Salah

[Zafran]

I am nothing like you.

I understand the evidences of the different Madhabs so by definition of Taqliid I am not making Taqliid.

I can see you are feeling hurt now and getting angry so I will stop because I do not wish there be any ill feelings between us.

But if you would like to continue an academic discussion I can continue. But you will have to provide evidence and understand it. Can you do that?

Muqalids that is what we both are.

 

[Zafran]

Fuqhas should be given preference when any disputed issue comes concerning hadith but the muqallidin of muhaddidsin create fitnah.
Every sane person understands that a faqih gave rulings based on a particular hadith/ahadith and people/scholars accepted.After a century/several decades a muhaddis is born, declared the the same hadith as weak but people kept on following fuqha. Ummah was united till last century when a few groups raised to invalidate the established rulings by resorting the pretext of research of muhaddidsin.

e.g.
4 imams agreed on some differences in salah between men and women.
and after2 centuries imam Baihiqi shafi'i declared the hadith as weak but neither scholars nor people left following fuqha concerning this matter.
centuries passed, ummah faced no dispute in this matter.

but some scholars of this modern age searched the opinion of muhaddidsin regarding the same hadith . They started fitnah by spreading the wrong msg "there is no difference in salah between men and women"

Brother I have been trying to convince him for the past posts that we are both Muqalids but He doeasnt seem to want to listen.

 

[ZeeshanParvez]

Fuqhas should be given preference when any disputed issue comes concerning hadith but the muqallidin of muhaddidsin create fitnah.

Oh dear. You are a Madhabi fanatic. I am so sorry to have indulged in a discussion with you.

If I am not mistaken are you azafar from Ummah the man who insulted Imaam al-Bukhaari by calling me an ordinary Aalim because he labelled Abu Hanifah weak in hadith?

Btw I showed you evidence in this thread that Imaam Ahmed said that everyone needs Qiyaas.

Guess you learned something you were ignorant of as you thought the Imaams did not make Qiyaas. : )

 

[azc]

Lets say your right although there is clearly a difference of opinion because Ibn Subki had the opinion that he was shafi. However lets accept your conclusion. Are a mujthaid like Bukhari? if not you have to do taqleed of a mujtahid as they are the people that can do ijthaid.

Imam bukhari, indeed, mujtahid in hadith but Q is why he was considered as the follower of imam shafi'I in fiqh?
Reason everyone layman or scholar respected shariah a lot. They couldn't imagine to keep themselves away from adherence to 4 madhab.

 

[ZeeshanParvez]

Imam bukhari, indeed, mujtahid in hadith but Q is why he was considered as the follower of imam shafi'I in fiqh?
Reason everyone layman or scholar respected shariah a lot. They couldn't imagine to keep themselves away from adherence to 4 madhab.

Actually أبو مصعب أحمد بن أبي بكر المديني said that Imaam al-Bukhaari was more learned than Imaam Ahmad bin Hanbal and was at par in Fiqh with Maalik.

محمد بن إسماعيل أفقه عندنا وأبصر من ابن حنبل ، فلما اعترض عليه بعض جلسائه قائلا : جاوزت الحد ، قال أبو مصعب : لو أدركت مالكا ونظرت إلى وجهه ووجه محمد بن إسماعيل لقلت : كلاهما واحد في الفقه والحديث

You can find the quote in Taarikh Baghdaad.

 

[azc]

Brother I have been trying to convince him for the past posts that we are both Muqalids but He doeasnt seem to want to listen.

You can't convince a stubborn.

 

[Zafran]

You can't convince a stubborn.

Salaam

Leave the argumentation about Fiqh its useless - stick the bigger matters. May God bless you

peace

 

[azc]

Oh dear. You are a Madhabi fanatic. I am so sorry to have indulged in a discussion with you.

If I am not mistaken are you azafar from Ummah the man who insulted Imaam al-Bukhaari by calling me an ordinary Aalim because he labelled Abu Hanifah weak in hadith?

Btw I showed you evidence in this thread that Imaam Ahmed said that everyone needs Qiyaas.

Guess you learned something you were ignorant of as you thought the Imaams did not make Qiyaas. : )

He is my friend.

Of qiyas : I asked you one question but you are hiding your face from answering.

Of taqllid : who doesn't do taqllid whether it's of fuqha or muhaddidsin?

 

[ZeeshanParvez]

He is my friend.

Of qiyas : I asked you one question but you are hiding your face from answering.

Of taqllid : who doesn't do taqllid whether it's of fuqha or muhaddidsin?

Hiding ones face has many spiritual advantages.

For starters you know you aren't showing off. There is no Riyaa.

If you give up an argument when you know you are right you might get a house in Paradise.

