Trump Speak

  • Thread starter Thread starter noraina
  • Start date Start date
  • Replies Replies 56
  • Views Views 9K
This could be a whole topic on its own although I've met a few Muslims in the uK with similar and thankfully, niche views.

Our Rashidun Khalifah were all voted into power. Voting or democracy, in and of itself, is not haram. It is the Islamic way. We see the great fitnah in the muslim community arise as democracy became less relevant and power was transferred from father to son.

However, I do understand if Muslims did not want to vote in a khafir country, because you put it, we may well be electing the next person to bomb Muslim countries. Having said that, the good of voting far outweighs the bad.

If Muslims realised just how much power they have as voters in the west, with millions for example in the UK and elsewhere, we could turn the tide in favour of policies that we want. The Jews have done that consistently with far fewer people. In the UK, 2.7 million muslims have only 13 MPs, whereas a fraction of the number in the Jewish community have at least twice as many MPs (that are openly Jewish).

Imagine if more and more Muslims got involved in the democratic process, more and more of us in councils, then from councils I local governance, from local governance in parliament. We would have a significant say on international affairs and warfare. Currently, 10 of the 13 MPs voted against airstrikes in Syria. If more were involved, we could have turned the tide in Parliament.

Voting for a Khalifah is not like voting in democracy at all.

Democracy is for the people, and by the people, voting in accordance to the people. This is shirk.

In an Islamic State (afaik) one votes according to the Qur'aan and the Sunnah - to see whom is best. Democracy is not like that. And democracy is not Islamic.

In democracy people vote according to their desires and what they think is best. Giving people sovereignty, while sovereignty is for Allah alone. And His :swt: Prophet :saws1: (afaik)

So you can not say voting for a Khalifah = democracy. It is not. Since we do not vote for a Khalifah according to our desires, but the Qur'aan, and laymen can not (afaik) appoint a khalifah.

Only those who are knowledgable in Qur'aan and Sunnah, and those who Judge according to the Qur'aan. In this regard, a Khalifah is appointed.
 
Last edited:
So you need to study the first Islamic history more..The four Caliphas were elected. They voted for their Caliphas..Are you saying they were chosen through a haram way?

The way they were elected is not the way of Democracy.

Democracy as it is known today "rule by the people" is shirk.

They were elected and judged by judging them from the book of Allah.
 
Last edited:
:salam:

Seriously?

Voting is haram, afaik. Can any scholar confirm? @huzaifah ibn Adam.

Voting for whom will be the next commander to bomb Muslims................

Democracy is shirk.

And Allah :swt: knows best.

Yes. For the past hundred years the `Ulamaa of Haqq have been unanimous that voting is Haraam. The view that voting is permissible is a new opinion that cropped up only recently. The old `Ulamaa used to consider it Kufr to vote.

How the world is changing...

Those `Ulamaa left the Dunyaa, and new "Celebrity Shaykhs" have taken their place. Those `Ulamaa would turn in their graves if they saw what these new ones are catching on and what Fatwas they are giving...

100 years ago, the idea of someone saying that voting is permissible would have been considered insane. The people would have said, "Where in the world will any `Aalim give a Fatwaa like that??" Today they say it is permissible. The modernist "Shaykhs" who base their Deen on pleasing America. House-wives, we call them.

Everything is changing...

There is no goodness in being in this Dunyaa anymore.

...فإلى الله المشتكى وهو المستعان


Was-Salaam.
 
Last edited:
First four Khulafaa didn't come about through voting, by the way. Hadhrat `Umar رضي الله عنه chose to make Hadhrat Abu Bakr رضي الله عنه the Khaleefah because he knew that Rasoolullaah صلى الله عليه وسلم wanted that. Hadhrat Abu Bakr رضي الله عنه appointed Hadhrat `Umar رضي الله عنه as his Khaleefah. Hadhrat `Umar رضي الله عنه gave a list of a few names of who he felt should become the Khaleefah after him. Hadhrat `Uthmaan رضي الله عنه was chosen. Thereafter, in the time of Hadhrat `Ali رضي الله عنه the time of Fitnah arose, and the famous disagreement between the army of Hadhrat `Ali رضي الله عنه and the army of Hadhrat Mu`aawiyah رضي الله عنه took place, etc.

Anyway. There were no elections and voting.

