Questions about the Bible/Christianity

[Yaqub Sulayman]

How does one become a Muslim? What happens to a persons past sins when one "reverts"?

1.) One becomes Muslim by proclaiming the Shahadah.

2.) If one converts to Islam, his/her past sins are forgiven.

 

[dougmusr]

Islam, like Christianity, teaches that Allah is Extremely Merciful and Forgiving. Yet, Islam also teaches that inspite of this, if I wrong someone, I will not be forgiven until and unless that person forgives me. Again, to me, this seems to me to be the just way.

I would interpret this to mean that a murderer would not choose Islam because there can be no forgiveness for murder since the victim is rarely able to offer forgiveness after the crime.

 

[dougmusr]

1.) One becomes Muslim by proclaiming the Shahadah.

2.) If one converts to Islam, his/her past sins are forgiven.

Munda Pakistani, does this unconditional forgiveness on reversion to Islam offend you?

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

why should it offend? it gives the person a chance to start new.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Merciful and forgiving? No. I think not.

This is the same God that sends you to hell with no chance of parole simply for not believing in him (or so the mythology claims). That isn't merciful. And it isn't forgiving, given the lack of being able to leave Hell once yer sent there.

 

[Muslim Knight]

Merciful and forgiving? No. I think not.

This is the same God that sends you to hell with no chance of parole simply for not believing in him (or so the mythology claims). That isn't merciful. And it isn't forgiving, given the lack of being able to leave Hell once yer sent there.

It is merciful to put up with one's arrogance saying that God does not exist, it is even forgiving to put up with it, giving him the chance to repent from the moment of birth to the moment of death. It is lifetime of giving chance to that person, giving him everything in life that he can enjoy, it is not merely ample time, it becomes undeserving.

If God isn't merciful or forgiving, He can strike down his ungrateful creature in a moment's twist. Yet God is forced to contend with that person's arrogance as long as he breathes. It is fitting that person's misery be compounded upon death and in the Hereafter.

Even then, in the Hadiths we learn that, a sinful Muslim who has in his heart, faith in God, even if that faith is the size of an atom, will be sent to Hell to purify his sins, afterwards by the grace of God, he will be granted salvation and Paradise. That, is the sign of the Merciful and Forgiving God.

 

[Trumble]

Yet God is forced to contend with that person's arrogance as long as he breathes. It is fitting that person's misery be compounded upon death and in the Hereafter.

WHY?! 'Forced to contend'?! Why would a perfect, benign being have a problem with the 'arrogance' of a human being? Why would it trouble Him in the slightest?

Why should misery be compounded? How can a perfect, benign being create misery, let alone compound it? Why didn't He create so that there is no misery at all, or arrogance come to that. He could have done.

What is He supposed to be 'forgiving' of? Being upset because people don't believe in Him? Is that His ego? Pride? A perfect being should have neither. It just makes no sense at all.

 

[Malaikah]

It is not about having an ego issue Trumble. It is about being Just. The reality of the situation is that God created us and this is what He intends to do- punish the disbelievers and reward the believers. It is not up to us to question that, once we realize it is the truth, we accept it and work towards achieving paradise and saving ourselves from the fire.

Merciful and forgiving? No. I think not.

This is the same God that sends you to hell with no chance of parole simply for not believing in him (or so the mythology claims). That isn't merciful. And it isn't forgiving, given the lack of being able to leave Hell once yer sent there.

Some people act like the being thrown in the fire 'just because' they don't believe in God is some how not just. Tell me, what do you know about justice. It was God who created the concept of justice and he knows best what is just and what is not!

There is more to disbelieving than just rejecting God- you also reject his messenger, you make life harder for the people who believe in Him, you live life indulging in what has been forbidden and following your desires rather than God's law, you cause corruption in the land by doing things that God prohibited because they are in fact harmful to humans and society, you are ungrateful to the one who created you, gave you your senses and food, clothes and shelter.

God is Merciful and Forgiving. It makes one wonder that there is such a crime being commit daily by millions of people, so extreme that not even the Merciful and Forgiving- God- will forgive it.

A warner has been sent to you- Muhammad pbuh. God gave you intellect to be able to tell for yourself that he is a plain warner of what comes after death.

On the day of Judgment, you will be given a fair trial and God will decide what to do with you. He shall deal with all with justice on that day.

I warn you against your arrogant attack on God. Be humble and sincere perhaps you will be guided to the truth.

