Contradictions in the Bible

[wilberhum]

You are assuming that Christianity was intentionally fabricated.

I think all religions were "intentionally fabricated".

 

[Tiger_Stripes]

I think all religions were "intentionally fabricated".

Yes, and unfounded assumption.

 

[wilberhum]

Yes, and unfounded assumption.

And it is an unfounded assumption that they arn't.

 

[Tiger_Stripes]

And it is an unfounded assumption that they arn't.

That is why they are known as "belief systems."

 

[don532]

still reading.....

 

[mahdisoldier19]

Speaking for myself, and most Christians I know, I do not think of the Bible as being a book "written" by God. It is the writings of men inspired by the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Word of God. Contradictions in the Bible will exist, and it doesn't disturb me at all. I don't really care if one writer says there were 10,000 people in an army and another says a million. As a student of history I can promise you that is not unusual. When it comes to the meat and potatoes of the Bible, i.e. the Word of God, the teachings of Jesus Christ, etc, I don't see a blatant contradiction.

Assalam Alaikam

As a former Catholic, i would not like the fact to know that a Perfect Creator would inspire men with a book containing contradictions, that just induces one as myself to feel that this book is nothing that i can follow, that even Contradicts today's modern science.

 

[back_to_faith]

What a distortion of what was said. False and insignificant are not the same. It is insignificant whether there were 10,000 people in an army or a million. It was a big army. You hold that the Quran is the exact word of god. That is not what Christians say about the Bible. So your conclusions are based on erroneous assumptions.

What a muddle!!

You assumed Minor errors do not change the meaning of the text, or the spiritual message behind it

how can we go to the Bible for spiritual truth if there are errors in the Bible. If the Bible has errors, who is going to decide which words are true, and which are not?
If God can work through a sinful woman to give us the sinless, incarnate Word, he can surely work through fallible men to give us the inerrant, written Word.
You still believe christians claiming that the Bible is not the Exact word of God?
The Bible claims that it is 100% (including the so called insignificant parts)true and inspired,
Paul notes in 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 that the Holy Spirit (1) searched out the deep things of God, (2) revealed them to the prophets and apostles, (3) motivated these men to write them down, and (4) guided them as they wrote.
It is inconceivable that the Holy Spirit should go to such trouble and then abandon his work to the ravages of time and the vagaries of men.

2 Timothy 3:16 ... "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness.

you believe christians but ignore What the Bible claims about itself!!

Once conceding there are errors in the Bible, you have opened a Pandora's Box. How do you know which parts are true if you admit some parts are false. As ICBI said: "... But this position (claiming truthfulness for those parts of the Bible where God, as opposed to men has spoken-ed). is unsound. People who think like this speak of Biblical authority, but at best they have partial Biblical authority since the parts containing errors obviously cannot be authoritative. What is worse, they cannot even tell us precisely what parts are from God and are therefore truthful and what parts are not from God and are in error. Usually they say that the "salvation parts" are from God, but they do not tell us how to separate these from the non-salvation parts." (Does Errancy Matter by James Boice, page 8)


The Biblical problems are not minor in nature dear ,the current Bible is contradicting in every manner...Aside the minor contradictions with your words, the teachings of New and Old testaments are contradicting.
If you wish we can talk about "major" errors, contradictions, and fallacies in the Bible that strikes at the root of the Christian faith either .
let's ignore your insignificant Bible copiests errors and talk about a fatal flaw in the most significant part of the Gospel (the resurrection of the savior of Humanity) ,the four inspired writers contradict each others in almost all narratives of the resurrection . my question to those who think that there are no inconsistencies in the important parts like the resurrection
narratives is a simple one:

If Mary Magdalene had been told by an angel that Jesus had risen and if she had even seen Jesus and touched him after leaving the tomb, Matthew 28:1.10
why did she go tell Peter that the body of Jesus had been stolen?John 20:1

Compare Matthew narrative with John:

Matthew 28:1-10
1After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
2There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. 4The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.
5The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. 7Then go quickly and tell his disciples: 'He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you."
8So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. 10Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me."


John 20:1.3

1Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. 2So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don't know where they have put him!"

wish someone here try to clear up such gross contradiction.