And democracy is Kufr. Democracy is a religion. The Qur'aan states that whosoever rules by contrary to what Allaah Ta`aalaa has revealed, they are the Kaafireen. Democracy is for the people to rule by whatever they feel. That, in the eyes of Islaam, is satanism. Only Allaah Ta`aalaa has the right to legislate.

والسلام
 
First four Khulafaa didn't come about through voting, by the way. Hadhrat `Umar رضي الله عنه chose to make Hadhrat Abu Bakr رضي الله عنه the Khaleefah because he knew that Rasoolullaah صلى الله عليه وسلم wanted that. Hadhrat Abu Bakr رضي الله عنه appointed Hadhrat `Umar رضي الله عنه as his Khaleefah. Hadhrat `Umar رضي الله عنه gave a list of a few names of who he felt should become the Khaleefah after him. Hadhrat `Uthmaan رضي الله عنه was chosen. Thereafter, in the time of Hadhrat `Ali رضي الله عنه the time of Fitnah arose, and the famous disagreement between the army of Hadhrat `Ali رضي الله عنه and the army of Hadhrat Mu`aawiyah رضي الله عنه took place, etc.

Anyway. There were no elections and voting.

And democracy is Kufr. Democracy is a religion. The Qur'aan states that whosoever rules by contrary to what Allaah Ta`aalaa has revealed, they are the Kaafireen. Democracy is for the people to rule by whatever they feel. That, in the eyes of Islaam, is satanism. Only Allaah Ta`aalaa has the right to legislate.

والسلام
Brother Can you please briefly explain how can islamic way of running a country and electing rulers work today in this era? As we all know we have so many sects in one country so from which sect the ruler will be chosen as we cannot choose from the sect which is in majority ( because that happens in democracy)?
 
First four Khulafaa didn't come about through voting, by the way. Hadhrat `Umar رضي الله عنه chose to make Hadhrat Abu Bakr رضي الله عنه the Khaleefah because he knew that Rasoolullaah صلى الله عليه وسلم wanted that. Hadhrat Abu Bakr رضي الله عنه appointed Hadhrat `Umar رضي الله عنه as his Khaleefah. Hadhrat `Umar رضي الله عنه gave a list of a few names of who he felt should become the Khaleefah after him. Hadhrat `Uthmaan رضي الله عنه was chosen. Thereafter, in the time of Hadhrat `Ali رضي الله عنه the time of Fitnah arose, and the famous disagreement between the army of Hadhrat `Ali رضي الله عنه and the army of Hadhrat Mu`aawiyah رضي الله عنه took place, etc.

Anyway. There were no elections and voting.

And democracy is Kufr. Democracy is a religion. The Qur'aan states that whosoever rules by contrary to what Allaah Ta`aalaa has revealed, they are the Kaafireen. Democracy is for the people to rule by whatever they feel. That, in the eyes of Islaam, is satanism. Only Allaah Ta`aalaa has the right to legislate.

والسلام

It makes sense that ruling should be only according to the Qur'aan, the literal 100% word of Allah.

So how is a khalifah appointed? I know that they are judged by the Qur'aan and the Sunnah, whether they are fit or not.

In no way is a Khalifah appointed according to the "will of the People" or desires, this is satanism, afaik.

So how is it? And how would one go about doing it today? Or do we have no choice but to wait for Madhi r.a. who will rule by the Qur'aan and the Sunnah 100% ?
 
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)

I complete yet respectfully disagree with your view towards lamentation, and I ask those who are propagating the view that voting is haram (forbidden) to please sensibly read this post in full before doing so. Thank you, all of you, in advance for your consideration and patience.


Yes. For the past hundred years the `Ulamaa of Haqq have been unanimous that voting is Haraam. The view that voting is permissible is a new opinion that cropped up only recently. The old `Ulamaa used to consider it Kufr to vote.

The Ottoman Caliphate itself fell during 1918-1920; the 'ulamaa (scholars) of the past did not envision a time in which we as Muslims would be living in a time wherein Muslim leadership in the globe would be without power and our world's new realities would require voting if we should want to change anything for Muslims in terms of our combined present and future in non-Muslim majority countries. So, as is always the case, new realities required adaptation by the 'ulamaa and ijtihad (independent juristic reasoning). Please read the article "Viewpoint: Door of Ijtihaad is Open."

فَأَلْهَمَهَا فُجُورَهَا وَتَقْوَاهَا

Fa-alhamaha fujooraha wa taqwaha

And He inspired us to do the good and to avoid the bad. (Surat ash-Shams, 91:8).

