which religion ( for Agnostics and theists-- eh maybe Atheists?)

[barney]

you are making an assumption here. an agnostic who believes in god, but not religion can indeed do things with intent, as well as give thanks to god.

It all comes down to the Theist Agnostic's relationship with the creator. Does the Agnostic beleive that their good intents will be noticed and rewarded here or in the hereafter? Are they acting to impress the deitey? Are they acting out of adherence to their own morals?

 

[جوري]

you are making an assumption here. an agnostic who believes in god, but not religion can indeed do things with intent, as well as give thanks to god.

Yes snake but under the name of what? when such charitable contributions and prayers and pilgrimage and fast were originally mandated by religion.. I mean these are the fundamental rituals of organized religion-- unless a person makes up their own rituals?

peace!

 

[barney]

I actually would welcome a debate for all openly to see so long as it is your own work

Studies and research have to come from books or sites, otherwise they are just personal opinions.
Thanks but personally , I would not join a open debate for the reasons given above.

My attesting is based on my research. It's my findings, and it's of course not 100% provable, but it for me holds the balance of probability far in excess of any religion proving their divine inspiration.
I dont expect it to "take effect", people are obviously free to make their own minds up.

As I say, I am happy to debate through PM's , but if not then please accept my word that I am not in the habit of making "sweeping Generalisations" based upon nothing but prejudice.

peace

 

[جوري]

Studies and research have to come from books or sites, otherwise they are just personal opinions.
Thanks but personally , I would not join a open debate for the reasons given above.

My attesting is based on my research. It's my findings, and it's of course not 100% provable, but it for me holds the balance of probability far in excess of any religion proving their divine inspiration.
I dont expect it to "take effect", people are obviously free to make their own minds up.

As I say, I am happy to debate through PM's , but if not then please accept my word that I am not in the habit of making "sweeping Generalisations" based upon nothing but prejudice.

peace

it is your word against what you have actually written... How can I accept something, that I know not to be true, also based on research and probability and at the same time accept that you are not making a sweeping generalization? if you are not in the mood to get into a long refutation I can understand and respect that... Sometimes you don't want to put an effort into something... not every project proves fruitful!

 

[snakelegs]

Yes snake but under the name of what? when such charitable contributions and prayers and pilgrimage and fast were originally mandated by religion.. I mean these are the fundamental rituals of organized religion-- unless a person makes up their own rituals?

peace!

for example, there is nothing to prevent a person from lighting a candle and focusing on god. no religious dogma or rituals are necessary to turn one's thoughts to god. you can bow or prostrate to god without being muslim.
you can pray to god not because it says you have to in a book. you can give thanks to god without following any prescribed ritual.
you do not have to do these things in the name of a religion. you do not have to do these things at all. personally, i do not believe that god needs us or needs us to worship him - i think prayer is not for god's sake, but for the sake of the person praying.
of course as far as following certain laws - such as giving to charity or making haj are specifically religious acts, obeying religious commandments.
there is no law that compels me to give to charity for example and when i do give it is not because of hope for future reward or avoiding future punishment or because a book says i have to.

 

[snakelegs]

It all comes down to the Theist Agnostic's relationship with the creator. Does the Agnostic beleive that their good intents will be noticed and rewarded here or in the hereafter? Are they acting to impress the deitey? Are they acting out of adherence to their own morals?

good point.

 

[barney]

Oh I'm happy to put the work in! I'd rather debate that than endlessly trawing through webcomics.

Your knowlage that "Its not true" is cemented in faith. For a debate to occur then you would have to take a step into unbiased rationalism, and thats tricky, nay, near impossible for a faithful person. My reluctance for open debate is that it necessitates taking a path down areas that are uncomfortable. and almost certainly not within the grounds of forum rules.

As for the fruitfulness of it, meh...who knows! As I say, I'm very happy to continue it within these grounds. as for "how can you accept it", the easy answer is Dont!
Just file it away under misguided agnostic nonsense!

 

[جوري]

the sole purpose of prayer in Islam and from whence comes the name salat (silah) as in connection.. it isn't mandated because G-D needs your prayer... it is that you have a relationship with him... the term (selat Ar rahem) denotes --to maintain a relationship with your family and even (rahem) which is a derivative of G-D's name Ar rahman comes from mercy... it is profound to me-- when I think of the terminology alone in Arabic... let alone the comfort from this act... I can't say every prayer I make is sincere or my best.. but just the fact that I do it makes me feel like I have a chance of renewal, that I can be better at it... that so long as there is life there is this connection.. there is mercy... there is a chance to make it stronger if I didn't do my best for maghrib... I can do my best for Ish'a and so on--it is spiritually and psychologically very satisfying to most who do it... and those who don't love it... it is a burden... hence Allah has descried the act of prayer as a big deal save for those who are humbled!

