Question For The Non-muslims

[Trumble]

So my question is, what are the reason(s) that you have not accepted Islam?

I found a spiritual path that makes both intellectual and experiential sense to me. The Abrahamic faiths do neither and are, in my opinion, clearly the fabrication of one or more human beings. They may well have had some, perhaps exceptional, mystical insight, but that's as far as it went.

I see no evidence of the existence of a God (all 'watch-maker' style arguments end up with the "so what created God" philosophical dead-end) and plenty to the contrary. As I've said before the 'Problem of Evil' is the killer for me; I'm fully aware of all the responses and find them totally unconvincing compared with obvious and simple answer to that problem, that there is no God, at least as Jews, Christians and muslims perceive God to be.

I simply cannot believe that if there were a totally benevolent, omnipotent, omniscient God that the world would be as it is. It makes no sense; it's obvious it makes no sense, and all the stuff about an afterlife, tests and "God moves in mysterious ways" just seems a way of plastering over a huge logical crack with faith based waffle. I've nothing against 'faith based waffle' as such - Buddhists aren't immune from it either, but introduce that into the equation and I see no reason to favour any religion over any other except in choosing the one that makes the most sense to each individual.

 

[Pygoscelis]

After you die you'll feel the same as before you were born.

You won't.

There won't be a you to feel anything.

If it sounds scary, it isn't. We literally have nothing to fear from death - for death is nothing.

Now dying on the other hand, that doesn't look fun.

 

[Harrumph]

One reason i am not a Muslim or have not considerd becoming a Muslim is the country and culture i was brought up in(UK,Christianity).I had very little experience or knowledge of the Muslim way of life except for a few lessons at school which dealt with all religions.As i have got older and learnt more,read more and understood more of the world and life in general i have moved away from organised religion,i have respect for people of faith and would not critisize people for thier beliefs,but i see religion as a method to control people,i could not live my life by the laws and ideals written by people hundreds/thousands of years ago.

It is my belief that the soul dies with the body,all of us will die one day(hopefully when we are old,and naturally)i prefer to live this life the way i feel is right rather than be told how to live so when i die i wont go to the wrong place and be punished.

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"The other thing I observed in some replies is that some of the non muslims believe that some of the islamic practices are unnecessary/redundant. I would like to know if those practices, by any means, have repelled them away from the good teachings of Islam. I would appreciate any replies to these questions."

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ABWAN,im not going to get into a debate about this because i dont see any use,we will never agree and i dont want to fight with or upset people,i will just say that i find ALL religion has certain teachings or laws that are outdated and are at odds with what i believe to be right and just in todays society.

 

[Eesa Abdullah]

...I for one, has always been on one side and I don't know/felt the 'other side'. But based on what I see happening in this world, namely, innocent little kids getting killed, violence all over the world, cheating, unfair treatment of people etc etc, I find it hard to believe that those perpetrators would just die without getting their deserved punishment. I find it hard to believe that an innocent little kid burnt to death would meet the same end as the one who burnt the kid. In my ideal world, I would want anyone who has done even a little harm to see its punishment. That's what makes me believe in an 'after life' to settle things....

bismillah

assalaamu 'alaikum,

I would agree.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings Abwan,

You make some interesting points.

Obvious question I wanted to ask the non-muslims was already asked - which was what do non muslims believe will happen after death. And some of the responses were interesting and it makes perfect sense that they believe in the death of soul along with the body.

I also agree with this. When we die, we die - that's it. There is no evidence to believe in an afterlife whatsoever.

I for one, has always been on one side and I don't know/felt the 'other side'. But based on what I see happening in this world, namely, innocent little kids getting killed, violence all over the world, cheating, unfair treatment of people etc etc, I find it hard to believe that those perpetrators would just die without getting their deserved punishment. I find it hard to believe that an innocent little kid burnt to death would meet the same end as the one who burnt the kid. In my ideal world, I would want anyone who has done even a little harm to see its punishment. That's what makes me believe in an 'after life' to settle things.

So your belief is based on wishful thinking. I would like to believe that I'll find ten million pounds tomorrow with a note attached saying 'This is for you, czgibson!', but that doesn't mean it's going to happen, and it certainly doesn't mean I'm going to change the way I live my life based on the assumption that it will. That would be irrational, would it not?

The other thing I observed in some replies is that some of the non muslims believe that some of the islamic practices are unnecessary/redundant. I would like to know if those practices, by any means, have repelled them away from the good teachings of Islam. I would appreciate any replies to these questions.

I can see sense in some Islamic teachings:

I think that Islamic monotheism is very pure, and certainly more logical than the Christian trinity, which even priests have told me makes absolutely no logical sense.

I think the principles of Islamic banking could be more ethical than Western ones, and deserve serious consideration. After all, taking interest used to be a sin in Christian lands (the sin of usury), before the rise of modern bourgeois capitalism.

I think that the devotion that many Muslims show to their faith is admirable, even though I think it is ill-founded.

I also like the way that Muslims look after each other as part of a global family. There is no doubt in my mind that Muslims feel more connected with their community at large than people in Western societies do with each other.