Those `Ulamaa left the Dunyaa, and new "Celebrity Shaykhs" have taken their place. Those `Ulamaa would turn in their graves if they saw what these new ones are catching on and what Fatwas they are giving...
It is not only "Celebrity Shaykhs" giving the fatwa (ruling) of voting; my own mosque has a Sunni Hanafi Imam that is the graduate of a madrassah (school) in India and he himself encouraged for us to vote in this election. Not only that, many mosques across the U.S. have done the same whether Salafi, Barelwi, Sufi, Deobandi, Shia, whatever are doing the same. This is a matter of difference in fiqh (juristic) understanding and we should treat it as such instead of lamenting it as an issue of changed world and kufr (disbelief).

100 years ago, the idea of someone saying that voting is permissible would have been considered insane. The people would have said, "Where in the world will any `Aalim give a Fatwaa like that??" Today they say it is permissible. The modernist "Shaykhs" who base their Deen on pleasing America. House-wives, we call them.
100 years ago, we still had an Islamic Caliphate because the Ottomans were in power and their rule didn't collapse until 1918-1920. So, how could they have given fatwas (ruling) for our time as they're not soothsayers.

I think frankly a reality check is in order for all of us here participating in this thread which can only be done when we look to irresponsible fatwas (rulings) that have been issued in the past.

For example, I note that the 'ulamaa in India in 1900s issued a fatwa (ruling) that learning English is haram (forbidden) and kufr (disbelief) because they didn't want to imitate the non-Muslims in learning the English. Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, one of the founders of colleges in India, was one of the first to oppose this fatwa (ruling). However, to whom did the Muslim landowners listen? To these backwards 'ulemaa (scholars). I learned all this from the Indian Muslim layperson to whom I conversed with said probably was issued from the 'ulamaa of Deoband but he wasn't sure.

Regardless, the Muslims of that time accepted an irresponsible, impractical and unwise fatwa (ruling) as the truth that they should adopt. Do you know what happened? The Indian government conducted adverse possession usurping the lands from underneath these aristocratic and rich Muslim landowners and paid pittance for that usurpation and overnight their wealth with that edict in terms of land was gone. These Muslim landowners had no formal education and had long eschewed the learning of English on which they might have been able to rely. What's notable also is that the Hindu sycophants that were their servants in the time and houses of these aristocratic Muslim landowners before this edict of abolishing zamindaari (aristocratic landholding) would suck up to them and say that these Muslims were too good and right and they didn't need to learn English while they themselves would educate their children in English schools. So, what happened? The Muslim landowners not only lost their wealth and became poor but their daughters landed in prostitute houses because these Muslim men couldn't muster even the ghairaat (self-respect) to try to earn so that their families would not starve and so their daughters took up the world's oldest profession to feed their useless Muslim fathers and brothers. Today, a large segment of the Muslim population in India is quite poor as a result of this history, and these Muslims are now mistreated by their Hindu masters and Hindu neighbors. Illiteracy, as I hope you might have some cause to realize, is a hotbed for superstitions to also thrive and therefore these Muslims have mixed Islamic beliefs with Hindu superstition and then of course I note you'd probably also be quick to lament that they commit shirk (idolatry) yet you fail to realize that the original failure lay in their forefathers having failed to adapt to new realities that is permissible in Islam as the mercy of ijtihad (independent juristic reasoning) is available to us as Muslims and we can so doing flourish in our societies in every age.

Therefore, I link you to the article, "Viewpoint: Door of Ijtihaad is Open."

Finally, I also note that in Islam actions are by intentions. Therefore, the fatwa (ruling) such as the one issued by Imam Senad of Chicago saying, "It may be the case that the interests of Islam require Muslims to vote so as to ward off the greater evil and to reduce harmful effects" is correct and should not be demonized.

Umar ibn al-Khattab :ra: relayed the hadith (prophetic tradition), "Verily actions are by intentions, and for every person is what he intended. So the one whose hijrah (migration) was to Allah and His Messenger, then his hijrah was to Allah and His Messenger. And the one whose hijrah was for the world to gain from it, or a woman to marry her, then his hijrah was to what he made hijrah for."

Imam Shafi'i said of this hadith (prophetic tradition) by Umar :ra:, "This hadith constitutes a third of all knowledge."

Imam Ahmad said, "The foundations of Islam are upon three ahadith and that one of them is The hadith of 'Umar, 'Verily actions are by intention.