وَاسْتَعِينُواْ بِالصَّبْرِ وَالصَّلاَةِ وَإِنَّهَا لَكَبِيرَةٌ إِلاَّ عَلَى الْخَاشِعِينَ {45}​

[Yusufali 2:45] Nay, seek (Allah's) help with patient perseverance and prayer: It is indeed hard, except to those who bring a lowly spirit,-
[Pickthal 2:45] Seek help in patience and prayer; and truly it is hard save for the humble-minded,


*****
peace!

 

[Gator]

I'd pick Sikh. Out of all the major religions I find this one most interesting in its philosophical and cultural differences. Lack of belief in the existence of dieties is a large hurdle, plus some of the traditional aspects (I guess I'd be a reformed Sikh).

 

[barney]

the sole purpose of prayer in Islam and from whence comes the name salat (silah) as in connection.. it isn't mandated because G-D needs your prayer... it is that you have a relationship with him... *****
peace!

But on his nights journey, Allah told Mohammed he ordained 50 prayers a day, then it was reduced several times to 40 then 30 and finally was reduced to 5.
Over a billion muslims are required to pray 5 times a day.
I would argue that God indeed DID tell muslims that he wanted their prayers.

 

[جوري]

Oh I'm happy to put the work in! I'd rather debate that than endlessly trawing through webcomics.

Your knowlage that "Its not true" is cemented in faith. For a debate to occur then you would have to take a step into unbiased rationalism, and thats tricky, nay, near impossible for a faithful person. My reluctance for open debate is that it necessitates taking a path down areas that are uncomfortable. and almost certainly not within the grounds of forum rules.

As for the fruitfulness of it, meh...who knows! As I say, I'm very happy to continue it within these grounds. as for "how can you accept it", the easy answer is Dont!
Just file it away under misguided agnostic nonsense!

There is where you make a mistake.. you assume that since I speak Arabic, and am Muslim that I can't be unbiased... but I have actually been where you have been... obviously I can't distil my experience down to a post... I have lived quite a large chunk of my life in doubt and everything freely accessible to me ( as it is still) actually-- and just like any Muslim can-- it would be fairly easy for me to live any life style I choose for myself.

I know Muslims who are alot less conservative in every sense of the words than many westerners I know. I am where I am today not because of my parents or background.. but a product of 6 yrs worth of studying and reflection which honestly in my state of mind could have gone either way.

I don't have this fear that something untoward will happen to me if I don't pray or fast... I am actually happily doing them... And I think you'll find that most Muslims once they are mature enough and freely practicing will tell you that it is indeed a privilege not some difficult life sentence.

Anyhow-- it might be a bit miserable for me to admit, but I don't think of the forum or its cyber inhabitants the minute I turn it off my computer... to be perfectly frank how people practice or what they think doesn't affect me one way or the other --converting people is never a goal of mine --in fact admittedly some people I am actually rather glad they have nothing to do with religion. I wouldn't think of their conversion as a gain at all-- I am happy to see a conversion when it happens with sincere folks... but I am not foolish enough to think that change comes from what people tell you in a debate rather than deep refection and inner search!

peace!

 

[snakelegs]

the sole purpose of prayer in Islam and from whence comes the name salat (silah) as in connection.. it isn't mandated because G-D needs your prayer... it is that you have a relationship with him... the term (selat Ar rahem) denotes --to maintain a relationship with your family and even (rahem) which is a derivative of G-D's name Ar rahman comes from mercy... it is profound to me-- when I think of the terminology alone in Arabic... let alone the comfort from this act... I can't say every prayer I make is sincere or my best.. but just the fact that I do it makes me feel like I have a chance of renewal, that I can be better at it... that so long as there is life there is this connection.. there is mercy... there is a chance to make it stronger if I didn't do my best for maghrib... I can do my best for Ish'a and so on--it is spiritually and psychologically very satisfying to most who do it... and those who don't love it... it is a burden... hence Allah has descried the act of prayer as a big deal save for those who are humbled!