None of the Islamic rulings that I think are senseless (such as the prohibitions on pork, alcohol, music, flirting and so on) have prevented me from becoming attracted to Islam, since I am dissuaded purely by the fact that I am convinced there is no god. However, if I was a theist, those rulings certainly would deter me from taking the shahada.

I would also be deterred by having to believe that the Qur'an is the direct word of god. I genuinely find it impossible to understand how anyone can believe that that is the case, and I am sure that I would feel the same way even if I did believe in god.

Peace

 

[TABS19]

When I come onto this forum I come with the hope of learning about Islam and hopefully reverting. But the more I read into Islam the more I find things that I diasgree with.

I do believe in God, but I feel that religion divides people. As someone else said on this thread, religion is like having a set of rules so that we behave and distinguish between right and wrong.

Saying that I am from a Sikh family and my day to day beliefs are reflected from the teachings of the Guru Granth Sahib.

 

[Eesa Abdullah]

bismillah

That is interesting that you say that Tabs 19, because in a nutshell I felt like that.

 

[HIJABI***]

The Quran very clearly says that the disbelievers have no sound basis for their denial of life after death. It is based on pure conjecture:

And they say, “There is not but our worldly life; we die and live (i.e. some people die and others live, replacing them) and nothing destroys us except time.” And they have of that no knowledge; they are only assuming. And when Our verses are recited to them as clear evidences, their argument is only that they say, “Bring [back] our forefathers, if you should be truthful.” Say, “God causes you to live, then causes you to die; then He will assemble you for the Day of Resurrection, about which there is no doubt,” but most of the people do not know. (Quran, 45:24-26)

 

[AbuAbdallah]

Salaam,
There seems to be many different people with many different beliefs. So I think it will be easier if we broke it down topic by topic.
First Topic: Are we in agreement that there is One Supreme Lord who created us?

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

The Quran very clearly says that the disbelievers have no sound basis for their denial of life after death. It is based on pure conjecture:

It doesn't matter how clearly the Qur'an says it, if it's wrong, it's wrong. In any case, I would dispute the view that the Qur'an is clear on this point, or much else.

Your use of the word conjecture is unusual here; it is actually believers in the afterlife who are putting forward a conjecture (viz. that the afterlife exists). It is non-believers who are denying that conjecture. The burden of proof lies on the person who affirms the existence of something, not those who ask for evidence.

The sound basis that non-believers have is called 'reasonable doubt'.

Peace

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

First Topic: Are we in agreement that there is One Supreme Lord who created us?

I think the answer to that is fairly obvious if you read through the thread.

Peace

 

[cali dude]

When I come onto this forum I come with the hope of learning about Islam and hopefully reverting. But the more I read into Islam the more I find things that I diasgree with.

I do believe in God, but I feel that religion divides people. As someone else said on this thread, religion is like having a set of rules so that we behave and distinguish between right and wrong.

Saying that I am from a Sikh family and my day to day beliefs are reflected from the teachings of the Guru Granth Sahib.

I'd rather be spiritually wise than religious.

 

[wilberhum]

Abwan

I believe in an 'after life' to settle things.

I think that is one of the appeals and reasons the concept of an ‘after life’ was created. Nice thought, but I don’t think it exists.

I would like to know if those practices, by any means, have repelled them away from the good teachings of Islam.

I don’t think rituals have any significant impact on the reasons I don’t believe. It is much more based on what I do not consider ‘good teachings’.

HIJABI
This is exactly what I was addressing in post #34.

AbuAbdallah

Are we in agreement that there is One Supreme Lord who created us?

Not really. I think there is the possibility that god does not exits.

 

[ABWAN]

Originally Posted by czgibson
I also agree with this. When we die, we die - that's it. There is no evidence to believe in an afterlife whatsoever.

Up until 1492 (or 1421 as some may claim), there was no evidence that there was a whole continent on the other side of atlantic. Up until recently there were 9 planets. But things have changed recently. Some scientific 'facts' change in course of time. But 'after life' is something no one would know until they die and experience it themself. The same way as you claim there is no evidence for an 'afterlife', I could also claim there is no evidence to deny that and you saying - "when we die, we die". From what I know, there is no evidence to prove that the soul dies with the body

Originally Posted by czgibson
So your belief is based on wishful thinking. I would like to believe that I'll find ten million pounds tomorrow with a note attached saying 'This is for you, czgibson!', but that doesn't mean it's going to happen, and it certainly doesn't mean I'm going to change the way I live my life based on the assumption that it will. That would be irrational, would it not?

I see your point (as an atheist) and it makes sense. But for those who believe in God and still deny any religion or after life, it wouldnt make sense (at least to me). on the lighter side, I can certainly assure you that the way you live would *certainly* change if you do find 10 million pounds.

TABS19
I do believe in God, but I feel that religion divides people.

I don't think anything is needed to divide people. Difference of opinion is inherent in human nature. Blaming it on religion, I feel, is merely an excuse. Lets have a new island with just a handful of people (or a new thread in this forum with only atheists posting messages) who dont follow any religion. Do you think they would live peacefully?

