Why can't atheists just be wrong?

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... the God claim is ever moving and unfalsifiable ...
Aristotle's work has been around for 2500 years. It hasn't changed ever since he published it. Historical events are always untestable/unfalsifiable. How could anybody ever repeat a test to find out what happened at the beginning of times? It could not possibly make the test have happened, also at the beginning of times. We are not trying to investigate and replicate a technique to create universes.

Furthermore, Aristotle does not rest on testability (science) but on provability (math). It is not even allowed to overrule provability with testability. Overruling Aristotle amounts to pointing out a flaw in his proof, i.e. that his claim cannot be derived from his choice of axioms. There are indeed arguments possible, to put questions next to his work, but that is obviously not what you are doing. You are clearly not familiar enough with the existing counter-arguments to Aristotle's work, and hence you just invent them on the fly. That is why the quality of your counter-arguments is absolutely lousy. Why don't you just do your homework first?
 
Pygoscelis has given you the long answer, here's the short version: The scientific basis for atheism is that there's no scientific evidence for religion.
Well, yeah, and there is no scientific evidence for the Battle of the Pyramids, simply because it can only be historical. Indeed, what tests in what lab is anybody going to repeat to support the idea that this battle really took place? If your only tool is a hammer, then the whole world will indeed soon start looking like a nail. Here is the short version: Atheists refuse to read up on what exactly science is.
 
God creates the future and gives us insights into it.

How does it happen? Dreams, visions, etc.

Their very fulfillment is evidence.
 
God creates the future and gives us insights into it.
Atheists seek to destroy your faith in the singular God because there is political value for them in doing so. They want to make you abandon Divine Law, because they want to convince you to obey to man-made law instead. So, what the atheists really want, is to appoint a bunch of idiots -- by using a voting circus -- who will invent new laws, which they want you to recognize as legitimate. Your faith in the singular God is an obstacle to that.

In fact, there is absolutely no need or requirement to "prove" that the singular God exists. All we need to demonstrate, is that removing faith in the singular God will cost you dearly, because then these atheists will jump on the opportunity to "scientifically prove" that you should obey to Donald Trump instead.
 
The short version is that people only believe what they want to believe. I believe in the singular God, because it suits me, and because the alternative does not suit me at all ! ;-)
 
Sorry for the delay. Wasn't feeling well.

OK, then, let's just go with, "No, I am not sure. Is my lack of certainty sufficient reason to declare that they do in fact exist?" Especially when the stakes are so great.



Since you ask:

My religious background is Christian-Protestant, specifically Wisconsin Synod Lutheran (fundamentalist evangelical). Like most, I was brought up in my parents’ church and, essentially, inherited my religion. My loss of faith began quietly, when I first read Lawrence and Lee's "Inherit the Wind," a play about the Scopes "Monkey Trial." It didn't really make an impression at the time, which was fortunate since this was during my junior year at a synod high school. It was, however, my first substantive exposure to a non-biblical view of the universe. From there, one thing led to another over the years and decades. I noticed as things went along that it was getting more difficult to have meaningful religious discussions, as my correspondents usually fell back on dogma, doctrine, and even the outright fantastic in response to my arguments and questions; questions spurred by discrepancies I noticed between what I could see and what I’d been taught to believe. I think the seminal moment came when I first saw a presentation of the PBS series "Cosmos," with Carl Sagan. It wasn't an epiphany, but it did give me a framework within which I could begin to assemble my doubts into a coherent whole, and a base from which I could begin searching for answers.

With the advent of the computer and the internet, I finally had a way to find and connect with others like myself. It didn't take long, though, to notice that most of my free-thinking friends were downright hostile to the very idea of god, any god, as well as to all religious believers. Richard Dawkins' books "The Root of All Evil" and "The God Delusion" became their bible and doctrine. I use those words on purpose; to me, there is no visible difference between the fundamentalist believer and the "fundamentalist" atheist. The rhetoric, fervor and reliance on dogma appear the same; the only major difference is that the believers' patronizing is replaced by the atheists' invective. I've always felt that it was easier to talk with a friend than with an enemy, even if only to exchange ideas with no intention of converting the other person to my point of view, so I try to reject confrontation as a matter of course.