 

[Keltoi]

Assalam Alaikam

As a former Catholic, i would not like the fact to know that a Perfect Creator would inspire men with a book containing contradictions, that just induces one as myself to feel that this book is nothing that i can follow, that even Contradicts today's modern science.

This seems to stem from the belief of Muslims that the Quran is the literal word of God, as if everything in the book came from God's "mouth", so to speak. Christians do not believe this in relation to the Bible. It is a collection of writings by men. The majority of contradictions are limited to numerical figures and some place names and so forth. This will occur when writings are translated and copied for two thousand years. As I stated earlier, what is important for me are the teachings of Jesus Christ and the message of salvation within. What does it matter to me and my relationship with God whether an army had 10,000 or a million soldiers? It does not.

 

[Keltoi]

What a muddle!!

You assumed Minor errors do not change the meaning of the text, or the spiritual message behind it

how can we go to the Bible for spiritual truth if there are errors in the Bible. If the Bible has errors, who is going to decide which words are true, and which are not?
If God can work through a sinful woman to give us the sinless, incarnate Word, he can surely work through fallible men to give us the inerrant, written Word.
You still believe christians claiming that the Bible is not the Exact word of God?
The Bible claims that it is 100% (including the so called insignificant parts)true and inspired,
Paul notes in 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 that the Holy Spirit (1) searched out the deep things of God, (2) revealed them to the prophets and apostles, (3) motivated these men to write them down, and (4) guided them as they wrote.
It is inconceivable that the Holy Spirit should go to such trouble and then abandon his work to the ravages of time and the vagaries of men.

2 Timothy 3:16 ... "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness.

you believe christians but ignore What the Bible claims about itself!!

Once conceding there are errors in the Bible, you have opened a Pandora's Box. How do you know which parts are true if you admit some parts are false. As ICBI said: "... But this position (claiming truthfulness for those parts of the Bible where God, as opposed to men has spoken-ed). is unsound. People who think like this speak of Biblical authority, but at best they have partial Biblical authority since the parts containing errors obviously cannot be authoritative. What is worse, they cannot even tell us precisely what parts are from God and are therefore truthful and what parts are not from God and are in error. Usually they say that the "salvation parts" are from God, but they do not tell us how to separate these from the non-salvation parts." (Does Errancy Matter by James Boice, page 8)


The Biblical problems are not minor in nature dear ,the current Bible is contradicting in every manner...Aside the minor contradictions with your words, the teachings of New and Old testaments are contradicting.
If you wish we can talk about "major" errors, contradictions, and fallacies in the Bible that strikes at the root of the Christian faith either .
let's ignore your insignificant Bible copiests errors and talk about a fatal flaw in the most significant part of the Gospel (the resurrection of the savior of Humanity) ,the four inspired writers contradict each others in almost all narratives of the resurrection . my question to those who think that there are no inconsistencies in the important parts like the resurrection
narratives is a simple one:

If Mary Magdalene had been told by an angel that Jesus had risen and if she had even seen Jesus and touched him after leaving the tomb, Matthew 28:1.10
why did she go tell Peter that the body of Jesus had been stolen?John 20:1

Compare Matthew narrative with John:

Matthew 28:1-10
1After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
2There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. 4The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.
5The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. 7Then go quickly and tell his disciples: 'He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you."
8So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. 10Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me."


John 20:1.3

1Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. 2So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don't know where they have put him!"

wish someone here try to clear up such gross contradiction.