Abu Dawud said, "I looked into the hadith of the Musnad (i.e. of Ahmad) and it consisted of 40,000 ahadith. Then I looked again and (found that) the 40,000 ahadith revolved around 4 ahadith: and that one of them is The hadith of 'Umar, 'Verily actions are by intention.

And Abu Dawud further said, "Fiqh revolves around 5 ahadith (prophetic traditions): and that one of them is The hadith of 'Umar, 'Verily actions are by intention.'"

So, what we learn here is that intentions are "one third of all knowledge" and the "foundations of Islam" and 40,000 ahadith revolved around 'Verily actions are by intention' of Imam Ahmad's Musnad and its 1 of 5 hadiths that does Fiqh also revolves around it too.

Therefore, Muslims who are voting to ward off greater harm off of Muslims anywhere in any non-Muslim majority or Muslim majority country cannot be said to be doing any act that is haram (forbidden) or kufr (disbelief) and this deed does not require the lamentation of any imam, scholar, or layperson.

If somebody doesn't want to vote, that is of a certainty also a choice that they have the right to exercise; however, for those who do vote, they cannot be said to be doing any wrong; and I implore everyone to be sensible and not make a fiqh (juristic) difference into a cause of lamentation.

Thank you.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)
 
With regards to: "100 years ago, we still had an Islamic Caliphate because the Ottomans were in power and their rule didn't collapse until 1918-1920. So, how could they have given fatwas (ruling) for our time as they're not soothsayers."


The answer, sister, is that the Arabs did not recognise the Ottomans as being a Khilaafah. Some of the students of Muhammad ibn `Abdil Wahhaab even went as far as to say that the Ottoman rulers were Kuffaar and that the Ottoman dynasty was illegitimate. That's why they fought against the Ottomans and threw them out of Saudi Arabia, long before Kamal Attaturk formally abolished the Khilaafah in 1924. One notable example of a scholar who held this view (that the Ottomans were not the legitimate rulers of the Muslims) is Shaykh Naasir al-Fahd. The same is echoed by many of the Arab scholars, past and present. In fact, Naasir al-Fahd wrote an entire book on the issue of why he regarded them to be Kuffaar, Mushrikeen and illegitimate rulers, but I will not post it here as it won't serve any useful purpose. I respectfully disagree with the view of the Shaykh.

Anyway, that is a separate discussion entirely.

I remember, when growing up, all the Ulema in SA were against voting. It's surprising how much has changed, so soon.

The sister mentioned a Fatwaa given by some Ulema from India that learning English is Haraam: The person who told it to you, sister, has taken what happened out of context. You can read more about the issue here: http://www.darululoom-deoband.com/english/sys_of_edu/index4.htm

Was-Salaam.
 
Do you still live in America?
Yes but I live in El Paso where the culture is Mexican and I plan to move near a conservative Mennonite church in a rural area because I like their culture (even though I am not Christian). America is still wealthy because it used to be a moral country, so my ideal is to live comfortably by doing business with Americans mostly on the internet while avoiding contact with Americans as much as possible in real life.
 
Yes but I live in El Paso where the culture is Mexican and I plan to move near a conservative Mennonite church in a rural area because I like their culture (even though I am not Christian). America is still wealthy because it used to be a moral country, so my ideal is to live comfortably by doing business with Americans mostly on the internet while avoiding contact with Americans as much as possible in real life.

I'm curious to know when America was a moral country.

And if you're still living in America, then you should become a more active part of American society, in particular the political side of things, so you could make a genuine difference.
 
Voting for a Khalifah is not like voting in democracy at all.

Democracy is for the people, and by the people, voting in accordance to the people. This is shirk.

In an Islamic State (afaik) one votes according to the Qur'aan and the Sunnah - to see whom is best. Democracy is not like that. And democracy is not Islamic.

In democracy people vote according to their desires and what they think is best. Giving people sovereignty, while sovereignty is for Allah alone. And His :swt: Prophet :saws1: (afaik)

So you can not say voting for a Khalifah = democracy. It is not. Since we do not vote for a Khalifah according to our desires, but the Qur'aan, and laymen can not (afaik) appoint a khalifah.

Only those who are knowledgable in Qur'aan and Sunnah, and those who Judge according to the Qur'aan. In this regard, a Khalifah is appointed.