 

[Jayda]

It is not about having an ego issue Trumble. It is about being Just. The reality of the situation is that God created us and this is what He intends to do- punish the disbelievers and reward the believers. It is not up to us to question that, once we realize it is the truth, we accept it and work towards achieving paradise and saving ourselves from the fire.

hola Malaikah,

this is something similar to a debate somebody posted on CF between an arab woman and a muslim man, she said "islam divided the world into muslim and nonbeliever" i do not think she meant it in a flattering way...

what do you think of this statement, is it accurate based on what the purpose of life is according to islam (as you posted)?

it is something i have thought about...

gracias

*mods please remove this if it causes any offense*

 

[Muslim Knight]

WHY?! 'Forced to contend'?! Why would a perfect, benign being have a problem with the 'arrogance' of a human being? Why would it trouble Him in the slightest?

God created a person and gives him free will to choose whether to believe God exists or not, and laid out signs for him to look for God. Yet he flouts rules, ignores those signs, do bad harmful things unto others. It would not trouble Him the slightest (I have not said it would harm Him the slightest) but unto others, whom He created out of His Mercy. No, He isn't harmed the slightest. If He so willed, He can smite that person down in an instant. Like I said before, it is out of His Mercy that He extends that person time on this world that he may repent before his last breath.

Why should misery be compounded? How can a perfect, benign being create misery, let alone compound it? Why didn't He create so that there is no misery at all, or arrogance come to that. He could have done.

With God, perfect and benign cannot be used in the same sentence in the context of Islam. He can do whatever He wants. And that includes not having to follow what you or I might think He should do. After all, He is God and not some person. What He does or intends to do, He tells us in the Quran.

What is He supposed to be 'forgiving' of? Being upset because people don't believe in Him? Is that His ego? Pride? A perfect being should have neither. It just makes no sense at all.

How could a perfect being should not have ego or pride? In the Islamic context, He is after all, the Creator and Cherisher of the World. If every atom in your body, every molecule of air you breathe in, every grain of rice you eat, all of them He created, God is entitled to that ego and pride. The world and everything in it are His. If you can so much create but one fly out of nothingness, you are too. But on the contrary, He stresses out to us , 113 times at the beginning of each Surah in the Quran, of His qualities being Infinitely Good and Merciful.

 

[Pygoscelis]

I think many muslims here (christians too regarding their faith) are under the impression that non believers "reject" their God. This isn't really true. Non believers do not believe in your God. It isn't like we know he exists and decide to disobey him or rail against him. To us that would make as much sense as railing against something else fictional, like Odin, Ra, or Santa Claus.

The distinction is important and I don't think the theistic mind often appreciates it.

Your saying that the nonbeliever had a lifetime to change his mind and come to Allah simply does not compute to a non believer. It is like saying you have a lifetime to change your mind and come to Zozar, the God I just made up, who happens to exist and will punish you if you defy him.

Some people act like the being thrown in the fire 'just because' they don't believe in God is some how not just. Tell me, what do you know about justice. It was God who created the concept of justice and he knows best what is just and what is not!

God didn't create the concept of justice. Man did. Then man created God. Yes, I realize I can not prove my claim, but neither can you.

God is Merciful and Forgiving.

I disagree. The concept of God you speak of is neither. Nor is he kind or benevolent. He is tyranical and domineering.

On the day of Judgment, you will be given a fair trial and God will decide what to do with you. He shall deal with all with justice on that day.

So you say. But what if its Zozar? Then we're both in trouble. Or what if its the Christian redition of God? Or the Mormon? Or what if the Jehovas Witnesses are right?

And what if God is more upset at you worshiping a false God than worshiping no God at all?

[qoute]
I warn you against your arrogant attack on God. Be humble and sincere perhaps you will be guided to the truth.[/QUOTE]

You need to understand that one can not attack a fictional being. Somebody who doesn't believe in a given God can not attack that God, they can only attack the concept of that God being presented to them. You may find Lex Luthor to be the embodyment of everything bad about humanity, but you can not arrogantly attack him, because he doesn't exist. From the nonbelievers point of view this is no different.

And when the concept of God presented shows injustice or immorality, which to them exists independent of this particlar concept of God, they will notice it.

 

[glo]

why should it offend? it gives the person a chance to start new.

Greeting, Tayyaba.

I believe dougmusr is referring to this question by Munda Pakistani:

Extending that, if someone rapes my daughter, and escapes punishment in this world, is it fair that he should get away scot-free in the Hereafter as well and end up in the same Heaven as me just by saying and believing in a few sentences? Again, looking at it from the rapists point of view, it's all warm and fuzzy, but from my point of view, it's extremely unjust.