Then I read another work by Carl Sagan: "The Varieties of Scientific Experience; Notes on the personal search for God," which is actually transcripts of Sagan's Gifford Lectures at Glasgow University in 1985. What immediately struck me was a remark in the Forward by the book's editor and Sagan's widow, Ann Druyan, regarding Sagan's treatment of his audience: "...what remains with me was his extraordinary combination of principled, crystal-clear advocacy coupled with respect and tenderness toward those who did not share his views." If I ever had an epiphany in this whole process, this was it; my immediate reaction was "Yes!" And then there was the book itself, laying out observable and testable arguments why the predominant Western notion of a personal creator deity is at least insufficient and at best unlikely. Since then, I've taken Carl Sagan as my model. He's not perfect and he has his hobby horses, but I find him so much more palatable than I do Dawkins. I believe it's possible to disagree with everything Sagan says and still enjoy the read.

Speaking of Sagan, I just re-read his preface to "Varieties" and was reminded that there are two types of religion, natural and revealed. Revealed religion is, of course, that which is derived from holy writ, to include teachings, commentaries and all other additions and supplements. Natural religion Sagan understood to mean "everything about the world not supplied by revelation." I would define it more specifically as the idea that humans have an inbred albeit vague knowledge of God and a desire to seek him out. Neither believers nor atheists spend much effort distinguishing between the two types, with the result that arguments about God and Religion often become intermingled and confused.

Thank you for writing this jabeady. It is a good read.

Seems that you and I came from opposite ends of the spectrum. You are an apostate and I never believed. I can not relate to the sense of losing faith in God(s), and I can only imagine what that must be like. I have met many atheists who went through something similar, and some much more dramatic exodus' from religion than yours.

Sometimes these people have told me that they now hate the religion. Bu other times they tell me they still respect the religion, still hold onto certain rituals from it, etc. Is the latter the case for you? Do you still see your former religion as a force for social good instead of bad?

My perspective to religion is and has always been as the outsider. So I can only judge by what I see and what actions believers take and what they claim to believe, etc.
 
Aristotle's work has been around for 2500 years.

Horray for Aristotle. You've again interjected with something unrelated to what you quoted. I'm not talking about this undefined not sentient first cause of Aristotle's. I'm talking about God(s): Beings with magic powers that create universes, are prayed to, and tell people not to eat pork, who you can marry, and invites you to life's afterparty, etc.
 
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The short version is that people only believe what they want to believe. I believe in the singular God, because it suits me, and because the alternative does not suit me at all ! ;-)

Finally you said something on topic. You believe in God because is suits you. It feels good to you.

People feel their way into religion, and think their way out.

And before anybody thinks I am saying atheists think and theists don't; that isn't what I am saying. There are plenty of very intelligent theists who spend a lot of time thinking about their religious beliefs, and as Shermer says, the smart ones are especially good at maintaining them. They come up with brilliant explanations to rationalize way their doubts.
 
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They come up with brilliant explanations to rationalize way their doubts.
Do you really believe that I doubt that Divine Law is superior to what Donald Trump is about to invent?
I do not need to "rationalize away" my dislike for the voting circus or for crooked Hillary put-her-in-prison Clinton.
Seriously, I have exactly zero doubt about my choice.
 
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:) Hi. Hope you're doing well.