Democracy is simply the process whereby a group vote for that leader. There is a lot of leeway on who those people doing the voting are, so the democratic process was indeed in place at the voting of the Khalifah.

However, I understand with the moral implications of the characters who get voted into power in the modern world. But again, that doesn ot make voting haram and to label it as such, you must provide evidence from the Quran and Sunnah. The evidence we have, points in the opposite direction to what you believe.
 
I'm curious to know when America was a moral country.
The loss of morality has been gradual, probably starting from the late 1800s. But I would say America was still somewhat moral until about 2000. Now it is totally immoral.

And if you're still living in America, then you should become a more active part of American society, in particular the political side of things, so you could make a genuine difference.
I honestly don't see the point. If the people are okay and the system is corrupt, one can make a difference. But when the people are corrupt, I think it is hopeless.
 
The loss of morality has been gradual, probably starting from the late 1800s. But I would say America was still somewhat moral until about 2000. Now it is totally immoral.


I honestly don't see the point. If the people are okay and the system is corrupt, one can make a difference. But when the people are corrupt, I think it is hopeless.

Hello. I dont know if you have ever done this before but could you please define your understanding of corruption of the society and why you consider the AMerican society today corrupt? What you find in most of Americans corrupt and makes you think impossible to live together? Regards..
 
The way they were elected is not the way of Democracy.

Democracy as it is known today "rule by the people" is shirk.

They were elected and judged by judging them from the book of Allah.

Yes today's modern Democracy has such a strict definition and yes secular democracy is not something within Islam but we are simply talking about "voting". You said voting is haram and I say the first and "real" Khalifas were elected by some people. We can approach to the subject from this angle and can not simply say "voting is haram". Voting, electing the ruler is pretty an Islamic way of succesion of the ruler. The ruling should be according to Islam is a different subject. Also, dont think by voting you legitimate the un-Islamic system because when you vote you will vote for the "most" Islamic candidate and by not doing this you will evantually cause the "most" unIslamic candidate rule the country with the most unIslamic way. The example of this in AMerica is Hilary Clington since Donald Trump is going to be just a nightmare for the Muslims in America. Can you understand the point?
 
No. Shaykh Muhammad ibn `Abdil Wahhaab was born in 1703 CE, and he rejected them. He had not done so on account of nationalism. With him, it was an issue of `Aqeedah, Tawheed, etc. The later Arabs (the family of Saud) fought against the Ottomans on account of nationalism, yes. But they were much later. It was as early as the 1700s that IAW rejected the Ottomans.
 
For one thing the USA is not a democracy, it is a republic. These elections are just to keep the plebeians happy, but the nation is always being run by the patricians and nothing really changes. The Democrat party was formed by the GOP. True democracy just does not work well and was used in very low populations. It was abandoned by the Athenians after the Persians hammered them. So don't worry about Trump and Clinton as they are just puppets in a show, merely to distract the masses.
 
The loss of morality has been gradual, probably starting from the late 1800s. But I would say America was still somewhat moral until about 2000. Now it is totally immoral.


I honestly don't see the point. If the people are okay and the system is corrupt, one can make a difference. But when the people are corrupt, I think it is hopeless.

You don't believe America was immoral when it went to the Philippines slaughtered thousands upon thousands of the impoverished? Was it moral when it detained every day Japanese-Americans in concentration camps? Was it moral when it slaughtered a 100 000 people with the most powerful weapon in human history? Was it moral when the American colonisers sped across America, wiping out the indigenous people? Was it moral when it reduced black people to less than animals?

I do not believe any nation has been as thoroughly embroiled in human genocide, as much as the United States, from it's conception in the 18th century to the modern world. In the age of the media, a period of some 70 years, the US has been the primary propagator of the myth of "the bogeyman". Communism, Africans, Islam and so on. We're all out to get you. Yet you're chosen by God to protect us.

In terms of your last statement, I agree that it is extremely difficult, if not nigh on impossible to change the nature of an entire people but don't give it. What does evil do when good men are silent?
 
:salam:

Seriously?

Voting is haram, afaik. Can any scholar confirm? @huzaifah ibn Adam.

Voting for whom will be the next commander to bomb Muslims................

Democracy is shirk.

And Allah :swt: knows best.

Are you serious?? so your saying that the people have zero say in who runs them? Hows that going for Asssad in Syria, or the militery rule in Egypt - or the countless monarchs in the Gulf?
 

Similar Threads

Back
Top