وَاسْتَعِينُواْ بِالصَّبْرِ وَالصَّلاَةِ وَإِنَّهَا لَكَبِيرَةٌ إِلاَّ عَلَى الْخَاشِعِينَ {45}​

[Yusufali 2:45] Nay, seek (Allah's) help with patient perseverance and prayer: It is indeed hard, except to those who bring a lowly spirit,-
[Pickthal 2:45] Seek help in patience and prayer; and truly it is hard save for the humble-minded,


*****
peace!

i never knew the word salat came from a word meaning "connection". guess it's the same root as silsila. that's really cool. you know and meditate on the profound meanings of the words in arabic, which would certainly add a whole deeper dimension.
but still, prayer is required in islam. in fact, some say that to deliberately not pray makes you an apostate. i would think that this would cause some people to pray out of fear. i would rather pray spontaneously because i feel moved to try to connect.

 

[جوري]

But on his nights journey, Allah told Mohammed he ordained 50 prayers a day, then it was reduced several times to 40 then 30 and finally was reduced to 5.
Over a billion muslims are required to pray 5 times a day.
I would argue that God indeed DID tell muslims that he wanted their prayers.

I have already quoted you from the Quran what prayer is or means... why would I accept your analysis of it over what I believe to be the word of G-D?

peace..

P.S: look up what the word Salah and (selah) means in Arabic... I think in the meaning of the word is sufficient as a proof

 

[barney]

Absolutley!

I'm personally not on a quest to convert people to agnosticism, but i definatly dont shy away from my beleifs and can back them up.

My point about faith acting as a block, is that , once you have true FAITH, rather than just saying "im a Muslim" or "Im Church of England", then with that comes certain acceptances. The acceptance that scriptures are divinely inspired is core to this and debates otherwise invariably spiral to "God-knows-best" or "It is written" and as I'm sure you will remember rom your pre-reversion to Islam, veiwed by agnostics and atheists as circular logic.

Anyway, please dont feel that i am insulting your personal intelligence or objectivity, and as i say, feel free to continue this off thread if you like.

regards

 

[جوري]

i never knew the word salat came from a word meaning "connection". guess it's the same root as silsila. that's really cool. you know and meditate on the profound meanings of the words in arabic, which would certainly add a whole deeper dimension.
but still, prayer is required in islam. in fact, some say that to deliberately not pray makes you an apostate. i would think that this would cause some people to pray out of fear. i would rather pray spontaneously because i feel moved to try to connect.

Prayer is in fact what makes the difference between us and the kuffar-- it is true! a constant connection is needed (mandated)
I didn't pray for yrs... my parents tried everything... fear.. punishment .. the more they tried the more refractory I became... and that is why the verse states it is (kabeera) literally big (overwhelming) except for those who are humble... in fact You can always fake you are praying it isn't so difficult.. the same for fasting-- if you are not willingly doing it, do you think it matters? it has to come from the heart to be accepted anyway... when you are young you should get into the habit, sort of like washing your hands before dindin... but to actually perform it, the level you do for a deep connection with G-D is something achieved by so few do at that great a level of dedication... but like I said with every prayer is a chance to improve and ask forgiveness... G-D can be your friend. I don't think many people understand what that means... or how profound it is.

peace!

 

[barney]

I have already quoted you from the Quran what prayer is or means... why would I accept your analysis of it over what I believe to be the word of G-D?

peace..

P.S: look up what the word Salah and (selah) means in Arabic... I think in the meaning of the word is sufficient as a proof

I wasnt debating that prayer is beleved to be a connection, just refering to the hadiths that tell of Mohammed explaining Gods requirements for prayer. Indicating that he needed prayer. If He diddnt need prayer...why set a obligation on it? Why not just reveal to Mohammed that prayer was good and would be well received.

 

[جوري]

I wasnt debating that prayer is beleved to be a connection, just refering to the hadiths that tell of Mohammed explaining Gods requirements for prayer. Indicating that he needed prayer. If He diddnt need prayer...why set a obligation on it? Why not just reveal to Mohammed that prayer was good and would be well received.

G-D doesn't need our prayer... I am too tired to search for the verse now --I don't know all the chapters by heart as to readily search... however there is are many denoting if you perform rituals you are really doing it for yourself... prayer is meant as your means for communicating with G-D certainly not because G-D needs it!... G-D is above what you ascribe to him!