I can not relate to the sense of losing faith in God(s), and I can only imagine what that must be like.
I know you haven't really asked anyone a question and are only generally speaking; I hope though you don't mind me getting in a word herein. When I was a child, I had some belief in some kind of personal God even though I wasn't taught religion as my parents were quite secular and too immersed in their own social life. However, I'd become an atheist at age 13/14. I think for most people erosion of faith is a gradual thing and not overnight; the same thing happened. It wasn't that I suddenly stopped but that gradually I didn't even realize when I'd stopped believing in this personal God. I think a large part of wherein my disbelief took root is when I'd had unanswered prayers so I stopped even asking anymore and then didn't even feel the need. Nothing changes in the world but the lens through which you view the world and yourself changes.
My perspective to religion is and has always been as the outsider. So I can only judge by what I see and what actions believers take and what they claim to believe, etc.
I think probably the only time people atheists have trouble or hate for their former religion or belief system is when they have lived in a fundamentalist family that has typically moved to cram the religion/belief system down their throats. For example, I have talked to apostates on the Internet. Sometimes, they have left because of unanswered prayers. Other times, they have left because they grew up in a kind of crazy-controlling family which have made religion into a means of suffocating their right to make their own choices in life. Other times, they have left the religion because their rational mind couldn't reconcile what they were reading in terms of faith-based material. Other times, they have been much like you and didn't ever believe. Other times, they as converts didn't find the support from the community to which they thought they'd get the support. I think the commonality, however, is that someplace somewhere they felt a lack that they couldn't in the end accept and didn't have any interest in trying.
 
Finally you said something on topic. You believe in God because is suits you. It feels good to you.

People feel their way into religion, and think their way out.

And before anybody thinks I am saying atheists think and theists don't; that isn't what I am saying. There are plenty of very intelligent theists who spend a lot of time thinking about their religious beliefs, and as Shermer says, the smart ones are especially good at maintaining them. They come up with brilliant explanations to rationalize way their doubts.

Your world is very tiny, your existence serves little-to-no purpose.

Rather than reflect... you just write your first thoughts.

Without reflection, you will never find truth.
 
I've seen a lot of things written here about atheism and atheists. The more charitable items suggest that we're mentally or emotionally disturbed, and/or are suffering from some other form of dementia.

Personally, I never really considered the possibility that you religious folk were somehow demented (with some specific exceptions), just mistaken. Why can't you return the favor?
Unfortunately most atheists behave like they are mentally or emotionally disturbed. It's nice to encounter exceptions, but they are rare. And I say this as a former atheist (I was raised atheist).

All I ask is that you vaccinate your children, and educate them to believe that the vast majority of people are good and decent, regardless of their religious views.
The vast majority of people are evil. Humanity has devolved into a rather bad species. Only religion elevates people to goodness and decency.

I am not Muslim, and I very grateful for the tolerance of the Muslims here for allowing me to post here. Of course I am banned on every mainstream forum, especially atheist forums. I follow the Old Testament and the only two groups that are tolerant enough not to ban me are Muslims and conservative Mennonites.

I have no interest in converting anyone to my beliefs, but I do try to answer people's questions, and I would like to answer yours. Atheism is a religion, founded by Plato, that has faith in the idea what there is absolute truth (ideal forms) that can be found by deductive reason. I was raised in this tradition, having studied math, science, and history in great detail when I was younger. I now reject this belief. The claim by atheists that atheism is simply non-belief in God is also false. For example, Buddhists do not believe in God but they reject the atheist label.

http://www.middlesexdesign.com/gwc/is_buddhism_atheistic.htm

So this atheist claim is simply a lie, much like North Korea calling itself the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea". Groups cannot make up false definitions of themselves. Atheists share much more than just a rejection of God. Unfortunately skepticism is not something that atheists share, most atheists are fundamentalists who hold their beliefs on faith and close their minds to alternatives. What atheists do share is an arrogant overvaluation of their own deductive powers, and a vast under-appreciation of factual evidence, particularly historical evidence. The historical evidence overwhelming shows that religion is needed for a culture to succeed, and that all cultures that become secular soon decay and die. Aristophanes (in humor) and Machiavelli both do a great job of making this point. Unfortunately I am not well read on Islamic sources, so I can't quote any, but Islam also produced a great culture and I hope Islam is able to do so again in the future. Atheism certainly won't.
 
So, now the atheists are circus-voting for our beloved Mr. Smart, Donald Trump, and his crooked Hillary put-her-in-prison Clinton, for them to invent new man-made laws. But how many new man-made laws do we need before all our needs for new man-made laws have completely been satisfied?

