
12 The watchman said, The morning cometh, and also the night: if ye will enquire, enquire ye: return, come.
13 The burden upon Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall ye lodge, O ye travelling companies of Dedanim.
14 The inhabitants of the land of Tema brought water to him that was thirsty, they prevented with their bread him that fled.

The Dedanites were Mixed Race Children of Israel, who had bred with the Northern Arabs - their cousins... this was entirely natural and not a big deal during that time frame. The languages share common roots and so do their human roots - thru Abraham the prophet pbuh.

Abraham married Hagar who was Egyptian, and their first born, Ishmael pbuh was mixed race.

Solomon pbuh married many women apparently and had an harem of women from all nations.

Moses pbuh married an Arab woman, in fact - his coupling was the first biblically recognised Dedanite coupling.

Can you now see why your line of enquiry has more holes in it than swiss cheese?

Scimi

 

[thinkreal93]

You are unilingual, I take it. You read scripture, linearly - this is obvious since you do not know that the word "wilderness" in Hebrew Aramaic refers to exactly this: Arabia.

Since time immemorial - historians of old have referred to the lands of Arabia as "the wilderness" because it's a death trap to those who do not know how to navigate it's harsh and unwelcoming climate. Don't take my word for it, go get yourself an Hebrew Aramaic lexicon and see for yourself... or read the very same historians I mentioned in my first post in this thread

You're claim for Sinai - I made a video about:

I'm more than aware of where the REAL Sinai is, but it seems proponents from Christianity and Judaism can't even tell where their holy places are and now want to point fingers to Muslims - rich

With regards to your referencing the fertile areas of Arabia - it is Isaiah 21:13 is what you refer to - and this verse specifically refers to the mixed race tribe of Israelites who went further south in to Arabia in order to wait for the "prophet of the end time"...



Can you now see why your line of enquiry has more holes in it than swiss cheese?




[/COLOR]

No. In fact I don't quite understand why you wanted to present a whole set of mixed-race people. Are you trying to imply that that's how you connected northern & southern Arabia ? It's funny that you should mention *archeological evidence* in support for Jabl Musa being the real Sinai. Are you aware that there is NO archeological evidence to support the Mecca in Saudi Arabia is the real Mecca ???

Yeah, I'm not really versed with Hebrew or Aramaic. You're probably right about Arabia being referred to as the 'wilderness'. Doesn't really change anything.

Try to explain this. Why is there no proper documentation of Abraham being down in southern Arabia in Mecca (KSA) ? You would say he settled in Paran, but only after presuming Paran=southern Arabia and Becca=Mecca.

Why is there no archeological evidence of Mecca ? It is supposed to be a really significant historic place.

Why is Mecca KSA not on the trade route ? Why is there no clay or loam or trees or grass in Mecca KSA, as mentioned in hadith ?

Why are the oldest mosques not pointed towards Mecca KSA as their qibla ?