Each of the gospels adds details that help complete the STORY OF THE RESURRECTION. The order appears to be as follows: A large group of women had observed the crucifixion of Jesus (Matthew 27:55), followed the process of His burial (Luke 23:55) and then went to prepare spices and ointments for Him. They rest on the Sabbath and then return in two groups on Sunday (Luke 24:1). Mary Magdalene, Mary (supposed to be the mother of James and Joses), and Salome start out ahead while it is still dark (John 20:1), looking for someone to roll away the stone (Mark 16:3). They are amazed to see the stone taken away and the tomb appearing empty. Without going inside, Mary Magdalene runs off to tell the disciples that someone stole the body (John 20:2). The other two women proceed to go into the tomb and see an angel (Mark 16:5). This same angel who had earlier appeared to the guards and rolled the stone away now speaks to them (Matthew 28:5-7), instructing them to go tell the disciples. They flee out of the tomb in great fear, too frightened to go tell the disciples (Mark 16:8). Meanwhile Peter was informed by Mary Magdalene and runs to see the empty tomb for himself (Luke 24:12), followed by John (John 20:3). Mary Magdalene also returns behind them and remains weeping after they leave (John 20:11). Two angels appear to comfort her and Jesus Himself comes to her (John 20:12-14 and Mark 16:9). Afterward, She returns to the disciples to share the further news (John 20:18). Meanwhile the frightened Salome and Mary regroup with the rest of the women carrying the spices and go to the tomb. Finding it empty, they stand perplexed (Luke 24:4). Then two angels appear to the full group and explain in greater detail the news of the resurrection (Luke 24:4-9). Afterwards, they ALL go back to the disciples (Luke 24:10 and Matthew 28:8). On the way, Jesus himself meets them and comforts them further (Matthew 28:9-10).



Given the fact that each gospel writer focuses on a different piece of the story (ie John ignores the other women and just records the Mary Magdalene experience), one can not blame people for being puzzled. However, this is the reason that this vital pinnacle of all history is recorded from four different perspectives. It gives us a much more complete picture of the Messiah.

 

[ManchesterFolk]

Thank you Eesa.

I do not know yet which category I belong to. I want to study the contradictions and think and pray on this. There is a lot here to read and Scriptures to look up. Peace.

Learn hebrew. The Jews seem to laugh at these.

 

[back_to_faith]

Each of the gospels adds details that help complete the STORY OF THE RESURRECTION. The order appears to be as follows: A large group of women had observed the crucifixion of Jesus (Matthew 27:55), followed the process of His burial (Luke 23:55) and then went to prepare spices and ointments for Him. They rest on the Sabbath and then return in two groups on Sunday (Luke 24:1). Mary Magdalene, Mary (supposed to be the mother of James and Joses), and Salome start out ahead while it is still dark (John 20:1), looking for someone to roll away the stone (Mark 16:3). They are amazed to see the stone taken away and the tomb appearing empty. Without going inside, Mary Magdalene runs off to tell the disciples that someone stole the body (John 20:2). The other two women proceed to go into the tomb and see an angel (Mark 16:5). This same angel who had earlier appeared to the guards and rolled the stone away now speaks to them (Matthew 28:5-7), instructing them to go tell the disciples. They flee out of the tomb in great fear, too frightened to go tell the disciples (Mark 16:8). Meanwhile Peter was informed by Mary Magdalene and runs to see the empty tomb for himself (Luke 24:12), followed by John (John 20:3). Mary Magdalene also returns behind them and remains weeping after they leave (John 20:11). Two angels appear to comfort her and Jesus Himself comes to her (John 20:12-14 and Mark 16:9). Afterward, She returns to the disciples to share the further news (John 20:18). Meanwhile the frightened Salome and Mary regroup with the rest of the women carrying the spices and go to the tomb. Finding it empty, they stand perplexed (Luke 24:4). Then two angels appear to the full group and explain in greater detail the news of the resurrection (Luke 24:4-9). Afterwards, they ALL go back to the disciples (Luke 24:10 and Matthew 28:8). On the way, Jesus himself meets them and comforts them further (Matthew 28:9-10).



Given the fact that each gospel writer focuses on a different piece of the story (ie John ignores the other women and just records the Mary Magdalene experience), one can not blame people for being puzzled. However, this is the reason that this vital pinnacle of all history is recorded from four different perspectives. It gives us a much more complete picture of the Messiah.

Greetings Don ,that is great!! here we gonna deal with the serious points in the Bible narratives .

