Question For The Non-muslims

[Pygoscelis]

This thread is confusingme now. If you are an atheist why does any of this above matter at all? If you don't believe Gods exist, then the Quran is nothing but folk tales, just like "how the eagle got its wings".

You don't need any reason not to be a muslim. That's the default position. You'd need a reason TO be a muslim, and I certainly don't see any.

 

[sojourner]

36 years of believing that Jesus did die on the cross and rose from the dead 3 days later keeps me from accepting Islam.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

This thread is confusingme now. If you are an atheist why does any of this above matter at all? If you don't believe Gods exist, then the Quran is nothing but folk tales, just like "how the eagle got its wings".

Not quite. The Qur'an is the product of a certain set of historical circumstances, and it continues to influence history, just like any other important text. The idea that it came from god is of course a 'folk tale' to you and me, but I like to explore the reasons why people believe in it, because I find it extraordinary that they do.

You don't need any reason not to be a muslim. That's the default position. You'd need a reason TO be a muslim, and I certainly don't see any.

I agree with you. But people have asked the question, so I'm giving my answers.

Peace

 

[rebelishaulman]

Let's not forget that the minority of Muslims are Arabs, so how do you account for the non-arab countries?

The idol worshiping nations spread just as fast outside there enclaves where ever they started.

 

[جوري]

what is so historical about suret Al Kawthar (108), or the Traducer (104), or Al-Gashya (88)? just to name a few?

How can the Quran address both things known and unknown-- in different fields be they "coincidentally" accurate or otherwise?

... how can the Quran with its historical compilation speak of cities just now discovered that weren't even on the map during the time of Christ-- E.x--the newly found city of ERUM sura (89)

what gain is in it for prophet Mohammed (PBUH) to put seemingly ridiculous things unknown to the Arabs of the time in "his" book?
Did he enjoy persecution and sleeping on an empty stomach? being ousted from his home Mecca or being persecuted by his own tribe?--

should your ad hominem prove that someone (a brilliant human) whispered it in the messenger's ear-- Why isn't this other someone known to us with his amazing grip on Arabic-- masterful enough that no two suras are identical either stylistically or textually?

I can say that with conviction by the way because I do speak and write Arabic fluently-- I can assert to that fact that it isn't something you can just pick up on, reading a transliteration of the noble quran and we have demonstrated earlier your ignorance in that field!

Some people might find the reasons you don't believe as absurd and extraordinary as yours of why they believe...

Either way it is utterly inconsequential to me what you do or don't do on your private time. I haven't started this topic and wouldn't have replied, if I didn't find your comments earlier both absurd and grossly inaccurate!

To me a plethora of ill thought statements based on a shady 3rd rate web research, personal and psychological experience, are not an adequate explanation for this "Historical circumstance" that is so appreciated by ignorant Arabs to whom the very first verse of the very first sura mandated

اقْرَأْ بِاسْمِ رَبِّكَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ {1}​

[Pickthal 96:1] Read: In the name of thy Lord Who createth,!--

 

[AbuAbdallah]

The idol worshiping nations spread just as fast outside there enclaves where ever they started.

?????What does that have to do with it spreading in Arab countries because they were ignorant????

 

[جوري]

This thread is confusingme now. If you are an atheist why does any of this above matter at all? If you don't believe Gods exist, then the Quran is nothing but folk tales, just like "how the eagle got its wings".

You don't need any reason not to be a muslim. That's the default position. You'd need a reason TO be a muslim, and I certainly don't see any.

That is very illogical approach!

MAP=CO X TPR
might not mean anything to you, and I'll go out on a limb and venture into saying you probably don't even know what it stands for! but in that formula is a delicate balance that keep you homeostatically stable. Should any of the above variables cease to function properly, it will lead to your eventual demise! Your unawareness of it, isn't an indication of its unimportance, or its non-existence, rather an indication of your ignorance! You take for granted that things work the way they do... you don't reflect on how or why? ( & I don't just mean in the human body, I mean the entire universe).

 

[Pygoscelis]

That is very illogical approach!

MAP=CO X TPR
might not mean anything to you, and I'll go out on a limb and venture into saying you probably don't even know what it stands for! but in that formula is a delicate balance that keep you homeostatically stable. Should any of the above variables cease to function properly, it will lead to your eventual demise! Your unawareness of it, isn't an indication of its unimportance, or its non-existence, rather an indication of your ignorance! You take for granted that things work the way they do... you don't reflect on how or why? ( & I don't just mean in the human body, I mean the entire universe).