You do not have an ego issue. Your opponent thinks he has won and gets prideful.

People laugh at you and mock you when you hide your face and even backbite all of which gives you free good deeds.

I think I will hide my face more often from now on : )

 

[azc]

Actually أبو مصعب أحمد بن أبي بكر المديني said that Imaam al-Bukhaari was more learned than Imaam Ahmad bin Hanbal and was at par in Fiqh with Maalik.

محمد بن إسماعيل أفقه عندنا وأبصر من ابن حنبل ، فلما اعترض عليه بعض جلسائه قائلا : جاوزت الحد ، قال أبو مصعب : لو أدركت مالكا ونظرت إلى وجهه ووجه محمد بن إسماعيل لقلت : كلاهما واحد في الفقه والحديث

You can find the quote in Taarikh Baghdaad.

I love imam bukhari. If the ilm of all the scholars of this age is accumulated can't be compared to this great, great, imam who devoted his whole life in service of Deen.

 

[ZeeshanParvez]

Of taqllid : who doesn't do taqllid whether it's of fuqha or muhaddidsin?

Ill leave you with what Abu Umar al-Namari al-Andalusi al-Qurtubi al-Maliki said:

Ponder over it:

Volume 2 Page 787


والتقليد عند العلماء غير الاتباع؛ لأن الاتباع هو تتبع القائل على ما بان لك من فضل قوله وصحة مذهبه، والتقليد أن تقول بقوله وأنت لا تعرف وجه القول ولا معناه وتأبى من سواه، أو أن يتبين لك خطؤه فتتبعه مهابة خلافه وأنت قد بان لك فساد قوله وهذا محرم القول به في دين الله سبحانه وتعالى

[Paraphrase] al-Taqliid in the sight of scholars is different from al-'Ittibaa' because al-'Ittibaa' means to follow the saying of someone after the correctness of his saying and Madhab have become apparent to you and taqliid is when you do not recognize the saying nor its meaning and you follow him even when it becomes apparent to you that he made a mistake...

This is Abu Umar al-Namari al-Andalusi al-Qurtubi al-Maliki who was a Maaliki Judge. He was from 400 H.

He clearly mentions a difference between Taqliid and Ittibaa'.

The difference is not something the Salafis coined.

It existed back in 400 H.

Ponder over it. Learn the difference between Taqliid and Ittibaa' if you truly aren't stubborn ; )

 

[azc]

Hiding ones face has many spiritual advantages.

For starters you know you aren't showing off. There is no Riyaa.

If you give up an argument when you know you are right you might get a house in Paradise.

You do not have an ego issue. Your opponent thinks he has won and gets prideful.

People laugh at you and mock you when you hide your face and even backbite all of which gives you free good deeds.

I think I will hide my face more often from now on : )

No bro, I am sorry if I've hurt you.

It's merely a discussion.

 

[azc]

Ill leave you with what Abu Umar al-Namari al-Andalusi al-Qurtubi al-Maliki said:Ponder over it:Volume 2 Page 787والتقليد عند العلماء غير الاتباع؛ لأن الاتباع هو تتبع القائل على ما بان لك من فضل قوله وصحة مذهبه، والتقليد أن تقول بقوله وأنت لا تعرف وجه القول ولا معناه وتأبى من سواه، أو أن يتبين لك خطؤه فتتبعه مهابة خلافه وأنت قد بان لك فساد قوله وهذا محرم القول به في دين الله سبحانه وتعالى[Paraphrase] al-Taqliid in the sight of scholars is different from al-'Ittibaa' because al-'Ittibaa' means to follow the saying of someone after the correctness of his saying and Madhab have become apparent to you and taqliid is when you do not recognize the saying nor its meaning and you follow him even when it becomes apparent to you that he made a mistake...This is Abu Umar al-Namari al-Andalusi al-Qurtubi al-Maliki who was a Maaliki Judge. He was from 400 H.He clearly mentions a difference between Taqliid and Ittibaa'.The difference is not something the Salafis coined.It existed back in 400 H.Ponder over it. Learn the difference between Taqliid and Ittibaa' if you truly aren't stubborn ; )

Its also a form of taqllid to accept this definition of taqllid without any dalil.

Taqllid : following a non prophet in terms of his sayings or doings without any dalil is taqllid

Ittiba: sometimes it's taqllid

"wal lazeena aamanoo wat taba'athum zurriyatuhum bi eemanin " al toor 21

children follow their parents without any dalil and accepts Islam.

or

"fa la tattabiul hawa" al nisa 135

here following hawa is prohibited. No Q of dalil is here.

Ittiba as ita'at:

"ittabioo ma unzila ilaykum" al araf

we are instructed to follow Quran

or

"qul in kuntum tuhibboonallaha fat tabioonee"

here we're instructed to follow the prophet s.a.w.