I will comment only on the part that relates to my Question, Do you remember my question? again i repeat it

If Mary Magdalene had been told by an angel that Jesus had risen and if she had even seen Jesus and touched him after leaving the tomb, Matthew 28:1.10 why did she go tell Peter that the body of Jesus had been stolen?John 20:1.3

I didn,t want to see a harmonization to all the resurrection narratives .at least now ..only one point..
your post was:
Mary Magdalene, Mary (supposed to be the mother of James and Joses), and Salome start out ahead while it is still dark (John 20:1), looking for someone to roll away the stone (Mark 16:3). They are amazed to see the stone taken away and the tomb appearing empty. Without going inside, Mary Magdalene runs off to tell the disciples that someone stole the body (John 20:2).

that is a pure conjecture !!! Mary Magdalena according to Matthew 28:5

not only heard an angel announce that Jesus had risen and that she ran from the tomb with great joy after hearing this ,but also she met Jesus and touched him after she had run from the tomb on her way to tell the disciples that to go to Galilee; there they will see the resurrected Jesus.
so claiming that Mary Magdalena ran off to tell the disciples that someone stole the body without going inside the tomb is wholly without merit in the light of Matthew's narrative 28:5.10

Hope it is clear for you dear Don ..and try to find another logical solution in order to go on fruitful discussion.
take care

sorry Keltoi thought your post is don's pardon me

 

[Grace Seeker]

The principle of falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus (false in one thing, false in everything) is certainly applicable to the errors under discussion.

How about I consider this statement itself to be false? Truly, there are errors in the present copy of the Bible that we have today. But that does not make it false. I understand that there are many, both Christians and non-Christians who expect something called the word of God to be inerrant. But I do not, and I have no problem with that. Some of the errors are simple scribal or copist errors. How are these dealt with, well just as Islam has a science for ascertaining the veracity of hadiths, so too does Christianity have a science -- it's called textual criticism -- by which is evaluates variant readings to ascertain the most likely original manuscript. Can we be 100% certain they have it right? No, we cannot. Can we be certain enough to know that we have the basic message that was intended? Yes we can. Also, as a rule of interpretation and application of scripture, I always caution people never to come up with some criticial point of theology on the basis of one isolated text. The Bible repeats the same message regarding God over and over again throughout its pages. So, when we hear the same basic message given that often from that many different source writers, we develop a great deal of confidence in it. Great indeed I would say, than I would have in the ability of one man to be given a message from God, and remember it to recite to others later and not have perhaps left something out. How would anyone who didn't hear the message themselves know whether what was recited was what was originally given? They have no way to know that a mistake wasn't made, perhaps a whole section forgotten, and never recorded.

 

[don532]

Hope it is clear for you dear Don ..and try to find another logical solution in order to go on fruitful discussion.
take care

I think this discussion is rather fruitful....for me. I apologize if my questions seem repetitive or annoying. I am only asking so I may understand Islam, and my questions do get rather specific, I know. I apologize if this causes offense. I do not intend to offend.

 

[mahdisoldier19]

This seems to stem from the belief of Muslims that the Quran is the literal word of God, as if everything in the book came from God's "mouth", so to speak. Christians do not believe this in relation to the Bible. It is a collection of writings by men. The majority of contradictions are limited to numerical figures and some place names and so forth. This will occur when writings are translated and copied for two thousand years. As I stated earlier, what is important for me are the teachings of Jesus Christ and the message of salvation within. What does it matter to me and my relationship with God whether an army had 10,000 or a million soldiers? It does not.

I am not talking about that, i am talking about the scientific Aspects of the Bible, they do not even admit to Present day Established Science.

 

[Keltoi]

I am not talking about that, i am talking about the scientific Aspects of the Bible, they do not even admit to Present day Established Science.

It might help if you gave an example of what you're referring to.

 

[mahdisoldier19]

It might help if you gave an example of what you're referring to.

I suggest you watch the William Campbell- Zakir Naik Debate

If after that whole debate your not convinced, Then i do not know what to tell you.

 

[Trumble]

You assumed Minor errors do not change the meaning of the text, or the spiritual message behind it

how can we go to the Bible for spiritual truth if there are errors in the Bible. If the Bible has errors, who is going to decide which words are true, and which are not?

They don't change the meaning of the spiritual message. The perception that they might is a purely muslim one, based on the falacy that the Bible is supposed to be the literal, unchanged word of God in the same way the Qur'an is supposed to be. But it is not, or at least very few Christians now believe it is. Wesley is dead, and the rest can defend their own corner. It is a series of separate works written by different people, some of which reflect previous oral traditions, across a very long period of time. Of course such 'errors' and 'contradictions' will occur.