I don't see how what you have posted here relates to what you quoted and were responding to.

I wrote that the default position is to be non-muslim and that you should require evidence to believe mulsim claims to be true and thus become a muslim. How does this in anyway relate to homeostatic equations?

And you are right tha I take for granted that things work the way they do, and sometimes I do reflect on how and why. But it isn't something to obsess over. We can research these things at our liesure, some of the answers may lead to useful technology. And I am comfortable admitting ignorance in the meantime.

 

[جوري]

I don't see how what you have posted here relates to what you quoted and were responding to..

what I wrote is a response to your and I quote "then the Quran is nothing but folk tales, just like "how the eagle got its wings"."
and not to previous posts. I think that should be fairly obvious?

I wrote that the default position is to be non-muslim and that you should require evidence to believe mulsim claims to be true and thus become a muslim. How does this in anyway relate to homeostatic equations?.

And I actually disagree with that sentiment. The default in fact is to believe in a higher power, we are all born on fitrah and born very needy (How does a baby know to seek milk when its higher reticular function isn't yet fully developed?) it is innate to want to worship just like it is innate to want to eat. ... being an Atheist is NOT the norm! You are a minority who gave some thought to religion, and convinced yourselves that it is fairy tale... be that as it may You actually have to give some thought to not believing which in and of itself a belief "that G-D doesn't exist" but you can't prove it any more than those who believe can prove to you that he does!
& lastly, being a Muslim fulfils spiritual Homeostasis.. we aren't composed of just tissue.

And you are right tha I take for granted that things work the way they do, and sometimes I do reflect on how and why. But it isn't something to obsess over. We can research these things at our liesure, some of the answers may lead to useful technology. And I am comfortable admitting ignorance in the meantime.

Good to know! :threadclo :threadclo :threadclo

 

[Trumble]

) it is innate to want to worship just like it is innate to want to eat

I have no innate "want to worship" and neither does anybody else who doesn't 'believe' already. It's purely cultural. If you are brought up in an environment of worshippers you might develop a tendency to worship but if you brought up among atheists the thought would never occur to you. That can change either way depending on your own experiences, of course but in no way is 'belief in a higher power' some sort of default position.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

What about the first community ever to exist? You think they jus came up with it out of nowhere? You would prolly say something like, they were lonely and needed somethin to believe in i suppose?

 

[جوري]

I have no innate "want to worship" and neither does anybody else who doesn't 'believe' already. It's purely cultural. If you are brought up in an environment of worshippers you might develop a tendency to worship but if you brought up among atheists the thought would never occur to you. That can change either way depending on your own experiences, of course but in no way is 'belief in a higher power' some sort of default position.

Worship doesn't have to be that of a higher power. People use substitutes and yes it is a need! it can be worship of money, worship of worldly goods, worship of fame, worship of power, worship of serenity... People will find a substitute... Just look around you... People will make up their own purpose. Everyone needs to understand and find a reason for their existence!

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

What about the first community ever to exist? You think they jus came up with it out of nowhere? You would prolly say something like, they were lonely and needed somethin to believe in i suppose?

Every primitive community in the ancient past had its own god(s). Pre-scientific people needed to find some way of explaining the mysteries of the world they found themselves in. They also needed a moral authority to help keep their society well-behaved so that it didn't tear itself apart.

What is innate in human beings is not the need to believe in god, but two other needs: to explain things to themselves and to survive.

Peace

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

So its not more just with thiests, its also with atheists, is it not? Dont u think atheism has its own set of beliefs like an organized religion. regardless of what the beliefs are, u still have them. And its also looking down on people who are part of a religion. At least with some atheists who have dogmas of their own.

 

[Grace Seeker]

salaam,

From my experiences with non-Muslims, most of them usually have one or two main reasons why the aren't Muslim. Surprisingly, these reasons can be misconceptions sometimes.

So my question is, what are the reason(s) that you have not accepted Islam?

Because I believe that the Bible is true when it teaches about Jesus sacrficial death as an atonement for sin and his resurrection from the grave as a real event, an event means by which God has cancelled the power of sin and death in the lives of all who believe in Jesus. I understand that if I were to accept Islam I would have to deny these events as being true and I am unwilling to do so.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

So its not more just with thiests, its also with atheists, is it not?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.