Think of the world around you... from the tiniest biochemical process going on in a cell, to the magistrate of all those twinkly stars in heaven you might take your kids out on a cool summer night exploring... to the beauty in a field of poppy or the incandescence of fireflies to the delicate movements of fragile tiny birds (My G-D if that doesn't move you)?... all created so you truly may reflect and give thanks and maintain a relationship to the one who bestowed all beauty on you... do you think he who created all this glory really cares what one petty human thinks?-- a hadith Qudsi states
will not encompass me all that is in my heaven or earth... but will encompass me the heart of one devout servant...The choice is yours....I don't know how to make it any more clear.. you want to see it from one stance... I see it from another.. Just as I see someone who studies diligently all year long to have an obvious better outcome from someone who slacks off all year long. Do you think it fair that they both should end up with the same grade at the end? or that murder and love are equal? or that prayer or non prayer are the same thing? Just the psychological impact from prayer is the equivalent of taking one SSRI minus the harmful side affects... I have posted the study from JAMA under health and science section... it is actually good for you on both ends... Why all these walks around the block to make it seem another nefarious religious obligation?

peace!

 

[Trumble]

Bhuddism. It's about the development of the self and dosn't need a deitey. It both teaches and practices peace. It's scriptures dont need to be followed, you have to understand yourself, not convoluted messages wrapped in ancient politics. You can leave when you want without getting stoned to death or excommunicated to "hell".
It dosnt have fiery brimstone or shirts of pitch, It's based on the teachings of a man who diddnt say he was talking for the creator of the universe, which to me is a streach. Theres literally no compulsion in it, it promotes freedom of beleif and dosnt claim its the best or that its followers are super-people and others misguided or "hell"bound. It's not even a religion.

Mostly true, apart from the last sentence! Buddhism is as much a religion as the others; 'dictionary' definitions of 'religion' that insist on God or gods are considered unsatisfactory by all serious students of religious studies (and emerge from theist cultures anyway!)

Ninian Smart's definition is the best;

Experience - "Religious experience," very non-ordinary
Social - More than one person claiming Experience
Narrative - Story of Experience for later participants
Dogma - Beliefs, must be rational and logical within entire system
Ethical - Behaviours that correspond to beliefs
Ritual - Repeated access to Experience
Material - Material manifestation for participants.

Buddhism is a way of life AND a religion, as are all the others if actually followed. Anything else is just ticking a box on the census form, not practising a religion. "It's scriptures don't need to be followed" is true in that there is no compulsion, and the Buddha's own recommendation about his teaching were that people just 'try it and see if it works for you'. But if you do not accept the Four Noble Truths and try to follow the Eightfold Path you are not a Buddhist. There is immense variety in later Buddhist teachings, but all share that common core from Zen to Shingon, and everything in between.



To answer the question, 'none of the above' really. The mainstream monotheist options are out as as time goes on I just consider the concept of God as described in assorted scriptures to be less and less plausible. It bears no relation to the world I experience, and is clearly a human construction grasping, with limited success (it's still an awful lot better than nothing), to find that one Reality that must be there. I have much more sympathy towards naturalistic pantheism ideas and philosophical Daoism - which I would have chosen had it been on the list - and really some of each is already included in my own personal beliefs. Like Buddhism, those ideas make sense to me and reflect my personal experience of existence.

 

[barney]

Tired here too. Night shifts are killers.

I'd like to skip past the description of the creators works, because I know that nature is fantastic, and i know that the world is an amazing place. If I prayed , then I would want it to be on the level you describe. That fits nicely with what I beleive connection with a deity could be...if I ever found it or indeed searched for it.

Simply put, Islam's teachings from the Hadiths demonstrate that Allah made prayer obligitory on beleivers. Its a piller of Islam! Hence, when he ordained it...he wanted prayer...and he wanted it 50 times/day later reduced to 5/day. This is orthodox teaching, and I'm struggeling to understand what the problem with that is? It can surely still be a deep spiritual connection even if God has stated that he wants it?

regards

 

[جوري]

^^to put it to you in a nutshell. ..it is your religious duty whether 50 or 5.. but G-D certainly doesn't need it from you.. need being the operative word. G-D doesn't have needs or wants for anything from you or others ... ... Anymore than I have the need or the want to know how your night shift is a killer...it is sort of like you earning your keep in the hereafter.. this is the work you do for your permanent retirement so to speak..I need to sleep
gnight

peace!