But how big an army was, or what the centurion might have said, or even the precise words Jesus might have used simply do not matter. Nobody has to decide which is 'true' and which is not. Even to this non-Christian, the message of the New Testament (I am much less familiar with the old) is clear. It's yet another argument that is a 'killer' for muslims but irrelevant to the intended target. It only works if you already believe that the Qur'an is the direct word of God. Christians do not; if they did they would be muslims!

 

[Umar001]

Learn hebrew. The Jews seem to laugh at these.

You mean to tell me that you think its worth studying hebrew to then only come up with illogical explanations that one text says something which it doesn't in order to reconcile contradictions then boy some are really out to extert themselves.

 

[Umar001]

This seems to stem from the belief of Muslims that the Quran is the literal word of God, as if everything in the book came from God's "mouth", so to speak. Christians do not believe this in relation to the Bible. It is a collection of writings by men. The majority of contradictions are limited to numerical figures and some place names and so forth. This will occur when writings are translated and copied for two thousand years. As I stated earlier, what is important for me are the teachings of Jesus Christ and the message of salvation within. What does it matter to me and my relationship with God whether an army had 10,000 or a million soldiers? It does not.

Ok, so let me ask, if mistakes have found their way into the Bible, as I understand you to have said, what gives you certainty, or reliability that the true picture of Jesus has been produced within the Biblical Scripture?

They don't change the meaning of the spiritual message. The perception that they might is a purely muslim one, based on the falacy that the Bible is supposed to be the literal, unchanged word of God in the same way the Qur'an is supposed to be. But it is not, or at least very few Christians now believe it is. Wesley is dead, and the rest can defend their own corner. It is a series of separate works written by different people, some of which reflect previous oral traditions, across a very long period of time. Of course such 'errors' and 'contradictions' will occur.

But how big an army was, or what the centurion might have said, or even the precise words Jesus might have used simply do not matter. Nobody has to decide which is 'true' and which is not. Even to this non-Christian, the message of the New Testament (I am much less familiar with the old) is clear. It's yet another argument that is a 'killer' for muslims but irrelevant to the intended target. It only works if you already believe that the Qur'an is the direct word of God. Christians do not; if they did they would be muslims!

First I'd just like to focous on something, the part 'or even the precise words Jesus mighth ave used simply do not matter' well, I know alot of Christians who would disagree, why? Because they take words or phrases and expound on them themselfs, they ask 'why did Jesus use these exact words?...I'll tell you why' and how many a sermons have I heard like this!

As for whether mistakes can change the message, even if I agree that they cannot, it would at least show that there is error, and how would a man then have pure certainty that the message has been preserved? If they were working from Oral Tradition how would we be sure that they picked the truth from it and left the falsehood from such traditions?

 

[back_to_faith]

They don't change the meaning of the spiritual message. The perception that they might is a purely muslim one, based on the falacy that the Bible is supposed to be the literal, unchanged word of God in the same way the Qur'an is supposed to be. But it is not, or at least very few Christians now believe it is. Wesley is dead, and the rest can defend their own corner. It is a series of separate works written by different people, some of which reflect previous oral traditions, across a very long period of time. Of course such 'errors' and 'contradictions' will occur.

But how big an army was, or what the centurion might have said, or even the precise words Jesus might have used simply do not matter. Nobody has to decide which is 'true' and which is not. Even to this non-Christian, the message of the New Testament (I am much less familiar with the old) is clear. It's yet another argument that is a 'killer' for muslims but irrelevant to the intended target. It only works if you already believe that the Qur'an is the direct word of God. Christians do not; if they did they would be muslims!

there we go again !!
My friend, all you know about Jesus comes from Scripture. The validity of Jesus depends upon the validity, reliability and accuracy of Scripture.
how do you know Jesus except as he is presented to you in the Bible? If the Bible is not God's Word and does not present a picture of Jesus Christ that can be trusted, how do you know it is the true Christ you are following? You may be worshipping a Christ of your own imagination." (Does Errancy Matter by James Boice, page 24)

It is crystal clear for me that the posts of non muslims in such topic (Bible contradictions)are negative, and they repeat themselves with the straw ('errors' and 'contradictions' doesn't matter)!!!
so from now and on I will reply only to the positive,direct posts that relate only to the topic(clearing up Bible contradictions).