P.S. He is so vigilant !
 
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Greetings,

Atheism is a religion, founded by Plato, that has faith in the idea what there is absolute truth (ideal forms) that can be found by deductive reason.

What makes you think Plato founded atheism? The divine appears often in his work, and he encourages belief in religion for the good of society.

The claim by atheists that atheism is simply non-belief in God is also false.

But that's exactly what the word means. What other claims do you think atheism makes besides non-belief in god or gods?

Peace
 
Atheism has no base.

They assume we are also Atheists.

There's a reason why nonreligious countries die.

Does not a truth hurt you bro?

Now go cry.
 
The claim by atheists that atheism is simply non-belief in God is also false.

What do you call the mere non-belief in Gods, if not atheism?

The historical evidence overwhelming shows that religion is needed for a culture to succeed, and that all cultures that become secular soon decay and die.

If this is true, it doesn't mean Gods are real.

Indeed I have met many atheists who believe that religious delusion is important glue to keep the fabric of society cohesive, and that only a select few should see through it. I find them rather arrogant personally, and see no issue with the majority of society moving to a post-religious mindset. We see it doing well in the nordic countries.
 
So, now the atheists are circus-voting for our beloved Mr. Smart, Donald Trump, and his crooked Hillary put-her-in-prison Clinton, for them to invent new man-made laws. But how many new man-made laws do we need before all our needs for new man-made laws have completely been satisfied?

P.S. He is so vigilant !

Totally off topic (which appears to be your routine) but I find this fascinating. You blame atheists for Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton. Atheists are a growing minority, and there are many more who hide their atheism, but atheists are certainly not big enough in numbers or power to place both nominees of both major political powers in the USA. A big part of Trump's base is actually the evangelical Christians (which is weird indeed).

I am also curious if you are seeking anarchy (no laws or government) and expect God to come down and rule over us instead? Or do you plan to "circus-vote" a religious council of some sort or some sort of religious dictator? Do you plan to use the Quran or some other established holy book (written by men pretending to or thinking they are speaking for God) or will you have your cadre of priest-politicians rule over us with new words from God (that they make up?)
 
There is no and can be no scientific evidence against the God claim, because the God claim is ever moving and unfalsifiable, just like the faeries in the garden claim, or the claim that an invisible alien is sitting on your head. I can't prove it untrue, but that doesn't make it sensible to think it true, and I can dismiss it, as I believe you would too regarding the faeries and the alien.

Where there is no good evidence for A, and where A is a fantastic claim and appears to be self contradictory, we need no evidence against A to dismiss it. True, we can't know for certain A isn't true, but we need not consider any further that it is true, unless and until we have some actual indication that it is, beyond empty claims and stories.

That goes for a wide variety of claims, from bigfoot and the loch ness monster to alien abductions to homeopathy to Gods.

We're back at step one. I refrained from saying it last time but it's a load of nonsense. You are completely avoiding the question. If you don't have any basis for your belief than say so. Don't hide your lack of conviction behind this mumbo jumbo.

Sorry for the delay. Wasn't feeling well.

OK, then, let's just go with, "No, I am not sure. Is my lack of certainty sufficient reason to declare that they do in fact exist?" Especially when the stakes are so great.



Since you ask:

My religious background is Christian-Protestant, specifically Wisconsin Synod Lutheran (fundamentalist evangelical). Like most, I was brought up in my parents’ church and, essentially, inherited my religion. My loss of faith began quietly, when I first read Lawrence and Lee's "Inherit the Wind," a play about the Scopes "Monkey Trial." It didn't really make an impression at the time, which was fortunate since this was during my junior year at a synod high school. It was, however, my first substantive exposure to a non-biblical view of the universe. From there, one thing led to another over the years and decades. I noticed as things went along that it was getting more difficult to have meaningful religious discussions, as my correspondents usually fell back on dogma, doctrine, and even the outright fantastic in response to my arguments and questions; questions spurred by discrepancies I noticed between what I could see and what I’d been taught to believe. I think the seminal moment came when I first saw a presentation of the PBS series "Cosmos," with Carl Sagan. It wasn't an epiphany, but it did give me a framework within which I could begin to assemble my doubts into a coherent whole, and a base from which I could begin searching for answers.