Christianity teaches that when you commit your life to God (i.e. become a Christian), all past sins and wrongs are wiped out. Munda Pakistani seems to find that concept 'unfair' ...

The point dougmusr is making ( and I agree with him), is that Islam teaches the same:
When you say shadaha and become a Muslim, all past sins (no matter how grave, even rape and murder) are forgiven and the slate is wiped clean.
Are we correct in thinking so?

If we are, then Christianity and Islam teach the same in this matter, and if Munda Pakistani finds the Christian teaching unfair, then the same applies to the Islamic teaching ...

I hope this makes sense.

 

[Pygoscelis]

With God, perfect and benign cannot be used in the same sentence in the context of Islam. He can do whatever He wants. And that includes not having to follow what you or I might think He should do. After all, He is God and not some person.

This is what troubles me most about the three monotheistic religions. The notion that whatever God does is Just and Right BECAUSE he is God. Please correct me if that is not the notion being presented here.

I have seen it elsewhere.

It is frightening.

It shows a complete lack of morality independent from the religious belief. I have a very hard time believing that even the most hard core religionists could have no morals independent of their God beliefs. Surely even they have some independent values. Don't they?

I do get nervous about this when I see them killing people and doing horrible things in the name of their God. Maybe they don't... that is a very scary thought. For if true, then all that has to happen is for them to be convinced that God wants them to do a horrible act, and they'll do it.

 

[Muslim Knight]

This is what troubles me most about the three monotheistic religions. The notion that whatever God does is Just and Right BECAUSE he is God. Please correct me if that is not the notion being presented here.

I have seen it elsewhere.

It is frightening.

It shows a complete lack of morality independent from the religious belief. I have a very hard time believing that even the most hard core religionists could have no morals independent of their God beliefs. Surely even they have some independent values. Don't they?

I do get nervous about this when I see them killing people and doing horrible things in the name of their God. Maybe they don't... that is a very scary thought. For if true, then all that has to happen is for them to be convinced that God wants them to do a horrible act, and they'll do it.

I was responding to Trumble's notion that God as a Perfect being is Benign. I am not implying that He is free to do whatever He wants that He will want to be tyrannical or domineering. A very powerful human may be inclined to do so but not God. It is quite the opposite. I am saying that He is not Benign as opposed to being active in managing the universe. The Islamic context is that God is actively managing the universe that without Him, the world would simply fall apart and eventually cease to exist. To say God is Perfect Being who is Benign is the concept of Agnosticism, wherein Agnostics believe God exists but does not participate in the affairs of His creatures, including the world. In Islam, we believe that God is actively managing the world in the sense that He continuously arranges things to make the universe work, He creates routes for the food to go into our way that we may eventually eat it.

God is Merciful and Forgiving imply that that out of His Mercy He created us all. If His Wrath exceeds His Mercy there would be continuous state of destruction and chaos. His desire to destroy will overcome His desire to create. There will be chaos and destruction everywhere up to a point where everything will cease to exist. In contrast, He says in the Quran and in the Hadiths that His Mercy overwhelms His Wrath, thus enabling the world to exist because of His Mercy. His Wrath He only directed to those who are against Him and deny His existence and Will. Evenso, out of His Mercy He extends the period for those to repent and return to Him.

 

[Malaikah]

this is something similar to a debate somebody posted on CF between an arab woman and a muslim man, she said "islam divided the world into muslim and nonbeliever" i do not think she meant it in a flattering way...

what do you think of this statement, is it accurate based on what the purpose of life is according to islam (as you posted)?

Hi Jayda.

No offense at all. It would be rather strange is Islam did not differentiate between Muslim and non-Muslim.

Islam isn't like other religions. Islam is more than a religion, it is a political system too. A system that governs a country according to the laws of Islam. If there was no differentiation between a Muslim and a non-Muslim then non-Muslim would be expected to follow Islamic law in the exactly the same way as Muslims and so they would have no religious freedom! However non-Muslim do have religious freedom and to have this freedom there has to be a recognition of the fact that come citizen are Muslim and some are not.

Honestly, what do people expect. Muslims live this life not for the sake of this life but for the sake of the next life- to please God, enter paradise and save themselves from the hell fire. And we would love to save as many people as we can with us. The division in Islam has nothing to do with nationality or something superficial like that, but the division is based on religion, something that actually matters.