Dont u think atheism has its own set of beliefs like an organized religion. regardless of what the beliefs are, u still have them.

Perhaps, but it doesn't have nearly as many beliefs as most religions. Atheism can be summed up as 'the belief that there is no god'. That's pretty much it. No rituals, no prayers, no dietary laws, no dogmas etc. Atheists share that belief, but individually they may believe all kinds of different things.

And its also looking down on people who are part of a religion.

Being an atheist necessarily entails believing that people who are adherents of theistic religions are wrong. That doesn't give anyone an excuse to be rude to people who believe in god, though.

Peace

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

But as its claimed that religion is the cause of all world problems. If everybody was atheist, do u really think the world would be a better place?

Being an atheist necessarily entails believing that people who are adherents of theistic religions are wrong. That doesn't give anyone an excuse to be rude to people who believe in god, though.

Heres where i would like to make a point. As u have said that you believe any theist is wrong just like we think atheists r not right. But that doesnt mean ushould be rude regardless of ones owns beliefs. There are always people who go to the extreme, so its silly to blame the religion, when in entirety its the persons own fault for not understanding. What about the Soviet Union? They were not theists, they were atheists with their own set of ideologies. So can I blame atheism for all wars? I think it was the Soviet Union. Dont quite remember.

Oh cruddd, I went off topic lol. My bad.

Peace

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

But as its claimed that religion is the cause of all world problems. If everybody was atheist, do u really think the world would be a better place?

I don't claim religion is the cause of all the world's problems. I think stupidity is the cause of many of them, though. I also believe that some people's brain power is actually stunted by certain types of religious belief. So there is a link, in my view, but it's a fairly indirect one.

If everybody was atheist, would the world be a better place? Perhaps, but I really couldn't say. I assume there would still be plenty of morons about to mess things up for everybody else!

Heres where i would like to make a point. As u have said that you believe any theist is wrong just like we think atheists r not right. But that doesnt mean ushould be rude regardless of ones owns beliefs.

I agree.

There are always people who go to the extreme, so its silly to blame the religion, when in entirety its the persons own fault for not understanding.

What about if people are members of an extreme religion that tells them to do things the rest of us think are wrong (e.g. Scientology, which discourages some of its adherents from seeing their unbelieving families)?

What about the Soviet Union? They were not theists, they were atheists with their own set of ideologies. So can I blame atheism for all wars?

Well, I don't think the Soviet Union caused "all wars", so no. Its rulers certainly made life very unpleasant for most of its population, and participated in the Cold War against the West. The Soviet Union was guided by a perverted, authoritarian form of Marxism which was, admittedly, an atheist ideology in part, but it's not remotely representative of atheism in general.

Peace

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I dont believe scientology to be a religion, its nonsense to me. I can accept even Hinduism, Buddhism to be a better religion than that. Im not trying to offend any1 btw.

 

[Pygoscelis]

What about the first community ever to exist? You think they jus came up with it out of nowhere? You would prolly say something like, they were lonely and needed somethin to believe in i suppose?

Mostly it exists because it fulfils many human emotional needs. I'll list a few.

1. It answeres the unanswerable. Many people don't like to not know things.

2. It gives people a sense of control of their lives (pray for good harvest). This is how a lot of supersticions get started.

3. It gives the downtrodden hope of a better life to come.

4. It gives victims a sense of eternal justice. It is hard for many to accept that bad people will sometimes get away with doing bad things. It is much more comfortable to believe that they will be caught and punished by the devine.

5. It programs people to behave as the ruling elite want them to. Social control is a very big force behind religion.

6. It gives people a sense of identity and communion. People like to belong to groups. This is another group to belong to. And it usually comes with a set of outgroups to scorn and look down on.

7. It gives people pride via associaton. Much like how people do this with spots teams. The team they cheer for wins (or "will" win) and they feel like they have acomplished something great (even though they weren't even in the stadium).

8. It justifies the otherwise unjustifiable. Religion has been used to sell just about every kind of attrocity you could think of.

There's just a few off the top of my head. I'm sure there are many more.

Note that though all of these explain the popularity of religions none of them give any credence to any specific religion being truth.