 

[ZeeshanParvez]

Its also a form of taqllid to accept this definition of taqllid without any dalil.

Taqllid : following a non prophet in terms of his sayings or doings without any dalil is taqllid

Ittiba: sometimes it's taqllid

"wal lazeena aamanoo wat taba'athum zurriyatuhum bi eemanin " al toor 21

children follow their parents without any dalil and accepts Islam.

or

"fa la tattabiul hawa" al nisa 135

here following hawa is prohibited. No Q of dalil is here.

Ittiba as ita'at:

"ittabioo ma unzila ilaykum" al araf

we are instructed to follow Quran

or

"qul in kuntum tuhibboonallaha fat tabioonee"

here we're instructed to follow the prophet s.a.w.

That makes no sense.

You confuse the lexical meaning of the word with the legislative one.

That is why you are confused. Ittibaa means to follow a position based on evidence.

You should do Ittibaa. You should learn the evidence. This is a matter of the Diin of Allaah.

Do not blindly follow. Learn the evidences of the position you follow.

 

[azc]

That makes no sense.

You confuse the lexical meaning of the word with the legislative one.

That is why you are confused. Ittibaa means to follow a position based on evidence.

You should do Ittibaa. You should learn the evidence. This is a matter of the Diin of Allaah.

Do not blindly follow. Learn the evidences of the position you follow.

I think I shouldn't waste my time with you.

 

[AbdurRahman.]

That websites seems very unreliable. Does a scholar or a layman run it?

Let's look at one hadith he has posted which actually deals with the issue of prayer and is not a general hadith he is trying to use:

Rasulullah (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) has clearly differentiated between the sitting posture of men and women in salat.

عن عبد الله بن عمر قال قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم إذا جلست المرأة في الصلوة وضعت فخذها على فخذها الاخرى وإذا سجدت الصقت بطنها في فخذيها كالستر ما يكون لها وان الله تعالى ينظر إليها ويقول يا ملائكتى اشهدكم انى قد غفرت لها​

Abdullah Bin Umar (radiyallaahu anhu) reports that the Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) said: "When a women sits in salaat, she should place the thighs of one leg upon the thighs of the other and when she makes sajda, she should attach her belly to her thigh so that it is as concealing as possible, for indeed Allah Ta'ala looks at her saying: 'O my angels, I make you witness that I have indeed forgiven her". (Al-Baihaqi, vol 2, pg 223, Idara Al-Taleefaat)


Let me put forth what scholars have said about that hadith.

al-BayhaQi said:

ضعيف لا يحتج بمثله

Weak, evidence is not established with the likes of it.

The very Imaam who recorded the narration is calling it weak.

I wonder why the author of the website omitted that fact.

al-BayhaQi reports two narrators in it who are weak

أبو مطيع

and

عطاء بن عجلان


He says they are weak.

Perhaps the author of the website should learn first and then make Wordpress blogs. May Allaah guide him.

this view is not just based on that hadith br. See azc's link. It is based on several sahih and hasan hadith. Several more that are only slightly weak so they back it up.

 

[AbdurRahman.]

Finally, the author tries to respond to objections of the ahl al-Hadith but does a very poor job.



It is understandable why a layman would not like to get into the discussion of a Mursal hadith. Even a layman knows that the scholars of hadith consider a mursal hadith weak. And to say what he says that the rijaal of the hadith are all good while avoiding the fact it is mursal shows he is ignorant.

He should simply admit that yes there are differences between the prayer of the two but the hadith used for it are weak. Simple. Honest. Straight to the point.

It's the fuqaha that decide wether a mursal hadith can be authentic for a prerequisite of a faqih is to be a hadith expert too.

 

[azc]

It's the fuqaha that decide wether a mursal hadith can be authentic for a prerequisite of a faqih is to be a hadith expert too.

I think we should rest this topic now.....

 

[Linkdeutscher]

Did you know alot of people criticized Ibn Taymiyya because of some of his views . Last time I checked Ibn Taymiyya (ra) was a Hanbali.

Wait - are you implying he was a muqallid of Imam Ahmad?

You need to educate yourself on the differences between taqleed of an imaam, taqleed of a madhhab named after an Imaam, and studying and adopting the usool of a maddhab to derive rulings.

At best Imam Ibn Tamiyyah fell into the last category.

 

[Linkdeutscher]

Did you know alot of people criticized Ibn Taymiyya because of some of his views . Last time I checked Ibn Taymiyya (ra) was a Hanbali.

Imaam Bukhaari is not a mujtahid because Ibn Taymiyyah said so, that was just an example.

He is one because he was, unless you want to say he wasn't.