Islam creates a special bond between the Muslims. Perhaps the arab women was referring to this when she said Islam differentiates? Muslims have their own moral code and way of life the non-Muslims have their own. We don't expect you to take up our code and live by it, so this means there will be a difference when it comes to the way we deal with each other.

I can't answer the question directly because the statement is way to general.

Lastly, if she meant about how only Muslims can go to paradise and the non-Muslims will go to hell, well the concept is exactly the same in your own religion Jayda so I don't think I need to explain anything here.

Hope that helps.

 

[dougmusr]

Islam isn't like other religions. Islam is more than a religion, it is a political system too. A system that governs a country according to the laws of Islam. If there was no differentiation between a Muslim and a non-Muslim then non-Muslim would be expected to follow Islamic law in the exactly the same way as Muslims and so they would have no religious freedom! However non-Muslim do have religious freedom and to have this freedom there has to be a recognition of the fact that come citizen are Muslim and some are not.

Honestly, what do people expect. Muslims live this life not for the sake of this life but for the sake of the next life- to please God, enter paradise and save themselves from the hell fire. And we would love to save as many people as we can with us. The division in Islam has nothing to do with nationality or something superficial like that, but the division is based on religion, something that actually matters.

As a Christian, I feel that God only accepts those into paradise that make a personal commitment to Him according to Romans 10:9 "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved". I do not feel that anyone can be saved by establishing a political structure of laws and punishments which deter ungodly behavior. I also maintain that there is no religious freedom in any country which punishes Christians for sharing their faith in the public square.

 

[Malaikah]

I do not feel that anyone can be saved by establishing a political structure of laws and punishments which deter ungodly behavior.

Who said in Islam we are only saved by having politics, laws and punishments? (If you honestly believe that then you understand nothing about Islam, there is much, much more to it than that.)

The whole point of having a law is for stability of the society! How can a society be run with a law?! IMPOSSIBLE! It would be corruptions beyond belief! :uuh:

Most, if not all, countries on earth have a legal system, and a way to punish criminals. The only difference between Islamic law and the law of other countries is that Islamic law is based on divine revelation, and other laws are not, they are man-made laws.

Why do people find it so strange that we have law in Islam?:? God gave us this guidance on how to a run a society and we should be grateful for that. Even of other religions do not have a legal system, the members of that faith still have to rely on a legal system (i.e. that of the country they live in) to make it through life!

The only difference is that our legal system is divine.

 

[dougmusr]

Who said in Islam we are only saved by having politics, laws and punishments? (If you honestly believe that then you understand nothing about Islam)

Admittedly my knowledge of Islam is lacking, and what I do know comes from discussions on this forum and in reading a translation of the Quran.

Muslims live this life not for the sake of this life but for the sake of the next life- to please God, enter paradise and save themselves from the hell fire.

In Christianity, people are saved from Hell by God through Christ. Your statement indicates that Islam believes you achieve paradise by "saving yourself".

And we would love to save as many people as we can with us.

Exactly how do you save another person from Hell? It would be my interpretation of your prior statements that an Islamic political system in fact assists people in achieving paradise by discouraging behavior that displeases God. I have seen posts on this forum that if a person's sin is punished on earth, God does not punish the sin in Heaven, sort of like double jeapordy in a court of law. So I would also have to take that to mean that an Islamic system of justice is meant to assist entry to Paradise.

 

[Malaikah]

Yes what you have said is correct. But why do you find that strange?:?

Is it different in Christianity? Do ALL Christians go straight to heaven even if they sinned in this life and did not repent and never were punished for it in this life? (If that is the case, where is the justice?)

One correction- sins are never punished in paradise, but only in this life, the grave, on the day of judgement or in hell. Paradise is nothing but good.

 

[dougmusr]

One correction- sins are never punished in paradise, but only in this life, the grave, on the day of judgement or in hell. Paradise is nothing but good.

Of course there won't be any sin in Heaven, I meant prior to entry.

Is it different in Christianity? Do ALL Christians go straight to heaven even if they sinned in this life and did not repent and never were punished for it in this life?

The short answer is yes. The longer answer is a bit more complex. As a Christian, I believe that God is Holy and man is sinful. It would be impossible for a sinful man to understand fully the Holiness of God, and therefore, in spite of our best efforts, we will always fall short of His requirements because we are incapable of comprehending them, and we can not repent of something we do not perceive. I believe one can sin and not be aware of it until some time in the future. So I would say that all people die with a sin debt which has not been paid. I believe the Bible teaches that one's sins are forgiven prior to death if they are to be forgiven at all. The concept of being cleansed of sin following death is foreign to the Bible.