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Up until 1492 (or 1421 as some may claim), there was no evidence that there was a whole continent on the other side of atlantic.

There was to the people who were already living there! Also, people in, say, Europe weren't living their lives on the assumption that the New World existed or would be discovered, so I don't think the analogy quite fits.

Up until recently there were 9 planets. But things have changed recently.

True. Essentially that is a matter of scientific classification, although new astronomical bodies have been discovered too. Until very recently there was no standard, agreed definition of 'planet'. Again, people weren't basing their lives on the belief that previously undiscovered (or unclassified) planets existed.

Some scientific 'facts' change in course of time.

Of course. That is why science is the best tool humanity currently has for investigating the universe - it is adaptable, and scientific beliefs are only maintained if there is lots of evidence to support them, or if no better explanation has yet been found. If something you've long held to be true turned out to be wrong, why carry on believing it?

But 'after life' is something no one would know until they die and experience it themself.

Exactly. So, how many eye-witness reports do we have on the afterlife? None. Even assuming an afterlife exists, anything anybody says about what it is like is pure conjecture.

The same way as you claim there is no evidence for an 'afterlife', I could also claim there is no evidence to deny that and you saying - "when we die, we die".

The fact that there is no evidence to support the idea of its existence means that it is reasonable to doubt its existence. I'm not saying I can prove there is no afterlife, it's simply my belief based on the fact that there's no evidence to support it whatsoever. In fact, it's difficult to see how evidence for it could even theoretically be obtained.

From what I know, there is no evidence to prove that the soul dies with the body

The 'soul' is a very amorphous concept with various meanings, so I'm not sure it's appropriate to talk about evidence in relation to it. Is there 'evidence' that the 'soul' even exists?

I see your point (as an atheist) and it makes sense. But for those who believe in God and still deny any religion or after life, it wouldnt make sense (at least to me).

It depends what sort of god someone believed in. I think it's easy to see that it could make logical sense for someone to believe in a god but not to believe in organised religion. If their god was an indifferent, non-interventionist god, then it could be seen as rationally consistent not to believe in an afterlife as well.

Ultimately, we have no evidence for god's existence either, so any claims made about him are also pure conjecture.

on the lighter side, I can certainly assure you that the way you live would *certainly* change if you do find 10 million pounds.

It definitely would.

Peace

 

[AbuAbdallah]

Would we all agree that God is the sole Creator, and above all imperfections?

 

[wilberhum]

Would we all agree that God is the sole Creator, and above all imperfections?

Yes, if he exists.
But since there is no proof, all we can do is guess and try to apply logic.
One could also believe god it pure evil and present facts to support that logic.

 

[Skavau]

Would we all agree that God is the sole Creator, and above all imperfections?

I'm not sure you've been reading this thread properly. A good majority of the non-muslims posting have been atheist or agnostic. There is no agreement here that any God is the creator of everything.

Anyway, my reasons for disbelief in Islam:

1. It is a faith-based system.
Like other belief systems, it is based upon faith. It asserts that God, (the Islamic idea of God) exists based on faith. It is like believing in a flying teapot around Jupiter, or the belief that Zeus made the world. There is no empirical evidence and therefore it is unreasonable to believe in something based on faith.

2. Ritualistic Nature
The Ritualistic Nature of Islam, to which I see leaves nothing to be admired. Ramadam to me seems a health risk more than anything else and a total disruption to any normal sleeping pattern. The same applies with Islamic Prayers. I do not see any purpose in these.

3. Worship is unneccessary
If the Islamic God exists, as proposed by Islam - then I see no reasonable purpose for worshipping it.

4. Moral Issues
The idea of covering a woman as compulsory (by some) or encouraged to me is not necessary. I see nothing wrong with Homosexuality or Lesbianism. The manner of beating your wife as being acceptable (regardless of it being tapping and in the last-case scenario or not), violence is uneccessary. I do not accept them.

 

[AbuAbdallah]

But since there is no proof, all we can do is guess and try to apply logic.
One could also believe god it pure evil and present facts to support that logic.

I feel that our existence here is more than enough proof.
Is it by chance that:

Earth is the only planet with conditions just perfect enough to be able to sustain humans.

Humans are far more intelligent than any other creature known to man, no other creature even comes close, no missing link?

A smile is known worldwide for happiness, a tear is known worldwide for sadness.

Just look all around you.
Had the molecular structure and the hydrogen bonds of water been a little different, then no life would survive on earth.

Had the Earth's orbit been changed just by a matter of degrees, then we would either freeze or burn to death.

Who tells the biological cells how to operate, did a mitochondria or a nucleus or DNA do it's specified job just by chance?

When I look at the world around us it is more then enough proof just through the perfection of how everything operates.

Just look at how different we humans are from the animals. This should hopefully wipe out any if's.

 

[KAding]

There was already a thread similar to this one, with lots of interesting responses:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/34449-why-not-islam.html

My response:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/34449-why-not-islam-2.html#post612014