With the advent of the computer and the internet, I finally had a way to find and connect with others like myself. It didn't take long, though, to notice that most of my free-thinking friends were downright hostile to the very idea of god, any god, as well as to all religious believers. Richard Dawkins' books "The Root of All Evil" and "The God Delusion" became their bible and doctrine. I use those words on purpose; to me, there is no visible difference between the fundamentalist believer and the "fundamentalist" atheist. The rhetoric, fervor and reliance on dogma appear the same; the only major difference is that the believers' patronizing is replaced by the atheists' invective. I've always felt that it was easier to talk with a friend than with an enemy, even if only to exchange ideas with no intention of converting the other person to my point of view, so I try to reject confrontation as a matter of course.

Then I read another work by Carl Sagan: "The Varieties of Scientific Experience; Notes on the personal search for God," which is actually transcripts of Sagan's Gifford Lectures at Glasgow University in 1985. What immediately struck me was a remark in the Forward by the book's editor and Sagan's widow, Ann Druyan, regarding Sagan's treatment of his audience: "...what remains with me was his extraordinary combination of principled, crystal-clear advocacy coupled with respect and tenderness toward those who did not share his views." If I ever had an epiphany in this whole process, this was it; my immediate reaction was "Yes!" And then there was the book itself, laying out observable and testable arguments why the predominant Western notion of a personal creator deity is at least insufficient and at best unlikely. Since then, I've taken Carl Sagan as my model. He's not perfect and he has his hobby horses, but I find him so much more palatable than I do Dawkins. I believe it's possible to disagree with everything Sagan says and still enjoy the read.

Speaking of Sagan, I just re-read his preface to "Varieties" and was reminded that there are two types of religion, natural and revealed. Revealed religion is, of course, that which is derived from holy writ, to include teachings, commentaries and all other additions and supplements. Natural religion Sagan understood to mean "everything about the world not supplied by revelation." I would define it more specifically as the idea that humans have an inbred albeit vague knowledge of God and a desire to seek him out. Neither believers nor atheists spend much effort distinguishing between the two types, with the result that arguments about God and Religion often become intermingled and confused.

Hey, hope you're feeling better.

I agree that Dawkins is difficult to engage with and in all honesty, reading TGD, I was taken a back by his poor writing and constant contradictions (the same could be said for Krauss).

With regards to Sagan, I am completely unfamiliar with him, so could you give me a basic overview of what he wrote and why it convinced you so?

Edit: I completely agree with your final line.
 
What makes you think Plato founded atheism? The divine appears often in his work, and he encourages belief in religion for the good of society.
I don't remember Plato ever taking the traditional Greek gods seriously. What he really worshipped was his "ideal forms" and he literally proposed a priesthood based on this in "The Republic".

But that's exactly what the word means. What other claims do you think atheism makes besides non-belief in god or gods?
There are many minor things shared by atheists like liberalism, feminism, and other cultural diseases. But the core of the atheist religion is that there exists an absolute universal truth outside of the mind that can be discovered with deductive reasoning.


What do you call the mere non-belief in Gods, if not atheism?
I would call it nontheism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontheism

If this is true, it doesn't mean Gods are real.

Indeed I have met many atheists who believe that religious delusion is important glue to keep the fabric of society cohesive, and that only a select few should see through it. I find them rather arrogant personally, and see no issue with the majority of society moving to a post-religious mindset. We see it doing well in the nordic countries.
Responding to this requires defining both "God" and "real" (true). And I am quite sure that my definitions of these words are different from yours to a degree that you probably wouldn't even understand my definitions. But there is no point going into this if your mind is closed.

As for the post-religious societies, there is no point debating with them since they will simply self-destruct in the next century.
 
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